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    Default Psychiatry is a subversive fake? The Thud Experiment


    Transcript:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    "He was called David Rosenhan and he devised a dramatic experiment. He assembled 8 people, including himself, none of whom had ever had any psychiatric problems.

    Each person was sent across the country to a specific mental hospital. At an agreed time, they all presented themselves at their hospital and told the psychiatrist on duty they were hearing a voice in their head that said the word "Thud". That was the only lie they should tell otherwise they were to behave and respond completely normally."

    Question - "and then what happened?"
    David Rosenhan - "They were all diagnosed as insane and admitted to the hospital."
    Question - "All of them?"
    David Rosenhan - "All of them."
    Question - "And were any of them insane?"
    David Rosenhan - "No. There was nobody who could have judged these people as insane. ... but I told friends, I told my family, I get out when I get out; that's all. Be there for a couple of days and then I get out. Nobody knew I would be there for 2 months!"
    Commentator - "Once admitted, all 8 fake patients acted completely normally yet the hospitals refused to release them and diagnosed 7 as suffering from schizophrenia and one from bipolar disorder. They were all given powerful psychotropic drugs.
    They found there was nothing they could do to convince the doctors they were sane and it quickly became clear that the only way out would be to agree that they were insane and then pretend to be getting better.
    David Rosenhan - "The only way out was to point out that they're correct. They said I was insane, I am insane, but I am getting better. That was an affirmation of their view of me."
    Commentator - "When Rosenhan finally got out and reported the experiment, there was an uproar. He was accused of trickery and deceit and one major hospital challenged him to send some more fakes to him, guaranteeing that they would spot them this time.
    Rosenhan agreed and after a month, the hospital proudly announced that they had discovered 41 fakes. Rosenhan then revealed that he had sent no-one to the hospital.
    The effect of The Thud Experiment was a disaster for American psychiatry. It destroyed the idea that they were a privileged elite with specialist knowledge.
    But those in charge realised that psychiatry could not just give up. Another way had to be found of understanding and managing people's inner feelings in modern society."

    I know the voice of the narrator to be a BBC reporter narrating various BBC reports (i.e "the power of nightmares").
    There are hundreds of critical texts exposing Sigmund Freud to be a dangerous fraud, causing the sexualisation of children and subversion of them as of society.Here´s an interesting book from amazon of which I quote in part a reader´s comment

    Freudian Fraud: The Malignant Effect of Freud's Theory on American Thought and Culture


    The Malignant Effect of Freud's Theory on American Thought and Culture_ by psychiatrist E. Fuller Torrey traces the role of Freudian theory (particularly that concerning the role of sex in childhood development) in American culture and thought. Freud postulated that the behavior of children was sexual in nature and maintained a highly dogmatic position about such notions as the Oedipus complex throughout his life. This book examines the harmful role of Freudian theory in American culture. Torrey argues that Freudian theory is not only unscientific but has been harmful leading to a culture of narcissism and irresponsibility.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Torrey begins by discussing Freud's practice as a psychoanalyst. Freud was very influenced by occult ideas, including numerology as well as the idea of his fellow physician Wilhelm Fliess that the nose is linked to human sexuality. This led Freud to operate on the nose of many patients, leading often to permanent disfiguration.

    In addition, Freud advocated the use of cocaine as a panacea for all physical and mental ills and took the drug heavily himself. Freud's system also was very denigrating towards women viewing the mother as the source of all mental problems and personal unhappiness. Nevertheless, because Freud openly discussed sex as the source of mental problems he became a favorite among those who advocated sexual liberation during the Victorian era. Prime among these figures was the anarchist Emma Goldman who became enthralled by Freudianism and advocated for birth control and sexual freedom. In America, Freud's ideas became linked to leftist political thought after the emigration to this country of anthropologist Franz Boas. Torrey contrasts nature and nurture showing how at the beginning of the Twentieth century rightists were associated with the nature side of the spectrum, often advocating eugenics and biological determinism as well as racialism. In contrast, leftists were associated with the nurture side of the spectrum, often appealing directly to Freud to show that social problems were rooted in child rearing methods. Cultural relativists like Franz Boas came to advocate leftist politics while appealing to both Freud and Marx against rightists such as the racialist Madison Grant. Ruth Benedict and Margaret Mead, two of the students of Boas, became very famous with their anthropological work supposedly showing that in more "liberated" cultures adolescence was less stressful.

    Nevertheless, as Torrey shows the work of Mead in particular was heavily biased by faulty methods, she came to see in the cultures she examined exactly what she expected to see because her methods of questioning influenced her informers. Mead was a bisexual and this may have led to her adoption of Freudian theory. With the rise and fall of Adolf Hitler, the nature/nurture question became settled, making it in bad taste to argue that behaviors could be genetically determined. Torrey next devotes a chapter to the influence of Freud among various political radicals and social elites, particularly among a group of leftists in New York City who openly advocated for Trotsky. Torrey also shows how Freudian ideas became influential in both the nursery and the prison system. In the nursery, the ideas of Benjamin Spock, based on Freudian concepts, came to prevail for an entire generation. It should be remembered that before Spock mankind had been successfully raising children since time immemorial. Nevertheless, Spock would come to take a prime place among a generation of individuals. In the prison system, Freudian ideas were used often to argue that criminals were products of a dysfunctional childhood. This frequently allowed criminals such as Leopold and Loeb to be given lighter sentences and led to an abuse of the insanity defense. Indeed, the notion of personal responsibility became untenable in the light of Freudian theory. Torrey next turns his attention to the intellectual elite, including individuals like Marcuse, Goodman, and Brown who often advocated a combined Freudianism and Marxism as part of the New Left. It should be noted that although Freudianism was frequently linked to radical politics in America, that Freud himself was an elitist. Freud looked down upon lower members of society and his services were pretty much uniformly offered to only the wealthy class. Indeed, Freud refused to treat the severely mentally ill. Torrey suggests that Freudianism has led to a massive misallocation of resources, in which the most severely ill are never treated or treated with Freudian nonsense, while those who have only life complaints are given full Freudian analyses. Nevertheless, Freud must be credited for his promotion of the idea of the unconscious. Torrey also notes the similiarity of Freudian analysis to a religion, emphasizing its Jewish influence, something that cannot be overstated. Torrey concludes with two appendices in which he discusses the influence of Freud on intellectuals (...)

    After reading this book, I became more convinced than ever that Freudian ideas have been highly harmful to the psychic well-being of many Americans. In addition, the linkage between Freudian ideas and elitist leftist politics has proven disastrous for this country and for man's freedom.
    Or another source:
    Freud attributed sexual desire to children from the moment of birth. It is Freudian orthodoxy to think of children, however young and immature, as sexual beings. Their sexual feelings are malleable and can flow in any direction. Any limitation on those feelings, such as the teaching of the moral virtue of chastity, is merely irrational “repression.”
    [...]
    To quote Professor Scruton once again,“In place of integration we now have disintegration, and in place of the mature desire between adults the genital obsessions of corrupted kids.” Popular Freudianism has elevated individual freedom in the sexual arena to a paramount value. As the oft-heard slogan has it, “If it feels good, do it.”
    source

    On various occassions I read, that in any school-shooting the kids doing this were exposed to strong psychotropics beforehand- this is a little published fact by the massmedia. Jeff Weise, Columbine massacre:
    In its front page article, the Times reports: "Several residents said they believed Mr. Weise had received medication for emotional problems. T-Anna Hanson, 21, a cousin of one of his victims, said Mr. Weise had been admitted to a hospital last year for psychiatric help."
    Given the recent disclosure that scientific evidence links SSRI antidepressants to violent and suicidal behavior in adolescents, it is important to investigate what, if any, role the psychotropic drugs that had been prescribed to Jeff Weise may have played in triggering the rampage.
    *click*

    What do you think? Is psychiatry working at all? Shouldnt we take a more critical stance on this "science" and shouldnt we ask ourselves, if the US- beeing the No1 drugged nation on the planet, wouldnt better take a more hesitant stance on the issue? Is it a mere profitable scam, or more sinister: used for social engineering? Can psychiatry be made responsible -at least in part- for the moral decay in our societies?

    Your thoughts gentlemen.
    Last edited by Amagi; July 12, 2010 at 02:30 PM.
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Psychiatry is a subversive fake? The Thud Experiment

    The video is taking the experiment out of context, the experiment revealed deficiencies within the American psychiatric institutes of the time, not within psychiatry in general. Also, I take great offense at the part where the video makes the claim that "madness was simply a convenient label to lock away those who want to break free", I do not know whether you have ever met someone with any sort of severe schizophrenia but I assure you that they are hardly sane, and the denial of such is incredibly callous towards those who need treatment for their psychological disorders.

    Freud really isn't that prevailing in the average American mind. Most of his claims, such as the psychosexual stages of development, have been rejected by psychologists as unscientific. Still psychoanalytic therapy can wield excellent results, you should know that this sort of therapy does not commonly use drugs as treatment, so your connection between the two is bewildering. I'm not sure where you are from, but if you do live in the US, then you should take an introductory Psych course. You will find that they spend an equal if not greater amount of time on people such as B.F. Skinner and Carl Rogers as on Freud. His material is treated as it should be, theoretical and largely unprovable.

    Finally, your connection between psychotropic drugs and school shootings is rather hasty. All the paper says is that neighbors believe that the individual had been taking drugs. It does not state if he actually was. Plus, there are many other possible scenarios; maybe he had stopped taking them, perhaps he was taking too much, or it just might be possible that there were many confounding variables involved in his situation, that makes drawing any conclusion based off of our knowledge quite irresponsible.

    So no, I do not believe that psychiatry is any sort of sinister plot, social engineering, sham, or responsible for moral decay.
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    Mig el Pig's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Psychiatry is a subversive fake? The Thud Experiment

    Is there a way to ignore to put Amagi on a ignore list? Everytime I open one of his topics I regret the time I wasted.

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    Default Re: Psychiatry is a subversive fake? The Thud Experiment

    Quote Originally Posted by Mig el Pig View Post
    Is there a way to ignore to put Amagi on a ignore list? Everytime I open one of his topics I regret the time I wasted.
    1) Click on "my account" on the links bar.
    2) Scroll down to the settings and options block under "my control panel".
    3) Click "Edit my ignore list"
    4) Type Amagi in the entry box under "add a member to your list"
    5) Click OK.
    "Every idea is an incitement. It offers itself for belief and if believed it is acted on unless some other belief outweighs it or some failure of energy stifles the movement at its birth. The only difference between the expression of an opinion and an incitement in the narrower sense is the speaker's enthusiasm for the result. Eloquence may set fire to reason." -Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr.

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    Default Re: Psychiatry is a subversive fake? The Thud Experiment

    Quote Originally Posted by xcorps View Post
    1) Click on "my account" on the links bar.
    2) Scroll down to the settings and options block under "my control panel".
    3) Click "Edit my ignore list"
    4) Type Amagi in the entry box under "add a member to your list"
    5) Click OK.
    They should put this in the FAQ
    Oh and I did one week of work placement at the Institute of Psychiatry, and yes, it is not bogus.

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    swabian's Avatar igni ferroque
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    Default Re: Psychiatry is a subversive fake? The Thud Experiment

    Psychiatry is a subversive fake?
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

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    Default Re: Psychiatry is a subversive fake? The Thud Experiment

    It is worth noting that the Thud experiment was carried out by a psychologist and has some credence.

    That is all there is worth noting however.

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    Default Re: Psychiatry is a subversive fake? The Thud Experiment

    Rosenhan's study is textbook material to every Clinical Psychology or Psychiatry course. It demonstrates the worrying trend in institutions to neglect the patient and over-rely on diagnostic tools (like DSM-IV) while repeatedly cautioned-often by the same tools- about the dangers of "automated diagnosis".

    Excellent.

    And then by the method of jumping between topics for the sake of jumping and profiting from the presumed ignorance of the readers, here comes Freud. The reasoning is astonishingly simple.

    Rosenhan=study in psychiatric wards
    Freud=psychiatrist
    ergo=all is connected.

    I'm sorry but by simply putting randomly things on paper (or post) does not force a connection. Many of Freud's theories have never been supported by evidence (psycho sexual stages, components of self);Freud is by no means representative of current trends in Psychiatric research or treatment; in fact, the establishment that Rosenhan criticized is distinctly anti-Freudian. In fact Freud has been attacked by the specific establishment especially for the lack of evidential body in his theories. In fact both Rosenhan and the Hospitals he visited are distinctly anti-Freudian.

    I understand that you somehow want to concoct an argument but you should be careful what you put in the blender of your discourse. Some ingredients are simply incongruent with oneother.

    The last part is especially ridiculous, if not offensive:

    In its front page article, the Times reports: "Several residents said they believed Mr. Weise had received medication for emotional problems. T-Anna Hanson, 21, a cousin of one of his victims, said Mr. Weise had been admitted to a hospital last year for psychiatric help."
    Given the recent disclosure that scientific evidence links SSRI antidepressants to violent and suicidal behavior in adolescents, it is important to investigate what, if any, role the psychotropic drugs that had been prescribed to Jeff Weise may have played in triggering the rampage.
    Let's analyze it for the sake of having fun all together:

    • Several residents said they believed Mr. Weise had received medication for emotional problems: Well if the residents believed so, he had.
    • a cousin of one of his victims, said Mr. Weise had been admitted to a hospital last year for psychiatric help: Definite proof. Psychiatric help=mediction for emotional problems=SSRIs
    • Given the recent disclosure that scientific evidence links SSRI antidepressants to violent and suicidal behavior in adolescents. Oh wait, did anyone said SSRIs? No not really but for the sake of the argument and our hungry readers, now all drugs are SSRIs. Not to mention that both studies (yes, 2) that link one SSRI (yes one out of 60 or so) to violence have tremendous methodological issues having a small sample, no controls and being written by three scientists serving as expert defence witnesses to cases where SSRIs are blamed for violent behaviour!http://psychiatrist-blog.blogspot.co...-violence.html


    So yes, I will concede that if someone who we have no way of knowing if he was under any medication, was taking a medication which we have no way of knowing what it was, and since we have two papers alluding to the possibility that another medication, which may or may not have been the one which the person may or may not have been taken, and since this medication may have been given by a system that had problems in a study that happened 20 years earlier than the events of Columbine, and since Freud's theories which are totally unrelated to all the above have not been demonstrated then YES!!!! Psychiatry=BAD.

    I hope I was clear.
    Last edited by Garbarsardar; July 13, 2010 at 07:13 AM.

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    Default Re: Psychiatry is a subversive fake? The Thud Experiment

    Citing one bad hospital as proof that all of psychiatry is a fraud, is like saying that all police officers are criminals because of one corrupt officer. Do you have a high Thetan count in your body, Amagi?

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    Default Re: Psychiatry is a subversive fake? The Thud Experiment

    While I personally do not like psychiatry, and the dependence on medication that it causes, I think it's pretty damn absurd and paranoid to claim that it's some all-reaching conspiracy and the cause of some perceived "moral decay" in society.
    Further, what the hell does psychiatry have to do with Freudian psychology? Freud was mostly opposed to medicating patients, after some disastrous results from attempting to medicate with cocaine; his therapy style was the progenitor of modern talk-therapy, which is the polar opposite of psychiatric therapies.

    PS) I say "perceived" because I don't see any societal moral decay. If anything, we're more moral now as an increasingly secularised society than we have been before.
    Last edited by MaximiIian; July 13, 2010 at 04:49 PM.

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    Default Re: Psychiatry is a subversive fake? The Thud Experiment

    Quote Originally Posted by MaximiIian View Post
    While I personally do not like psychiatry, and the dependence on medication that it causes, I think it's pretty damn absurd and paranoid to claim that it's some all-reaching conspiracy and the cause of some perceived "moral decay" in society.
    Further, what the hell does psychiatry have to do with Freudian psychology? Freud was mostly opposed to medicating patients, after some disastrous results from attempting to medicate with cocaine; his therapy style was the progenitor of modern talk-therapy, which is the polar opposite of psychiatric therapies.

    PS) I say "perceived" because I don't see any societal moral decay. If anything, we're more moral now as an increasingly secularised society than we have been before.
    I can agree with pretty much all of that. It's important to point out the distinction between psychiatry and psychology. And some of the prescriptions have a valid basis in medical science, psychiatrists are technically medical doctors in fact. psychologists usually are not medical doctors and thus are incapable of handing out prescriptions, let alone any perceived moral decay.

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    Default Re: Psychiatry is a subversive fake? The Thud Experiment

    Quote Originally Posted by MaximiIian View Post
    While I personally do not like psychiatry, and the dependence on medication that it causes, I think it's pretty damn absurd and paranoid to claim that it's some all-reaching conspiracy and the cause of some perceived "moral decay" in society.
    Further, what the hell does psychiatry have to do with Freudian psychology? Freud was mostly opposed to medicating patients, after some disastrous results from attempting to medicate with cocaine; his therapy style was the progenitor of modern talk-therapy, which is the polar opposite of psychiatric therapies.

    PS) I say "perceived" because I don't see any societal moral decay. If anything, we're more moral now as an increasingly secularised society than we have been before.
    While I agree with the rest, generally, the statement I highlighted is somewhat extreme. Saying that psychiatry causes dependence on medication is tantamount to the claim that general practitioners cause dependence on pain-killers and body-building dependence on steroids. Of course, given the wealth and power of pharmacological companies it is certain that certain medication is "imposed" on doctors, but these doctors as as often psychiatrist as family doctors.


    BTW, if you want to read about a real "conspiracy et.c." scandal, you should be reading this. It is the case of a British Academic, Dr David Healy of which the contract was dropped by the Canadian University that just had hired him when he criticized products of the company that was a major donor to said University. Still, even the victim of this scandal did not sought to demonise a specific medication:
    MACINTYRE: Recently David Healy conducted studies aimed at trying to figure out just who is at risk and who isn't. Are you opposed to the use of S.S.R.I.'s?

    HEALY: Absolutely not. No. My Ph.D. thesis was on the seratonin re-uptake system and I've been, I was one of the people when the S.S.R.I.'s came out first who would have been much quicker than most of the rest of my colleagues to use this new group of drugs. I continue to put a very large number of people that I see on the drugs. And I believe as the research that we've done indicates that if you're really going to use the drugs properly and I'm in the business of using these drugs to treat people, is you're really going to find out who does well on these drugs, what you find out at the same time is who does poorly.source
    There is legitimate criticism that can be leveled at modern psychiatric trends and the relation to the pharmacological industrial complex, but this was exactly what the OP was not about...
    Last edited by Garbarsardar; July 13, 2010 at 07:24 PM.

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    MaximiIian's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Psychiatry is a subversive fake? The Thud Experiment

    Quote Originally Posted by Garbarsardar View Post
    While I agree with the rest, generally, the statement I highlighted is somewhat extreme.
    I probably wasn't being very clear. Most of my problem with it is that they try to medicate everything under the sun. This leads to the doctors depending on pharmaceuticals to solve their patients' mental health problems.
    Whereas, talk therapies and conditioning are a lot more healthy, a lot more effective in the long run, and a lot less troublesome for the patients' physical health. Not to say that medication can't help, necessarily; but it shouldn't be the crutch for the entirety of mental health.

    So, I tend to respect psychologists more than psychiatrists.

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    Default Re: Psychiatry is a subversive fake? The Thud Experiment

    Quote Originally Posted by MaximiIian View Post
    I probably wasn't being very clear. Most of my problem with it is that they try to medicate everything under the sun. This leads to the doctors depending on pharmaceuticals to solve their patients' mental health problems.
    Whereas, talk therapies and conditioning are a lot more healthy, a lot more effective in the long run, and a lot less troublesome for the patients' physical health. Not to say that medication can't help, necessarily; but it shouldn't be the crutch for the entirety of mental health.

    So, I tend to respect psychologists more than psychiatrists.
    What we are almost sure about, at this point, regarding MDD (major depressive disorder) and most anxiety disorders is the following:

    Pharmacotherapy yields faster results however those results cannot be sustained without psychotherapy. To put it more simply, if one suffers from MDD or GAD or Social phobia, this person will benefit from a short course of pharamcological treatment followed by a longer course of psychotherapy. The trouble is that all that I just said accounts for ~50% of cases. It is a big number as far mental health treatment efficacy goes but far from satisfactory. It also means that we are probing in the dark for something we assume to exist.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Psychiatry is a subversive fake? The Thud Experiment

    Good lord, with amagi im not surprised what could have been a valid discussion of psychaitry is actually intended to be a frued (who was jewish of course) bashing thread.
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    Default Re: Psychiatry is a subversive fake? The Thud Experiment

    The problem with psychiatry is that its one of the softer medical fields in terms of diagnosis, and in my experience many psychiatrists are nuts themselves. Just as normal MD's with a disease become experts on that disease, I find a lot of people with mental issues go into psychiatry. Its their own awareness of their illness that drew them to the field.

    Also they have done a lot of harm over the years with some crazy theories on human sexual and social development.

    Added Freud was pretty much wrong on everything.

    Those are the weaknesses of the field, but its not a vast conspiracy. Its just a weak science with nutty people.
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  17. #17

    Default Re: Psychiatry is a subversive fake? The Thud Experiment

    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post
    The problem with psychiatry is that its one of the softer medical fields in terms of diagnosis, and in my experience many psychiatrists are nuts themselves. Just as normal MD's with a disease become experts on that disease, I find a lot of people with mental issues go into psychiatry. Its their own awareness of their illness that drew them to the field. .
    actually mentally ill people can not, by law, teach or devote themselves to psychiatry. that is why beeng gay is no logner an illnes, due to the amount of gay shrinks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post
    Its just a weak science with nutty people.
    really a science?

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    Default Re: Psychiatry is a subversive fake? The Thud Experiment

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Crow View Post
    actually mentally ill people can not, by law, teach or devote themselves to psychiatry. that is why beeng gay is no logner an illnes, due to the amount of gay shrinks.
    Well, either prove that the DSM committee that removed homosexuality from Manual had such considerations or accept that you have absolutely no idea about the issue.

    That has been a decision that generated much controversy, however there was a sound scientific reason:

    The argument for removal of homosexuality was bolstered by the lack of objective research supporting its inclusion and research that failed to support the theory that homosexuals fit specific psychiatric stereotypes. http://www2.hu-berlin.de/sexology/GE...Kleinplatz.htm
    For details on how the DSM-IV committees made their decisions, I suggest you get hold of a copy of the actual manual, and read the detailed description on p. xx in the introduction. I think it's fair to say that DSM-IV was more reliant on empirical data, and less on political considerations, than were some earlier DSMs. You may also want to see the article by Bayer & Spitzer in which edited correspondence by the DSM-III framers is presented on the issue of homosexuality (J Hist Behav Sci 18:32, 1982). Bayer indeed believed that there were "political considerations" involved in the decision. However, it is obvious that by "political" he means sociological data (not strictly psychopathological). Even if we take the unreasonable plunge (not even Bayer supports that) and say that the decision was not 100% medically based this is a far cry from idiotic statements of the type "gay shrinks".

    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post
    The problem with psychiatry is that its one of the softer medical fields in terms of diagnosis, and in my experience many psychiatrists are nuts themselves.
    I'm genuinely sorry about your experience but it does not qualify as evidence.

    The subject of Mental Health Professionals suffering from mental health problems is widely discussed, however there is no conclusive evidence. What we know is the following:

    When depression and suicide rates among physicians are analyzed, those of psychiatrists are among the highest. Particular issues needing attention among psychiatrists are those of adjustment and relationship problems, unresolved grief, dysfunctional family legacies, and chronic medical illnesses, according to "The Handbook of Physician Health: The Essential Guide to Understanding the Health Care Needs of the Physician" (Chicago: American Medical Association, 2000).
    So yes, psychiatrists suffer from depression and commit suicide more than any other physician. Also Dentists suffer from lower back problems more than any physician. It is unsound to confuse causes and results.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Psychiatry is a subversive fake? The Thud Experiment

    Quote Originally Posted by Garbarsardar View Post
    Well, either prove that the DSM committee that removed homosexuality from Manual had such considerations or accept that you have absolutely no idea about the issue.
    .
    the chairman at the moment was gay. the experiment was only the last drop in an isue that begun because tose people wanted to be openly gay.

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    Default Re: Psychiatry is a subversive fake? The Thud Experiment

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Crow View Post
    the chairman at the moment was gay. the experiment was only the last drop in an isue that begun because tose people wanted to be openly gay.
    Which chairman? Which experiment? Which drop?


    Look if you don't care to support all this rather incomprehensible staff with some data, I will have to assume that you are simply joking. Not a bad thing, joking, but please do not expect an answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post
    Good thing I wasn't writing a scientific paper
    I was not being sarcastic before, I hope you did not misunderstood my tone as such. While I accept your experience it can hardly be a basis for discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post
    Correlation does not equal causation of course, but after a while you see trends which seem beyond random flux.
    Not trends only, we have data. Still this does not preclude that mental health problems are an occupational hazard for mental health professionals exactly as lower back issues are for dentists.

    I'm pretty sure that had I completed any questionnaire after this, I would be diagnosed with depression.

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