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    Default Paris Riots highlight concerns toward Europe's more dissident Muslim population

    Europe's Angry Muslims
    By Robert S. Leiken

    From Foreign Affairs, July/August 2005



    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Summary: Radical Islam is spreading across Europe among descendants of Muslim immigrants. Disenfranchised and disillusioned by the failure of integration, some European Muslims have taken up jihad against the West.

    AN AMERICAN CONCERN

    Fox News and CNN's Lou Dobbs worry about terrorists stealing across the United States' border with Mexico concealed among illegal immigrants. The Pentagon wages war in the Middle East to stop terrorist attacks on the United States. But the growing nightmare of officials at the Department of Homeland Security is passport-carrying, visa-exempt mujahideen coming from the United States' western European allies.

    Jihadist networks span Europe from Poland to Portugal, thanks to the spread of radical Islam among the descendants of guest workers once recruited to shore up Europe's postwar economic miracle. In smoky coffeehouses in Rotterdam and Copenhagen, makeshift prayer halls in Hamburg and Brussels, Islamic bookstalls in Birmingham and "Londonistan," and the prisons of Madrid, Milan, and Marseilles, immigrants or their descendants are volunteering for jihad against the West. It was a Dutch Muslim of Moroccan descent, born and socialized in Europe, who murdered the filmmaker Theo van Gogh in Amsterdam last November. A Nixon centre study of 373 mujahideen in western Europe and North America between 1993 and 2004 found more than twice as many Frenchmen as Saudis and more Britons than Sudanese, Yemenites, Emiratis, Lebanese, or Libyans. Fully a quarter of the jihadists it listed were western European nationals -- eligible to travel visa-free to the United States.

    The emergence of homegrown mujahideen in Europe threatens the United States as well as Europe. Yet it was the dog that never barked at last winter's Euro-American rapprochement meeting. Neither President George W. Bush nor Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice drew attention to this mutual peril, even though it should focus minds and could buttress solidarity in the West.

    YOUR LAND IS MY LAND

    The mass immigration of Muslims to Europe was an unintended consequence of post-World War II guest-worker programs. Backed by friendly politicians and sympathetic judges, foreign workers, who were supposed to stay temporarily, benefited from family reunification programs and became permanent. Successive waves of immigrants formed a sea of descendants. Today, Muslims constitute the majority of immigrants in most western European countries, including Belgium, France, Germany, and the Netherlands, and the largest single component of the immigrant population in the United Kingdom. Exact numbers are hard to come by because Western censuses rarely ask respondents about their faith. But it is estimated that between 15 and 20 million Muslims now call Europe home and make up four to five percent of its total population. (Muslims in the United States probably do not exceed 3 million, accounting for less than two percent of the total population.) France has the largest proportion of Muslims (seven to ten percent of its total population), followed by the Netherlands, Germany, Denmark, Sweden, the United Kingdom, and Italy. Given continued immigration and high Muslim fertility rates, the National Intelligence Council projects that Europe's Muslim population will double by 2025.

    Unlike their U.S. counterparts, who entered a gigantic country built on immigration, most Muslim newcomers to western Europe started arriving only after World War II, crowding into small, culturally homogenous nations. Their influx was a new phenomenon for many host states and often unwelcome. Meanwhile, North African immigrants retained powerful attachments to their native cultures. So unlike American Muslims, who are geographically diffuse, ethnically fragmented, and generally well off, Europe's Muslims gather in bleak enclaves with their compatriots: Algerians in France, Moroccans in Spain, Turks in Germany, and Pakistanis in the United Kingdom.

    The footprint of Muslim immigrants in Europe is already more visible than that of the Hispanic population in the United States. Unlike the jumble of nationalities that make up the American Latino community, the Muslims of western Europe are likely to be distinct, cohesive, and bitter. In Europe, host countries that never learned to integrate newcomers collide with immigrants exceptionally retentive of their ways, producing a variant of what the French scholar Olivier Roy calls "globalized Islam": militant Islamic resentment at Western dominance, anti-imperialism exalted by revivalism.

    As the French academic Gilles Kepel acknowledges, "neither the blood spilled by Muslims from North Africa fighting in French uniforms during both world wars nor the sweat of migrant laborers, living under deplorable living conditions, who rebuilt France (and Europe) for a pittance after 1945, has made their children ... full fellow citizens." Small wonder, then, that a radical leader of the Union of Islamic Organizations of France, a group associated with the Muslim Brotherhood, curses his new homeland: "Oh sweet France! Are you astonished that so many of your children commune in a stinging naal bou la France [**** France], and damn your Fathers?"

    As a consequence of demography, history, ideology, and policy, western Europe now plays host to often disconsolate Muslim offspring, who are its citizens in name but not culturally or socially. In a fit of absentmindedness, during which its academics discoursed on the obsolescence of the nation-state, western Europe acquired not a colonial empire but something of an internal colony, whose numbers are roughly equivalent to the population of Syria. Many of its members are willing to integrate and try to climb Europe's steep social ladder. But many younger Muslims reject the minority status to which their parents acquiesced. A volatile mix of European nativism and immigrant dissidence challenges what the Danish sociologist Ole Waever calls "societal security," or national cohesion. To make matters worse, the very isolation of these diaspora communities obscures their inner workings, allowing mujahideen to fundraise, prepare, and recruit for jihad with a freedom available in few Muslim countries.

    As these conditions developed in the late 1990s, even liberal segments of the European public began to have second thoughts about immigration. Many were galled by their governments' failure to reduce or even identify the sources of insיcuritי (a French code word for the combination of vandalism, delinquency, and hate crimes stemming from Muslim immigrant enclaves). The state appeared unable to regulate the entry of immigrants, and society seemed unwilling to integrate them. In some cases, the backlash was xenophobic and racist; in others, it was a reaction against policymakers captivated by a multiculturalist dream of diverse communities living in harmony, offering oppressed nationalities marked compassion and remedial benefits. By 2002, electoral rebellion over the issue of immigration was threatening the party systems of Austria, Belgium, Denmark, France, and the Netherlands. The Dutch were so incensed by the 2002 assassination of Pim Fortuyn, a gay anti-immigration politician, that mainstream parties adopted much of the victim's program. In the United Kingdom this spring, the Tories not only joined the ruling Labour Party in embracing sweeping immigration restrictions, such as tightened procedures for asylum and family reunification (both regularly abused throughout Europe) and a computerized exit-entry system like the new U.S. Visitor and Immigration Status Indicator Technology program; they also campaigned for numerical caps on immigrants. With the Muslim headscarf controversy raging in France, talk about the connection between asylum abuse and terrorism rising in the United Kingdom, an immigration dispute threatening to tear Belgium apart, and the Dutch outrage over the van Gogh killing, western Europe may now be reaching a tipping point.

    LAX POPULI

    Although for some Europeans the Madrid bombings were a watershed event comparable to the September 11 attacks in the United States, these Europeans form a minority, especially among politicians. Yet what Americans perceive as European complacency is easy to fathom. The September 11 attacks did not happen in Europe, and for a long time the continent's experience with terrorism mainly took the form of car bombs and booby-trapped trash cans. Terrorism is still seen as a crime problem, not an occasion for war. Moreover, some European officials believe that acquiescent policies toward the Middle East can offer protection. In fact, while bin Laden has selectively attacked the United States' allies in the Iraq war, he has offered a truce to those European states that have stayed out of the conflict.

    With a few exceptions, European authorities shrink from the relatively stout legislative and security measures adopted in the United States. They prefer criminal surveillance and traditional prosecutions to launching a U.S.-style "war on terrorism" and mobilizing the military, establishing detention centers, enhancing border security, requiring machine-readable passports, expelling hate preachers, and lengthening notoriously light sentences for convicted terrorists. Germany's failure to convict conspirators in the September 11 attacks suggests that the European public, outside of France and now perhaps the Netherlands, is not ready for a war on terrorism.

    Contrary to what many Americans concluded during Washington's dispute with Paris in the lead-up to the invasion of Iraq, France is the exception to general European complacency. Well before September 11, France had deployed the most robust counterterrorism regime of any Western country. Irish terrorism may have diverted British attention from jihad, as has Basque terrorism in Spain, but Algerian terrorism worked the opposite effect in France.

    To prevent proselytizing among its mostly North African Muslim community, during the 1990s the energetic French state denied asylum to radical Islamists even while they were being welcomed by its neighbors. Fearing, as Kepel puts it, that contagion would turn "the social malaise felt by Muslims in the suburbs of major cities" into extremism and terrorism, the French government cracked down on jihadists, detaining suspects for as long as four days without charging them or allowing them access to a lawyer. Today no place of worship is off limits to the police in secular France. Hate speech is rewarded with a visit from the police, blacklisting, and the prospect of deportation. These practices are consistent with the strict Gallic assimilationist model that bars religion from the public sphere (hence the headscarf dispute).

    Contrast the French approach to the United Kingdom's separatist form of multiculturalism, which offered radical Arab Islamists refuge and the opportunity to preach openly, while stepping up surveillance of them. French youth could still tune into jihadist messages on satellite television and the Internet, but in the United Kingdom open radical preaching spawned terrorist cells. Most of the rest of Europe adopted the relaxed British approach, but with less surveillance.

    Now, the Madrid bombings and the van Gogh killing have strengthened the hand of engaged politicians, such as Germany's Social Democratic interior minister, Otto Schily, and the former French interior minister, Nicolas Sarkozy, who leads the governing Union for a Popular Movement. They have also prompted Brussels, London, Madrid, Paris, and The Hague to increase resources and personnel devoted to terrorism.

    In general, European politicians with security responsibilities, not to mention intelligence and security officials who get daily intelligence reports, take the harder U.S. line. Schily has called for Europe-wide "computer-aided profiling" to identify mujahideen. The emergence of holy warriors in Europe and the meiosis of radical groups once connected to al Qaeda have prompted several European capitals to increase cooperation on counterterrorism as well as their counterterrorism resources and personnel.

    Yet a jihadist can cross Europe with little scrutiny. Even if noticed, he can change his name or glide across a border, relying on long-standing bureaucratic and legal stovepipes. After the Madrid bombings, a midlevel European official was appointed to coordinate European counterterrorist statutes and harmonize EU security arrangements. But he often serves simply as a broker amid the gallimaufry of the 25 member states' legal codes.

    Since the Madrid bombings, the Spanish Interior Ministry has tripled to 450 the number of full-time antiterrorism operatives, and the Spanish national police are assigning a similar number of additional agents to mujahideen intelligence. Spanish law enforcement established a task force combining police and intelligence specialists to keep tabs on Muslim neighborhoods and prison mosques. Similarly, special police cells are being organized in each of France's 22 regions, stepping up the surveillance of mosques, Islamic bookshops, long-distance phone facilities, and halal butchers and restaurants.

    The 25 EU members have also put into effect a European arrest warrant allowing police to avoid lengthy extradition procedures. Despite widespread concerns about possible privacy abuses, several EU countries have lowered barriers between intelligence and police agencies since the van Gogh murder. Germany aims to place its 16 police forces under one umbrella. In France, Germany, Spain, the Netherlands, and the United Kingdom, intelligence and police officers meet with officials in state-of-the-art communications centers, or "war rooms," to share information about interrogations, informant reports, live wiretaps, and video or satellite pictures.

    Still, counterterrorism agencies remain reluctant to share sensitive information or cooperate on prosecutions. Measures proposed in the wake of the Madrid attacks, such as a Europe-wide fingerprint and DNA database and biometric passports, remain only that -- proposals. Fragmentation and rivalry among Europe's security systems and other institutions continue to hamper counterterrorism efforts. For nearly a decade, France has sought the extradition of the organizer of several bombings in the Paris metro in the 1990s, but his case languishes in the British courts to the anguish of the Home Office as well as Paris.

    The new mujahideen are not only testing traditional counterterrorist practices; their emergence is also challenging the mentality prevailing in western Europe since the end of World War II. Revulsion against Nazism and colonialism translated into compassion toward religious minorities, of whatever stripe. At first, Muslim guest workers were welcomed in Europe by a liberal orthodoxy that generally regarded them as victims lacking rights. In some countries, such as the Netherlands and the United Kingdom, that perspective spawned a comprehensive form of multiculturalism. London's version verged on separatism. While stepping up surveillance, the British authorities allowed Islamists refuge and an opportunity to preach openly and disseminate rabid propaganda. Multiculturalism had a dual appeal: it allowed these states to seem tolerant by showering minorities with rights while segregating them from, rather than absorbing them into, the rest of society. Multiculturalism dovetailed with a diminished Western ethos that suited libertarians as well as liberals.

    But now many Europeans have come to see that permissiveness as excessive, even dangerous. A version of religious tolerance allowed the Hamburg cell to flourish and rendered German universities hospitable to radical Islam. Now Europeans are asking Muslims to practice religious tolerance themselves and adjust to the values of their host countries. Tony Blair's government requires that would-be citizens master "Britishness." Likewise, "Dutch values" are central to The Hague's new approach, and similar proposals are being put forward in Berlin, Brussels, and Copenhagen. Patrick Weil, the immigration guru of the French Socialist Party, sees a continental trend in which immigrant "responsibilities" balance immigrant "rights."

    The Dutch reaction to van Gogh's assassination, the British reaction to jihadist abuse of political asylum, and the French reaction to the wearing of the headscarf suggest that Europe's multiculturalism has begun to collide with its liberalism, privacy rights with national security. Multiculturalism was once a hallmark of Europe's cultural liberalism, which the British columnist John O'Sullivan defined as "free[dom] from irksome traditional moral customs and cultural restraints." But when multiculturalism is perceived to coddle terrorism, liberalism parts company. The gap between the two is opening in France, the Netherlands, the United Kingdom, and to some extent even in Germany, where liberalism stretched a form of religious tolerance so much so that it allowed the Hamburg cell to turn prayer rooms into war rooms with cocky immunity from the German police.

    Yet it is far from clear whether top-down policies will work without bottom-up adjustments in social attitudes. Can Muslims become Europeans without Europe opening its social and political circles to them? So far, it appears that absolute assimilationism has failed in France, but so has segregation in Germany and multiculturalism in the Netherlands and the United Kingdom. Could there be another way? The French ban the headscarf in public schools; the Germans ban it among public employees. The British celebrate it. The Americans tolerate it. Given the United States' comparatively happier record of integrating immigrants, one may wonder whether the mixed U.S. approach -- separating religion from politics without placing a wall between them, helping immigrants slowly adapt but allowing them relative cultural autonomy -- could inspire Europeans to chart a new course between an increasingly hazardous multiculturalism and a naked secularism that estranges Muslims and other believers. One thing is certain: if only for the sake of counterterrorism, Europe needs to develop an integration policy that works. But that will not happen overnight.

    Indeed, the fissure between liberalism and multiculturalism is opening just as the continent undergoes its most momentous population shift since Asian tribes pushed westward in the first Christian millennium. Immigration obviously hits a national security nerve, but it also raises economic and demographic questions: how to cope with a demonstrably aging population; how to maintain social cohesion as Christianity declines and both secularism and Islam climb; whether the EU should exercise sovereignty over borders and citizenship; and what the accession of Turkey, with its 70 million Muslims, would mean for the EU. Moreover, European mujahideen do not threaten only the Old World; they also pose an immediate danger to the United States.

    A FINER SIEVE

    The United States' relative success in assimilating its own Muslim immigrants means that its border security must be more vigilant. To strike at the United States, al Qaeda counts less on domestic sleeper cells than on foreign infiltration. As a 9/11 Commission staff report put it, al Qaeda faces "a travel problem": How can it move its mujahideen from hatchery to target? Europe's mujahideen may represent a solution.

    The New York Times has reported that bin Laden has outsourced planning for the next spectacular attack on the United States to an "external planning node." Chances are it is based in Europe and will deploy European citizens. European countries generally accord citizenship to immigrants born on their soil, and so potential European jihadists are entitled to European passports, allowing them visa-free travel to the United States and entry without an interview. The members of the Hamburg cell that captained the September 11 attacks came by air from Europe and were treated by the State Department as travelers on the Visa Waiver Program (VWP), just like Moussaoui and Richard Reid, the shoe bomber.

    Does that mean the VWP should be scrapped altogether, as some members of Congress are asking? By no means. The State Department is already straining to enforce stricter post-September 11 visa-screening measures, which involve longer interviews, more staff, and more delays. Terminating the VWP would exact steep bureaucratic and diplomatic costs, and rile the United States' remaining European friends. Instead, the United States should update the criteria used in the periodic reviews of VWP countries, taking into account terrorist recruiting and evaluating passport procedures. These reviews could utilize task forces set up in collaboration with the Europeans. Together, U.S. and European authorities should insist that the airlines require U.S.-bound transatlantic travelers to submit passport information when purchasing tickets. Such a measure would give the new U.S. National Targeting centre time to check potential entrants without delaying flight departures. And officers should be stationed at check-in counters to weed out suspects.

    Europe's emerging mujahideen endanger the entire Western world. Collaboration in taming Muslim rancor or at least in keeping European jihadists off U.S.-bound airplanes could help reconcile estranged allies. A shared threat and a mutual interest should engage media, policymakers, and the public on both sides of the Atlantic. To concentrate their minds on common dangers and solutions might come as a bittersweet relief to Europeans and Americans after their recent disagreements.

    Op-Ed Contributor
    Thought i'd throw in some of the broader World Reaction to the Riots as they've intensified.

    Germany - "We also have youth violence problems in Germany, but we haven't experienced cases of the dimensions of the blind violence that's taking place in France at the moment," said Norbert Seitz, director of the German Forum for Crime Prevention, a private information center. Wolfgang Schäuble, a conservative member of Parliament slated to be Germany's interior minister, concurred. "The conditions in France are different from the ones we have," he said. "We don't have these gigantic high-rise projects that they have on the edges of French cities." Mr. Schäuble added, however, that Germany needed to "improve integration, especially of young people," if violence is to be avoided.[130]

    Iran - The Iranian minister of foreign affairs has demanded that France treat its minorities with respect and protect their human rights. [131]
    Italy - Opposition leader Romano Prodi called on the Italian government to take urgent action, telling reporters: "We have the worst suburbs in Europe. I don't think things are so different from Paris. It's only a matter of time." [132]

    Libya - The leader of Libya, Muammar al-Qaddafi spoke with French President Jacques Chirac by telephone and offered to help with the situation.[133]

    Russia - Deputy Speaker of the Russian Duma and leader of the Liberal Democratic Party of Russia Vladimir Zhirinovsky claims the riots were sparked by the American CIA to "weaken Europe".[134]

    Senegal - The Senegalese president, Abdoulaye Wade, at the time on a visit to Paris, reacted to the events by declaring that France must "dissolve the ghettos, and integrate all Africans asking to be integrated." [135]

    Turkey - The Turkish prime minister named the French prohibition of headscarves in schools to be one of the reasons for the upsurge of violence in the banlieues. He stated this in an interview with the Turkish newspaper Milliyet. [136] Turkey has similar laws. When the French Prime Minister de Villepin was queried about Erdoğan's statement, he replied "C'est sant rapport", meaning "It is not related." [137]

    United States - State Department spokesman Sean McCormack, asked to comment directly on the riots, said it was a French internal issue, and added, "certainly, as anybody would, we mourn the loss of life in these kinds of situations. But, again, these are issues for the French people and the French government to address." [138].

    Travel warnings for France have been issued, for citizens of their respective countries, by the governments of:
    People's Republic of China
    as of 3 November: * Russia,
    as of 7 November: United States, Australia, United Kingdom, Japan, Canada, Netherlands, Belgium, Hong Kong, Finland, Germany, Austria, Hungary, Denmark, Slovakia, Czech Republic
    Thoughts?

  2. #2
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    Hi,

    I am not surprised at anything in this article.

    It has been obvious to anyone (with a brain) that there is going to be a civil war across Europe which will no doubt also involve other islamic countries who will use the excuse to aid their poor oppressed "brothers".

    The only question I have is, are we ready for a war. Many European countries have no backbone at all. They have been weakened to such an extent by political correctness and liberal ideas that by the time they wake up to what is going - it will be too late to defend themselves.

    From reading these forums we have a lot of people who have very questionable allegiances to the West and would readily side with the enemy or even worse become neutrals (pacifists).

    As a professional soldier, I am very worried about the future of my country and UK.

    Eurolord
    Last edited by eurolord; November 08, 2005 at 03:43 AM.
    To the Brave comes Honour and Victory. To the Weak comes Defeat and Dishonour.

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    Decanus
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    So they belong to radical islam, yet they do not listen to any muslim authority. The majority of imams have condemned the violence. And the union of islamatic (probably not an english word) organisations (the biggest fundamentalistic muslim organisation) has prohibited their followers to participate in the riots.
    These riots have little to do with religion, its all about poverty, discrimination, ....
    There goes the human intellect: give them an inch, and they run a mile in the wrong direction.

    Off all the gauls, the belgians are the bravest ... ==> Julius Caesar

  4. #4
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    Imans and the riots???

    Another typical liberal comment - no doubt learnt from some lecturer in a college or university.

    If this is true, the only reason these Imans are preventing their so-called followers from participating is because they know the time is not right (just yet) to do this.

    Im sure, if they thought they had a chance of winning, they would be fully behind these riots.

    Eurolord
    To the Brave comes Honour and Victory. To the Weak comes Defeat and Dishonour.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by eurolord
    Imans and the riots???

    Another typical liberal comment - no doubt learnt from some lecturer in a college or university.
    Is it just me, or does this guy have something of a hang-up about higher education?

    If this is true, the only reason these Imans are preventing their so-called followers from participating is because they know the time is not right (just yet) to do this.
    Did the voices in your head tell you this?

    Im sure, if they thought they had a chance of winning, they would be fully behind these riots.
    You're 'sure' of this based on what, other than bigotry with a heavy dash of weird paranoia?

  6. #6

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    Here in the Netherlands it is quite clear 'hostile radical immigrants' form a minority of all muslim immigrants. According to the intelligence agency there are probably several hundred radical islamists who may try to terrorise the 16 000 000 other citizens so I would say that this speculations about a 'civil war' between radical islam and the civilised world are quite unfounded. While the riots in France are problematic and should of course be ended by any means possible they only prove that the hopeless poor generally dislike the succesfull rich and that after several decades of ticking this timebomb will explode. There are plenty of examples of this in histry.

    With regard to the 'problem' of high fertility rates among the muslim population. In many parts of western and central Europe immigrants are the only demographic variable that can prevent our population from actually falling to a level to small to be able to support the massive number of elderly ppl. A large assimilated population of immigrants can be an advantage.

    This assimilation is as far as I know the only way to solve both existing and future problems. As a student at the university of utrecht I actually know quite many foreign students from muslim countries (granted, a relatively large part are not descendents of guest workers but rather descendents of politacal refugees, like Iran).

    In order to assimilate the muslim population we should take measures to defuse the 'ticking timebomb' (although it is not quite obvious that such a problem actually exists outside of France). If we make sure that those immigrants active in social and economic fields are not treated as parias from dirty north african lands these ppl will be economically more succesfull and integrate in the greater overall society. Integration is not a one way street, so some of these muslims may need some encouragement. However if we faill to give them the oportunity to integrate succesfull then we are partly(!) responsible for the activation of the timebomb ourselves. And as far as I know this is what happened in France.

    Mad 'Guitar' Murphy

    -----------------

    @ Dutchpower Please explain why the Netherlands has had the same problem as France has right now for years. Despite the fact that we do not live in a very large country we appear to have very different experiences. Despite the fact that I lived for a while in Kanaleneiland - Utrecht (known as one of the most 'muslim' neighberhoods in this city) I have actually never had any personal problems with immigrants.
    And although I generally read newspapers carefully I have never read anything about manjor riots with cars and schools being torched.
    Last edited by MadBurgerMaker; November 09, 2005 at 12:17 PM.

  7. #7
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    It looks like the rest of europe has the same problems holland has for years.
    Batavorum miliaria.

    "Tits or GTFO. You know the rules and so do I."

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    Another typical liberal comment - no doubt learnt from some lecturer in a college or university
    .......

    Reminds me of the old race riots that occured in the US. Whats ironic is that both started from a reason. If you would let rascism or your supposid "religious supremacy" aside you would actually look at the conditions. Governments basically abandoned and discriminated against these people, so they riot. Happened in the US, so its happening in Europe. However when it happens in Europe the government isn't Nazi and rascist of course, the government is just experiancing religious zealots who hate the country and take to the streets for Bin Ladin.

    The amount of fanatic and insane people on this board increases by the day, hopefully its not the reality of the world or else a new dark path in history is ahead. Please read and look up about this and dont listen to your ignorant next door neighbor who still calls black people :wub:. Also speaking of black people, they are also involved in these riots! Its people from the "ghetto" areas.

    And no, this type of opinion is not liberal, its moderate. You are about as extreme as you think these muslims are. I always think you can fight extremists with extremists..... however the world doesn't realize this. Awaiting another rascist, illinformed, and extremist comment to follow.

    And yes i consider hating muslims "rascist" as the people who hate them usually generalize muslims as arabs.

    edit: Completely idiotic posts from people obviously brainwashed on this board are literally starting to drive me insane. The world needs to end soon. When will zombies rise from the graves and the rivers flow with blood? Can't happen too soon. Saddam allready rebuilt babylon afterall.
    Swear filters are for sites run by immature children.

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    Deleted by user.
    Last edited by Kino; January 17, 2007 at 02:40 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dzoavits
    Russia - Deputy Speaker of the Russian Duma and leader of the Liberal Democratic Party of Russia Vladimir Zhirinovsky claims the riots were sparked by the American CIA to "weaken Europe".[134]

    Haha I knew they would find a way to link it back to the United States.
    Just so you know asfar as i know Zhirinovsky is a pretty crazy guy he talks about jews he's praised Hitler taked about taking back alaska nuke japan an so on

  11. #11

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    Like James Jesus Angleton...

  12. #12
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    Hi all,

    Thanks for the replies to my post. I assume from the post relating to my comments regarding higher education that you feel I am not educated just because my beliefs do not agree with your own. A rather stupid viewpoint.

    You are right though, I am not particulary impressed with the recent products coming out of our higher education system in the UK - the education standards we are achieving in this country are terrible.

    I am probably better educated and better travelled than most users on this board. I have actually lived with muslims in a number of countries, and not just as a soldier.

    I have no intention of "debating" the issue further. I think the future will tell us who is right and who is wrong.

    Eurolord
    To the Brave comes Honour and Victory. To the Weak comes Defeat and Dishonour.

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    my attitude to them is: "if you dont like our way of life, **** off"

    because really, its not their country, its ours. to live in it u must accept to live by the rules already laid down, and stop attempting to change the laws and convert everyone. I dont expect them to change everything in their country if i decided to live there...
    They have more rights in england than a person who's family has lived in the country for hundreds of years.

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carach
    my attitude to them is: "if you dont like our way of life, **** off"

    because really, its not their country, its ours. to live in it u must accept to live by the rules already laid down, and stop attempting to change the laws and convert everyone. I dont expect them to change everything in their country if i decided to live there...
    They have more rights in england than a person who's family has lived in the country for hundreds of years.
    I understand your concern very well, but we can't force Asians or Middle Easterns to play rugby...

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    Quote Originally Posted by leeho730
    I understand your concern very well, but we can't force Asians or Middle Easterns to play rugby...
    Sure you can.
    Just put their welfare money inside the ball and let them chase you across a field.

    (just kidding of course :wink: )

    Imans and the riots???

    Another typical liberal comment - no doubt learnt from some lecturer in a college or university.
    Yeah, damn liberals using facts in their arguments.
    Everybody knows the truth is biased towards the left.
    When do they learn it's not books and knowledge but daytime TV that leads people to the right opinions.

    It looks like the rest of europe has the same problems holland has for years.
    Seen any cars burning lately?
    Last edited by Erik; November 09, 2005 at 06:02 AM.



  16. #16
    Decanus
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carach
    my attitude to them is: "if you dont like our way of life, **** off"
    Wow. How tolerant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carach
    because really, its not their country, its ours.
    How is it "ours" (no idea who you're representing there)? I don't see your name on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carach
    to live in it u must accept to live by the rules already laid down, and stop attempting to change the laws and convert everyone
    Other religions try to convert everyone, why shouldn't they be allowed to? We let Christians preach to people, why shouldn't we let Muslims?

    And if everyone had always had to live by the laws that were already laid down, democracy as we know it today would never have existed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carach
    They have more rights in england than a person who's family has lived in the country for hundreds of years.
    How? Everybody is equal in the eyes of the law, how have they got more rights than you?
    And are you saying that people who've "lived in the country for hundreds of years" should have more rights than immigrants?

    Just a quick question, Carach, have you ever actually met a Muslim? Because I have, and the Muslims I've met have generally been nice, kind people.
    "War! What is it good for? Absolutely NOTHING!"- War, Edwin Starr

  17. #17
    Carach's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elu Barcino
    Wow. How tolerant.



    How is it "ours" (no idea who you're representing there)? I don't see your name on it.



    Other religions try to convert everyone, why shouldn't they be allowed to? We let Christians preach to people, why shouldn't we let Muslims?

    And if everyone had always had to live by the laws that were already laid down, democracy as we know it today would never have existed.



    How? Everybody is equal in the eyes of the law, how have they got more rights than you?
    And are you saying that people who've "lived in the country for hundreds of years" should have more rights than immigrants?

    Just a quick question, Carach, have you ever actually met a Muslim? Because I have, and the Muslims I've met have generally been nice, kind people.

    yes, i see christians trying to convert people in iran all the time...
    I am tolerant, i have muslim friends. However, he accepts british law and doesnt whine about how unfair everything is for them...

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carach
    yes, i see christians trying to convert people in iran all the time...
    Have you been to Iran?

  19. #19
    TW Bigfoot
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    to live in it u must accept to live by the rules already laid down, and stop attempting to change the laws and convert everyone.
    Quote Originally Posted by Carach
    yes, i see christians trying to convert people in iran all the time...
    well i don't know about Iran

    but here where i live (Britain) ive had people come to door, preach about jesus, preach about god, hand me leaflets on church sermons, ive had "the true quest for god" pamphlets through my door.(mostly i politely tell them to F off)

    but....i have yet to see a "Find Allah" or had any Muslim clerics come to my door telling me to convert.


    strange huh.
    all this apparent "Muslims trying to convert us" yet, i live in area with quite a few people who adhere to the Islamic faith (there's a mousqe about 3 minutes away from my house) and i have yet to experience this.

  20. #20
    First Crusader's Avatar Senator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfootedfred
    well i don't know about Iran

    but here where i live (Britain) ive had people come to door, preach about jesus, preach about god, hand me leaflets on church sermons, ive had "the true quest for god" pamphlets through my door.(mostly i politely tell them to F off)

    but....i have yet to see a "Find Allah" or had any Muslim clerics come to my door telling me to convert.


    strange huh.
    all this apparent "Muslims trying to convert us" yet, i live in area with quite a few people who adhere to the Islamic faith (there's a mousqe about 3 minutes away from my house) and i have yet to experience this.
    So preaching about Jesus is bad now?
    Heresy grows from idleness.

    No cause for such alarm. There are many ways for you to die - I'm just one of them.

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