Help!! Public Order

[Limskj]

I just started plying ExRM a few days ago. I must say, having played Roma Surrectum, EB and XGM; what a great mod this is. However, I must say that the roman citizenship building takes a very long time to build, as is the Auxilia building. Whenever I build the auxilia building, it takes a very long time and I can't build units without it. I always have very bad public order due to this.

Also, I find it impossible to make money. Having to maintain armies costs alot of money and I always make -$8k per turn at least! Is there any way of making money, recruiting troops in newly conquered cities and managing public order without tearing my hair out?

(The populace are a troublesome lot )

[Quinn Inuit]

I'm glad you're enjoying this!

What you've run into is actually intentional on our part. Those high costs are designed to force very slow expansion. If you conquer too quickly, you end up unable to control the provinces you've taken...just like many of history's great conquerors (look at how fast parts of Alexander's empire revolted upon his death, or the quick collapse of Tigranes' after his defeat).

First, bear in mind that unit upkeeps are dreadfully high. You don't want to have more than one or two full stacks at any given time, if that.* If you find yourself needing too many, then you've expanded too quickly, without taking the time to build yourself up or reduce the need for garrisons in occupied cities.

Second, you'll need to have auxilia groups sitting around to act as garrison forces. These need to follow your main army around, more or less. I have a system where I funnel them from city to city, but everyone does things differently. These guys are cheaper per man than your frontline troops to maintain.

Third, manage your economy carefully. Save up money, then recruit a bunch of troops at once for a campaign, then disband what you don't need afterward (just like they did back then). Don't keep guys you don't need sitting around unless they have lots of XP.

btw, on what difficulty level are you playing? I think higher campaign difficulties may mess with public order.


*One of our goals is to reduce the number of full stacks running around the map. I think we've made good progress on that front, and the next version will do even better, I suspect. I don't know about you, but fighting full stack battles every turn against the same stupid opponent annoys me to no end.

[Carados]

Also, make sure you fight against Pyrrhus in the first turn. If you don't, you might find yourself so far in the red that you can't do anything for years on end.

[Caesar Augustus]

Yeah, I really screwed myself over once by waiting for Pyrrhus to attack me. After 7 turns I was so far into the red that my campaign stalled completely.

[JaNuZ99]

Yeah, I really screwed myself over once by waiting for Pyrrhus to attack me. After 7 turns I was so far into the red that my campaign stalled completely.

Why didn't you just wait for him at Corfinium, upon the second turn Pyrrhus always goes for it, and with his elephants you can have a battle immediately.

[Caesar Augustus]

I wanted to see if he'd actually attack the army sat in front of him, but he didn't. Oh well, that's the joys of expirements

[JaNuZ99]

I wanted to see if he'd actually attack the army sat in front of him, but he didn't. Oh well, that's the joys of expirements

lol live and learn, but yeah i tried that once to, he seems to ignore my army and jut go to go to corfinium though
(i send my expensive picene troops from ancona there, so they can die and not burden me so much )

[leemyster]

My advice would be not to waste time and money on building auxillia buildings and if you do limit them to one in each 'region' e.g. alesia in gaul, larissa in greece etc. Instead of recruiting native troops for garrison recruit your own troops which have low upkeep. For rome i typically have 1 or 2 velites units, there cheap, they are numerous so keep those ravage barbarian citizens orderly and through good logistics you can ship them back to rome once there a lot strength.

Another important thing for this mod is to concentrate on the economy. Im playing 3.3.4 were sea trade is more powerful (so i cant acurately comment on the importance in comparison to land trade) but still, getting your ports up to a high level as well as your markets up will help you economically.

A third note is concerning the expensive 'elite' troops you'll have in your army. In the case of rome you want to either disband all but 1 of the triari or send them to be the ones to be chewed up, thus allowing you to keep your bread and butter infantry still strong. Though its often advisable to keep one unit of elite troops because (if stated) they give a morale bonus and occasionally scare the enemy because of their leetness.

[Caesar Augustus]

I'm usually making money after my moves in the first turn, though it generally takes until I've taken Arretium and Ariminium to have a bit more disposable income.

I've now got all of Italy up to the Alps, Sicily, Massilia and Apollonia and I'm making 14/15,000 a turn!

Leemyster - excellent advice for any new player. The importance of having a strong economy can never be over-emphasised.

[HLandin]

Good discussion here. In regards to auxillia buildings, I would have to disagree with you leemyster. The level one and level three auxillia buildings both add public order bonus for the romans at least.

Limskj, keep in mind any newly conquered province (except rebels maybe) is going to have a culture penalty, higher for some than others. This is sometimes a long process to overcome, simulating the gradual assimilation into the new society. The best way to counteract that is to build buildings that generate happiness such as temples, theaters, academies, sewers/baths/aqueducts (through public health), odens, etc. One way to help reduce the culture penalty but may TEMPORARILY raise unrest is to demolish foreign temples and replace them with your own (simulating forcing the new culture upon a resistive population). However, you may want to build some of other public order buildings before doing this since the demolition of the old temples will raise unrest until new ones are built. As a result, you may also want to do this only one temple at a time.

It will probably be necessary to garrison extra troops till this building program is accomplished. Good candidates are skirmishers such as velites and italian skirmishers, italian spearmen, or italian swordmen (only slightly more expensive than italian spearmen). All of these will have significantly lower upkeep cost than your roman troops (hastati, principes, or triarii), other auxillia troops (samnite light/heavy infantry), or troops recruited in the field (save these troops to do your fighting due to their higher stats and usually they also have a morale bonus, especially the core roman troops).

About raising cash. Your troops can generate money by pillaging the lands of your enemies (especially if you general has the pillager trait, he gets an added bonus). This money may not seem directly apparent, but if you read your income and expenditure survey carefully at the beginning of your turn, you will see an item for this income. You should also see the effects of this by the black area around your army as it remains there for several turns, simulating this devastation on the campaign map. While this is not as profitable as capturing more cities, it can be helpful if you control the land but do not have the forces to commit to attempting to capture cities and garrisoning.

[Caesar Augustus]

About raising cash. Your troops can generate money by pillaging the lands of your enemies (especially if you general has the pillager trait, he gets an added bonus). This money may not seem directly apparent, but if you read your income and expenditure survey carefully at the beginning of your turn, you will see an item for this income. You should also see the effects of this by the black area around your army as it remains there for several turns, simulating this devastation on the campaign map. While this is not as profitable as capturing more cities, it can be helpful if you control the land but do not have the forces to commit to attempting to capture cities and garrisoning.

Really? I had no idea about that. I know it reduces in come for the victim, but not that it raises money for the perpetrator.

[Quinn Inuit]

Same here. Thanks for the info!

[Limskj]

Thanks guys! I am actually playing on M/M. I cry on hard and very hard difficulty battles. I rely alot on the auto-resolve.

I only have 1 full stack and I am still losing $8K per turn. I don't use very high tax rates because I don't want my governors to receive the 'harsh ruler' trait.

When do the roman legion ancillaries appear? And how do the armies thing work? I have read the guide provided but I still don't understand. Especially the part on getting promoted to legate, general and consul.

About the public order: I think I've been spoilt by Roma Surrectum. In that mod, 200% public order is common

[Caesar Augustus]

Thanks guys! I am actually playing on M/M. I cry on hard and very hard difficulty battles. I rely alot on the auto-resolve.

The games balanced on M/M, I would recommend anyone to play the mod at that difficulty, at least until they have some experience. Even then I wouldn't go for a battle difficulty other than Medium as I dislike the attack and morale bonuses granted to the AI.

I only have 1 full stack and I am still losing $8K per turn. I don't use very high tax rates because I don't want my governors to receive the 'harsh ruler' trait.

How many provinces do you hold? What economic buildings have you built? They are far more important in the early campaign than developing your military infrastructure. Your governors will become better with very high taxes, I wouldn't worry about the harsh ruler trait.

Do you actually need a full stack army? Have you thought about fighting battles yourself to reduce casualties? So far I've not needed more than just over a half stack with fighting battles myself.

When do the roman legion ancillaries appear? And how do the armies thing work? I have read the guide provided but I still don't understand. Especially the part on getting promoted to legate, general and consul.

I don't know about the legion ancillaries if I'm honest. I think it's tied to the number of years of military service.

What do you mean by the armies thing? Are you talking about the Roman career system?

I'll use Lucius Tiddlypuss Magnus as an example character of how the career system works, as I roleplay it.

Young Lucius comes of age at 16. Between 16 and 20 he should be in either your capital, or city with the best educational facilities (Academy/Scriptorium/Ludus Magna). Here he will pick up many of his most important traits and ancillaries. If you put him into an army at this stage there is an increased chance of him picking up negative military traits, so you're better off sending him to school.

For Lucius to begin his military career, he needs to be sent off to join an army in the field. He now becomes a Military Tribune, and the military service counter starts. At this point in time he'll be performing various administrative tasks to aid the general in his duties, doling out the troops pay, and cleaning the general's latrine. For Lucius to develop his military career further, he'll need to be with a Roman army in the field for ten years. He can only spend one season inside a town or he'll get the Former Tribune trait. There isn't anything wrong with that, I just don't like my characters to get that until they've performed their full ten years.

Once Lucius has completed ten years as a Military Tribune, it's time to send him into a settlement for a turn or two. Generally for me I give them a year's leave to study under a governor.

Next time Lucius Tiddlypuss Magnus joins an army, it'll be as a Legate. At this point I let the character have an independent command, if there's one going (currently, all my generals are at this point in their career). I can't remember how long this stage lasts, I think it's at least five years. In any case, just like Lucius' term as a Military Tribune, he needs to remain with the army for the full time period in the field before he can advance his career further.

After his period as a Legate, Lucius' career is really under way. If he's been successful, women in Rome will be buying small busts of him in the forum, and men will wish that they could serve under his command, when the time comes. If not, then he will be shunned in the streets, and the plebs will "accidentally" empty their latrine pots out of the window on him as he walks past. Truly reminiscent of his time cleaning the general's latrine as a Military Tribune. But I digress.

The next stage in his career will be as a General (Praetor). At this stage Lucius will be overseeing entire campaigns to subjugate whole areas to Rome. He will be with the main army, whilst Legates command smaller forces in support, or to perform minor actions in support of the main force. Again, I don't remember how long this stage lasts for.

Now, once Lucius Tiddlypuss Magnus has completed his time as a Praetor, he will be eligible for election to Consul. Truly, he's made it now. To make this transition, as with the rest of the rungs of the career ladder, he will need to spend a few turns in a settlement until he gains the "Former (insert office name here)" trait. Then he'll need to join an army in field again to get the office as Consul.

A couple of important notes:

• Be sure to remove the legion ancillaries from a Praetor before he becomes Consul. The game will not give him the ancillary that generates the Consul trait if he still has Roman Legion 1, for example. He'll need to be awarded the Roman Consular Army 1/2 ancillary by the game to become Consul. Make sure that the character who does hold the consular army ancillary is dead, so that the ancillary is then freed up by the game to be passed on to someone else.
• Whenever the character reaches the end of his term at each level of the career system, be sure to keep him in a settlement until he gains the Former Tribune/Former Legate/Former General trait.
• 25 years military service is required to get from Tribune to Consul, you will need to judge carefully which characters will have a full career so that you can have governors too. For me, I usually cut off characters at 10 years if they would be more suited to governorship.
• After 25 years military service your character is also eligible for the Governor of Latium office. Make sure you have an ancillary slot free for the ancillary that grants this office.

About the public order: I think I've been spoilt by Roma Surrectum. In that mod, 200% public order is common

Yeah, you won't get that here

Well, not unless you have a uber governor anyways. Make sure you construct some basic public order buildings, then economic, then more public order, and then military. Unless you have a dire need to recruit troops in a particular province, in which case it'll need a larger garrison to ensure good pulic order.

Hope this all helps

Rep if you like

EDIT: Hmm, why didn't that third quote work?

[JaNuZ99]

The games balanced on M/M, I would recommend anyone to play the mod at that difficulty, at least until they have some experience. Even then I wouldn't go for a battle difficulty other than Medium as I dislike the attack and morale bonuses granted to the AI.



How many provinces do you hold? What economic buildings have you built? They are far more important in the early campaign than developing your military infrastructure. Your governors will become better with very high taxes, I wouldn't worry about the harsh ruler trait.

Do you actually need a full stack army? Have you thought about fighting battles yourself to reduce casualties? So far I've not needed more than just over a half stack with fighting battles myself.



I don't know about the legion ancillaries if I'm honest. I think it's tied to the number of years of military service.

What do you mean by the armies thing? Are you talking about the Roman career system?

I'll use Lucius Tiddlypuss Magnus as an example character of how the career system works, as I roleplay it.

Young Lucius comes of age at 16. Between 16 and 20 he should be in either your capital, or city with the best educational facilities (Academy/Scriptorium/Ludus Magna). Here he will pick up many of his most important traits and ancillaries. If you put him into an army at this stage there is an increased chance of him picking up negative military traits, so you're better off sending him to school.

For Lucius to begin his military career, he needs to be sent off to join an army in the field. He now becomes a Military Tribune, and the military service counter starts. At this point in time he'll be performing various administrative tasks to aid the general in his duties, doling out the troops pay, and cleaning the general's latrine. For Lucius to develop his military career further, he'll need to be with a Roman army in the field for ten years. He can only spend one season inside a town or he'll get the Former Tribune trait. There isn't anything wrong with that, I just don't like my characters to get that until they've performed their full ten years.

Once Lucius has completed ten years as a Military Tribune, it's time to send him into a settlement for a turn or two. Generally for me I give them a year's leave to study under a governor.

Next time Lucius Tiddlypuss Magnus joins an army, it'll be as a Legate. At this point I let the character have an independent command, if there's one going (currently, all my generals are at this point in their career). I can't remember how long this stage lasts, I think it's at least five years. In any case, just like Lucius' term as a Military Tribune, he needs to remain with the army for the full time period in the field before he can advance his career further.

After his period as a Legate, Lucius' career is really under way. If he's been successful, women in Rome will be buying small busts of him in the forum, and men will wish that they could serve under his command, when the time comes. If not, then he will be shunned in the streets, and the plebs will "accidentally" empty their latrine pots out of the window on him as he walks past. Truly reminiscent of his time cleaning the generals latrine as a Military Tribune. But I digress.

The next stage in his career will be as a General (Praetor). At this stage Lucius will be overseeing entire campaigns to subjugate whole areas to Rome. He will be with the main army, whilst Legates command smaller forces in support, or to perform minor actions in support of the main force. Again, I don't remember how long this stage lasts for.

Now, once Lucius Tiddlypuss Magnus has completed his time as a Praetor, he will be eligible for election to Consul. Truly, he's made it now. To make this transition, as with the rest of the rungs of the career ladder, he will need to spend a few turns in a settlement until he gains the "Former (insert office name here)" trait. Then he'll need to join an army in field again to get the office as Consul.

A couple of important notes:

• Be sure to remove the legion ancillaries from a Praetor before he becomes Consul. The game will not give him the ancillary that generates the Consul trait if he still has Roman Legion 1, for example. He'll need to be awarded the Roman Consular Army 1/2 ancillary by the game to become Consul. Make sure that the character who does hold the consular army ancillary is dead, so that the ancillary is then freed up by the game to be passed on to someone else.
• Whenever the character reaches the end of his term at each level of the career system, be sure to keep him in a settlement until he gains the Former Tribune/Former Legate/Former General trait.
• 25 years military service is required to get from Tribune to Consul, you will need to judge carefully which characters will have a full career so that you can have governors too. For me, I usually cut off characters at 10 years if they would be more suited to governorship.
• After 25 years military service your character is also eligible for the Governor of Latium office. Make sure you have an ancillary slot free for the ancillary that grants this office.

Yeah, you won't get that here

Well, not unless you have a uber governor anyways. Make sure you construct some basic public order buildings, then economic, then more public order, and then military. Unless you have a dire need to recruit troops in a particular province, in which case it'll need a larger garrison to ensure good pulic order.

Hope this all helps

Rep if you like

woah that some pretty cool RP!

+rep

EDIT: LOL "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Caesar Augustus again."

i guess i'll have to spread some rep around LOL

[Carados]

[ QUOTE=Limskj;7653235]When do the roman legion ancillaries appear? And how do the armies thing work? I have read the guide provided but I still don't understand. Especially the part on getting promoted to legate, general and consul.[\QUOTE]

EDIT: Hmm, why didn't that third quote work?

You've got a backward slash in the closing bracket.


HLandin: that is definitely something interesting to know. I'll be definitely having a look at that myself to see how it all works. Thanks.

Thanks guys! I am actually playing on M/M. I cry on hard and very hard difficulty battles. I rely alot on the auto-resolve.

I only have 1 full stack and I am still losing $8K per turn. I don't use very high tax rates because I don't want my governors to receive the 'harsh ruler' trait.

Can you give me more information about your campaign
For example, what year are you in?
Did you fight Pyrrhus in the beginning?
How much damage did he do to your army?
Did you manage to take Arretium and Arrimnium quite early?
What type of buildings are you constructing?
What does your typical stack look like (CA has a solid point, in the early game you don't need full stacks for anything (outside of Pyrrhus) - half stacks should be sufficient to take down the local garrisons)?

[Caesar Augustus]

I'm regularly destroying full stacks of Gauls with very few casualties, and annihilating Greek full stacks with one of my half stacks. Admittedly, versus the Greeks my light infantry are taking high losses as they're sending almost nothing but skirmishers at me.

Cheers Carados, I've changed my post so it works

[Quinn Inuit]

I've got your back, JaN. I'll link that, too.

Oh, yeah, and try not to autoresolve. Human generals can usually do better than they would get in autoresolve.

[Apex]

Public Order - the most "size to cost" effective units are gaul warband and gaul slingers - mercenaries. If playing for Rome recruite as many as possible and continously replace garrisons with them. I use ONLY them as garrison all over my empire. Never use expensive heavy infantry as garrison. Use them to fight.
Check carefully your familly members and divide them to generals and governors based on their traits and ancillaries-those can be exchanged between family members. I have governors in 90% of my cities.
Forget military buildings early on game or in newly conquered provinces. Focus only on keeping public order under control by building temples which acctually brings you MONEY via higher taxes you can afforod. Tax remain your TOP source of income for very long time. I always do everything to get province on Very high Taxes and slowing down growth, before focusing on other buildings-Trade.

For the army upkeep - early on game avoid keeping expensive elite units (triari, agema, hypaspistai...). Use only small portion of heavy infantry that will hold the line in the battle and lot of cheap light infantry for outflanking (battle tactics for different thread) that won't criple your budged.