A question on the Caucasus

[Vaynakh]

Before I start, this isn't meant to be a troll and if anyone wishes to take it as such I really couldn't care less.

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What happened to the Muslim/Pagan North Caucasian peoples? I see the Georgians and Azerbaijani's are included in the south and that's great, but in the north the Alans are taking the place of the Adyghe/Cherkess/Circassian, Karachay, and (the largest single ethnic group in the north caucasus) the chechens. Also honorable mention to the Daghestanis?

I haven't heard a great deal about the Alanians (I'm guessing they're supposed to be Ossetian? Correct me if I'm wrong) and if anything them replacing the Waynakh (Chechen + Ingush) Adyghe and Karachay people of the northern Caucasus looks like a significant overlook into the history of the North Caucasus. Is this a conscious omission or just a general lack of knowledge in the subject?

Just wanted to throw that out there. Love the work done on this mod otherwise.

[Tuskin4]

Before I start, this isn't meant to be a troll and if anyone wishes to take it as such I really couldn't care less.

-------

What happened to the Muslim/Pagan North Caucasian peoples? I see the Georgians and Azerbaijani's are included in the south and that's great, but in the north the Alans are taking the place of the Adyghe/Cherkess/Circassian, Karachay, and (the largest single ethnic group in the north caucasus) the chechens. Also honorable mention to the Daghestanis?

I haven't heard a great deal about the Alanians (I'm guessing they're supposed to be Ossetian? Correct me if I'm wrong) and if anything them replacing the Waynakh (Chechen + Ingush) Adyghe and Karachay people of the northern Caucasus looks like a significant overlook into the history of the North Caucasus. Is this a conscious omission or just a general lack of knowledge in the subject?

Just wanted to throw that out there. Love the work done on this mod otherwise.

My guess is a genral lack of knowledge. Since the 90s that regions history has been a touchy subject.

[Vaynakh]

That's a shame. I guess I'll just change faction religion to islam and name to something else once 3.0 comes out then haha.

[Maturin y Domanova]

I don't know much about the North Caucasus in that period but my impression is that BC tries to represent those peoples who had some sort of unified state. You're only ever going to have a few kingdoms at a time to cover over 50 languages.

The Alans were a big deal back then, and they are generally considered the precursors of the modern Ossetians. Was there any unified political entity ruled by 'Circassians' back then? If not, they are independent rebels, like the presumably Abkhaz/Greek/Mingrelians who own Sukhum at the beginning of the game. Bear in mind that the specific ethnic labels we use on the forums are the result of centuries of development and conscious manipulation. There weren't nations back then, so you aren't likely to have a faction just because you have an ethnic group, even if the Caucasus was the entire map.

[Silesian_Noble]

Alans were the most prominent faction on the northern side of caucascus mountains. No doubt. And we placed them pretty much in the spot they were. Check the map below, that refer to the period from before the mongol invasion:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[cankat]

need Adyghe culture for caucasus

[Maturin y Domanova]

Another faction would make that area pretty crowded, but an 'Adyghe Rebels' distinction, together with a unique unit or two would do nicely.

[AlexiosK]

Silesian_Noble, can you tell me where that map comes from?

Also is there a good book(s) on medieval history of the Caucasus someone can suggest?

[Silesian_Noble]

Silesian_Noble, can you tell me where that map comes from?

Ask Alejandro Sanchez - he found it.

Another faction would make that area pretty crowded, but an 'Adyghe Rebels' distinction, together with a unique unit or two would do nicely.

You can always show us some good pictures of Adyghe warriors from our time frame, and if we see it as distinct enough to make a unique regional unit then we can include it in BC3.

[Zaale]

It's absurd to ask for the representation of every single nation/people in the game. I'm from Syria but I never played Ayubbids b/c I don't like them as a faction, don't feel identified with them. Factions changed, Fatimids rised and disappeared, Ayubbids rised and disappeared, Mamlouks rised and disappeared....

I consider Alanians a mix of Ossetians and Cherkess, Chechens were not a prominent nation at the time, Alanian were, the kingdom of Alania, until his final destruction by the mongols.

[Alejandro Sanchez]

Silesian_Noble, can you tell me where that map comes from?

This map from the book "History of Ossetia" by Bliev M.M. and Bzarov R.S.

[Takverely]

How does that map date?

[Maturin y Domanova]

How does that map date?

Probably around the year 1000 as it shows the Kypchaks attacking from the north and a small Georgia.

[Berkut]

I think earlier, it shows Khazaria (blue) and the arrows represent migration of the Turkik tribes not Kypchak attacks (maybe that means attacks? I have no idea, I won't pretend to know anything about this regions history). But Khazaria wasn't really around anymore in 1000 so no later than mid 10th century I'd say.

[Alejandro Sanchez]

Probably around the year 1000 as it shows the Kypchaks attacking from the north and a small Georgia.

VIII-XII cent.

Blue arrow - migration of Turkic tribes before Kypchaks
Green arrow - Kypchaks migration

For example, this map by XIII-XIV cent.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Thanks Alejandro. Is this book written in English?

Dont' know.

Russian? Any idea where I can find it?

In Russian here:
http://www.iratta.com/history

And historical maps:
http://www.iratta.com/atlas

[AlexiosK]

Thanks Alejandro. Is this book written in English? Russian? Any idea where I can find it?

[Takverely]

Those maps are wrong...

First of all if the first map describes VIII cenury caucasus, then there really should be Abkhazian kingdom separated from others. but there shouldnt be kingdom of Georgia. as there was not kingdom of Georgia at all... There were several Georgian kingdoms(Tao-klarjeti, kartli, kakheti, Abkhazeti). and in 978 Georgia became united, including all those small kingdoms(including Abkhazeti)... so for even only this simple reason I dont believe in that map. The author is not competent...

And about second map... I even dont understand WTF is going on there.... Why is Georgia separated into 3 parts? just why? Georgia was united during Temur invansions(1386-1403)... Georgia was united in XIII century too, especially after becoming independent from mongols...(late 30s)

Even the second map describes how Kazbeg was under allanian controll... omg. Is he joking? Kazbeg was the settlement, heart of Georgian highlanders, this settlement has never been under enemies controll. (only Russians had captured it, and whole Georgia...)

so...

[Alejandro Sanchez]

And about second map... I even dont understand WTF is going on there.... Why is Georgia separated into 3 parts? just why?

2 parts. It does not divide States into parts. Two colors indicate the political dynamics. For example, independent Georgia - dependent on the Ilkhanids.
Generally, a static map can not show all the changes, especially for hundreds of years.

[Takverely]

2 parts. It does not divide States into parts. Two colors indicate the political dynamics. For example, independent Georgia - dependent on the Ilkhanids.
Generally, a static map can not show all the changes, especially for hundreds of years.

3 parts! dont you think Abkhazia was in Georgia by that time?... and Svani(svaneti) was/is in Georgia now too... so one part is Abkhazia-Svaneti, second is the rest west Georgia and the third is eastern Georgia...

About the influence... Georgia was under Ilkhanids influence from the begining, than it was under Golden horde influence... there were not 2 influences same time. and there are even 3 colours on Georgia... whos the third?

And what about Georgian highlands? were they captured by Allans? PLZ give me a source when alans captured eastern Georgia's mountainous regions... when did alans invade Georgia and conquer those lands?..

and there is also a mark which indicates that important part of Kartli was under Bagatars(ruler of alans?) controll... WTF?
when did those authors write that book?

[Alejandro Sanchez]

And what about Georgian highlands? were they captured by Allans? PLZ give me a source when alans captured eastern Georgia's mountainous regions... when did alans invade Georgia and conquer those lands?..

"History of Georgia" by Merab Vachnadze, Vahtang Vachnadze, Vahtang Guruli, Mihcael Bahtadze

Citate: "The relatively better position was in Samtskhe. Within the same country reigned anarchy and disorder that was especially true in mountainous areas. Exigencies of the situation and took advantage of the Northern Caucasian Ossetians began raiding Kartli. They even managed to occupy the city Gori".

It was in 1292. Bagatar - Alanian/Ossetian prince.

Citate: "The king put a stop to raids Ossetians and freed the city of Gori on newcomers".

About king Giorgi V, it was in 1326.