Wondering about diplomacy

[Robs]

Yes, hello Mr. Aragorn Sir!

Most pleased to meet you...it has been some time.
I am an emissary from King Bard, the guy that is supposed to lead Dale.
Doesnt ring a bell?
It happened that we just saved your sorry ass after that ruuuude mordor attack,
remember?

Yeah, haha, right. That sent em running!

Exactly!
The guys you have trade rights and military access with for over 70 turns.
Now you got it.

I just wondered, dear ally,....we made some progress into Harad territory,
wanted to tell you about it and while we are at it, wanted to know how
things are going around your neighborhood.
We could exchange maps probably?

Hey hey hey...no reason to be upset. I didnt ask for porn pictures of your
little elven lady. I just wanted to exchange maps...as a military ally.
Still friends?

Seems not....ok ok, no need to unsheat your sword.
I am sorry about my stupidity to ask for that map trading.
Entirely my fault. I'll be going then.

-----

To put it in other words. My skilled diplomat (9/10) is not able to
exchange maps with anyone, if i dont put something tasty into the pot like
a free territory.
Why is that?
And i feel "to make the game more challenging" does not really apply here.
It doesnt make a big difference strategic wise and gives a strange feeling
to the whole allies-thingy.

Opinions?

[Narf]

Your little story gave me a laugh, thanks.

[Jean=A=Luc]

TW games have had diplomacy that's weird and best and ridiculous at worst since forever, there's little you can do about it. If you really want the map just offer a couple hundred "credits" (should be enough) and try not to think about it.

Or are you saying that doesn't work and you literally need to offer a territory (or maybe a huge amount of money)?

But, yeah, nice story.

[Robs]

TW games have had diplomacy that's weird and best and ridiculous at worst since forever, there's little you can do about it.

So true.

And i may add that the Third Age mod is doing great in changing that misbehavior.
I was used to be attacked by my thought allies for no apperent reason.
But in Third Age so far allies stay allies and dont backstab me just for fun.
At least not yet...

I dont know how the diplomacy system works in the background. If its just
rolling dice, or if the factions do have character and traits they follow.

It is just a small thing, but my suggestion for improving the mod would be
that allies in war do exchange maps. Always. A clear win win situation and
therefore most logical to do.

But i havent tried any submods yet. And i will give this RR + RC a look.
Thanks, Narhijan, for mentioning it.

And another thing i wondered:
"Attack that faction" option.
What does it really do? My allies seem to care a lot if i say i would attack
another faction and i dont feel any disadvantage if i dont push the attack
in the next 10 turns, even if i said i would.
And i never feel that a faction that agreed on my terms to attack
my sworn enemy actually does anything to fullfill that promise.
But i imagine for a modder, to make that warmonger dimplomacy work,
is especially difficult.

Maybe the map trading on the other hand would be a lot easier to implement and would help the originally messed up diplomacy system even further.
In my humble opinion that is.

[Knox213]

So true.

And i may add that the Third Age mod is doing great in changing that misbehavior.
I was used to be attacked by my thought allies for no apperent reason.
But in Third Age so far allies stay allies and dont backstab me just for fun.
At least not yet...

I dont know how the diplomacy system works in the background. If its just
rolling dice, or if the factions do have character and traits they follow.

It is just a small thing, but my suggestion for improving the mod would be
that allies in war do exchange maps. Always. A clear win win situation and
therefore most logical to do.

But i havent tried any submods yet. And i will give this RR + RC a look.
Thanks, Narhijan, for mentioning it.

And another thing i wondered:
"Attack that faction" option.
What does it really do? My allies seem to care a lot if i say i would attack
another faction and i dont feel any disadvantage if i dont push the attack
in the next 10 turns, even if i said i would.
And i never feel that a faction that agreed on my terms to attack
my sworn enemy actually does anything to fullfill that promise.
But i imagine for a modder, to make that warmonger dimplomacy work,
is especially difficult.

Maybe the map trading on the other hand would be a lot easier to implement and would help the originally messed up diplomacy system even further.
In my humble opinion that is.

Only faciton which will mess you up is The dwalves... Any other allie is locked ( as far as i know.. )

[smoesville]

Sometimes you have to pay loads of money; 10,000 is the yes at pretty much anything amount but even then they can say no if they hate you. Actually on the point of diplomacy and allied relations how do you keep them from hating you for no real reason?

[Wegen7 die Große]

Hey i have been wondering why this mod doesnt have force diplomacy? If this mod did then when the ai acts stupid then you could just force them to do what you want.

[Narf]

Yeah that would not be cheating at all...

[Narhijan]

I feel fine with RR+RC sub-mod:

It is hard that the good ones go to war to each one, it's more "logical" about diplomacy, IMHO

[Withwnar]

Try gifting them 100 gold first, then try exchanging map info. It might take a few money gifts before they accept.

[cormagus77]

Try gifting them 100 gold first, then try exchanging map info. It might take a few money gifts before they accept.

Yep, "one-piece-at-a-time" that's the key. For several times I made the experience that the enemy diplomats don't accept huge packs of offers although they tend to accept the same items when offered individually, and maybe with a few gifts beforehand...
so first gift a bit of money (or your own map), then exchange trade-rights, then see what they want for their map, and in the end you might even get alliances or military access...
And if you have yourself a larger map to offer than they, you'll get better terms, too!

In most cases it works and with you continually showing your allies that you are a true friend (by gifts, constant diplomatic agreements, and by sharing their friends and enemies, and sharing alliances) you'll do fine - even with the dwarfs!

But I too feel that the allies in TATW, are not acting as true allies by themselves, and I wish they'd more often come up with a gift of their own and indeed help their allies when they are in need, without asking what they'll get for it!

[Withwnar]

The top right of the diplomacy screen (below the image) shows how they are receiving you in these negotiations. It starts off at something like "Receive Neutral". With a small gift or two it changes to "Pleased", at which point they're more likely to agree to your offer.

[Narhijan]

There'is a barely legal trick, if you really want to lead the diplomacy of the world,
or fixing some "errors", no need of any sub-mod.

I used it only if something really against Lore happened (es. 2 good faction in a bad war, or an ally that denied the right to walk in his territories or exchange the maps), but if you use it, maybe the game will become too easy. I use it only vs my reluctant allies, not wth the enemies.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I call this: doing False Promises. just offer some of your territories or something good like that, and ask what they can offer in exchange. If your offer is high, they refuse, but you can gain a good feedback and often they start to really love you. Do it at wish to became a great beloved, trustwhorty, super immaculate diplomatician, with Relations: Perfect to all your allies. Without spend neither 1 gold

Just if you dont' want try any sub mod, but I still suggest RR+RC

forgive my bad English

[Robs]

Thanks for the suggestions. I see that i can trick my allies to do what i want,
but that i cant expect them to behave as if we shared a common fear.

One can say that also in the books the allies did not always behave as such.
Thinking about Denethor, Boromir..., good men but a burden at times.

Lets say there is still room for improvements in the diplomacy section,
but either way the mod offers a brilliant atmosphere and workarounds
if necessary.

[Withwnar]

There'is a barely legal trick, if you really want to lead the diplomacy of the world,...

That's a pretty good plan. And not necessarily cheating, depending on how you look at it. (Like all cheating I suppose.) It would be good if eventually the faction figured what you're doing. Then maybe a big relations dive as your reward for making a mockery of their good nature.

[Narhijan]

That's a pretty good plan. And not necessarily cheating, depending on how you look at it. (Like all cheating I suppose.) It would be good if eventually the faction figured what you're doing. Then maybe a big relations dive as your reward for making a mockery of their good nature.

Yes maybe if I'll play with an evil faction... hmm like the Annatar's mental tricks to the elves of Celebrimbor or the diplomatic/tongue power of Saruman I suppose...

Last example:
I play SE, Fangorn taken from OOTMM, then Rhoan take Fangorn. Well I accepted that, but: Fangorn went to become rebel and enjoyed by itself in to my kingdom.
A good thing i suppose, but I went at war with Rhoan, losing many allies and without any my fault!

So I did use this to make peace (just few turns and an exchange with Limligth Fort) and re-do all my previous alliances and "passage rigth".

Still i prefer use only to fix some strange stuff, if you use this trick you can (barely?) hold or freeze enemies attack... too powerful, AI can't handle that I fear.

*sorry for my bad english

[ppetrus]

Hola!

I have found out that buying a region (by "demand a region" option) is sometimes impossible. First I thought that it happens when I try to buy a settlement where faction's leader is but then I have failed to buy a province of lesser significance. My proposal is always "very demanding". Why is so?

And BTW, do you have any tips to deal with an ally to destroy them without breaking an alliance (and without using an asassin)?

[Arágion]

The story made me laugh

[♘Top Hat Zebra]

Can your allies attack you without breaking the alliance on the diplomacy screen?

Also, on this subject, sausage is good........(off subject: what is the point of making someone your vassel? wouldnt it be easier if you just destroyed your enemy?)

[the cooliest]

I think Vassals give you a percentage of the money they make. I think, but not sure. Anyways, that story made me laugh . It was funny. But I agree, certain things are really easy to do while others are not. The best way to do this is butter them up by gifting them some money. Get outstanding or perfect relations easily, have an ally with alot of money to help you out too, and then ask for something. Because then they're like....Oh, thanks amazing friend who gave me money a little while ago, your idea sounds brilliant, instead of, I don't think we're ready to take our relationship to that level yet .