Weaker units Vs stronger units?

[Puerkl8r]

Ok, as I said in my other thread, i am playing through the TW games in backwards order. One thing that it seems to me is that in RTW as opposed to M2TW, weaker units seem to have no value vs stronger units, For instance i just faught a battle where basically 1 unit of armored hoplites with like 3 groups of regular hoplites basically was able to kill my 4 groups of regular hoplites with 3 groups of hoplite militia 1 group of light cavalry my generals bodyguard, and a group of archers. In M2TW the weaker units can at least put up a fight, but i feel like they just walked through my units like they weren't even there. This was in a city defense also, wooden walls.

So my question is, is it worth it to keep these weaker units around, or do you just get rid of all your old units once you have access to the stronger ones?

[Lucarius]

you can replace your weak units for strong one.
but you can also use your weak units as your front line or for flanking. (or catching up javelins)
they are also good for watching over your city when your stronger troops are taking over other settelments.

[Kiwiphoenix]

Mm. In Rome, troop quantity means nothing against quality. Still, they can make good arrow sponges, since many have large shields, and can also be a solid reserve force. Send them in late in a battle - fresh militia can actually perform pretty well against exhausted elites, even in RTW.

[A Demented Goldfish]

delete post

[|Sith| Max]

Ok, as I said in my other thread, i am playing through the TW games in backwards order. One thing that it seems to me is that in RTW as opposed to M2TW, weaker units seem to have no value vs stronger units, For instance i just faught a battle where basically 1 unit of armored hoplites with like 3 groups of regular hoplites basically was able to kill my 4 groups of regular hoplites with 3 groups of hoplite militia 1 group of light cavalry my generals bodyguard, and a group of archers. In M2TW the weaker units can at least put up a fight, but i feel like they just walked through my units like they weren't even there. This was in a city defense also, wooden walls.

So my question is, is it worth it to keep these weaker units around, or do you just get rid of all your old units once you have access to the stronger ones?

every soldier can do something but you wont see peasants killing urbans with a nutbuster kick. happened to me general in mtw2 once. confusing as hell...
also quick heads up in this game HA are actually effective in cantabrian so dont underestimate em.

[Ruprecht]

Ok, as I said in my other thread, i am playing through the TW games in backwards order. One thing that it seems to me is that in RTW as opposed to M2TW, weaker units seem to have no value vs stronger units, For instance i just faught a battle where basically 1 unit of armored hoplites with like 3 groups of regular hoplites basically was able to kill my 4 groups of regular hoplites with 3 groups of hoplite militia 1 group of light cavalry my generals bodyguard, and a group of archers. In M2TW the weaker units can at least put up a fight, but i feel like they just walked through my units like they weren't even there. This was in a city defense also, wooden walls.

So my question is, is it worth it to keep these weaker units around, or do you just get rid of all your old units once you have access to the stronger ones?

Note that if you set the battle difficulty to anything higher than medium, your troops take extra damage. It is extremely unbalanced.

Assuming you have Battle difficulty on Medium, there are a few finer elements at play here, firstly the major differences Between Rome and M2TW, which are:


The stat system - In Rome there are huge differences in stats for each unit type, for example Hoplite militia vs Greek/Mercenary Hoplites. The discrepancy between the attack and defense is radical to say the least. Where as in M2TW the difference is relatively small between units.

Merc Hoplite : 7 attack - 16 defense
Hoplite militia : 5 attack - 8 defense



Experience bonus - In Rome, the stat bonus per Chevron is scaled much higher than in M2TW, so 3 bronze chevrons essentially means + 3 to attack/defense. Which plays a big part in the effectiveness of said unit.

The battle speed - Battles in Rome play out alot faster, generally giving you less time to react in battle. Units kill faster due to the combat system. Pausing the game to give commands i find to be useful, paying attention to all your units activity during battles becomes harder thus faster micro-management.


I recently came up against a very superior force, all i had were Militia vs the enemies general's and upgraded infantry, my forces were crushed, but i was determined to beat them so i reloaded and tried a few different tactics. Eventually after 6 replays i came out with a Heroic victory.

This was because i wasen't using my Phalanxes properly or at least how the game thinks i should use them. Sometimes its just a matter of fine tuning formations and fast micro-management that will save the day.


Here i defend a siege with very bad odds and even worse units, but you can see the effect that different formations can have in a tight situation.

[Genius of the Restoration]

Like M2TW cav in Rome is overpowered. Even the most basic cav units can easily turn a battle if you even vaguely use them well. In answer to OP's question: depends how good you are at the game. If you're still finding your feet with it you might want to take it slowly and upgrade to the latest units. If you've got some good battle map skillz, much of which is transferable from M2TW at least (haven't played later games), yu should be able to fight superior units with your own and not worry about it. You'd be the best judge of where you're at I imagine, so do what you like and challenge yourself to fight more tasking battles if you want to.

[Fireright]

Worth noting that in RTW Eastern Infantry and Hillmen are shod with Adidasum running sandals, and are the only units with the special 100m sprint crouch start animation.

Born Runners.

[Puerkl8r]

Ok, after the first post i figured out that hard mode is bad, not like it was in M2TW. I started a new game on medium and its going a lot better though armored hoplites are still very difficult to take down when the computer puts them in shield wall, and if they have more than 1 or 2 units of them and i dont have any myself, i may be in big trouble. I have no trouble against Egypt though.

Edit: Ok now greece is completely unstoppable, they have taken all of Macedon territory and are now marching 2 full stack armies and 1 half stack, each with at least 4-6 armored hoplites and balistas into my terrirtory. I'm considering starting a new game with campaign difficulty set to easy.

Also i have another problem that i have run into. I control probably 6-7 regions, and im getting into the tier 3 units however im finding it hard to upgrade my army due to the fact that im not generating enough money. To try and save money, im trying to keep smaller garrisons in most settlements, but that seems to egg on my neighbors to come try and take that settlement simply because it would be easy for them. I am constantly being attacked by greece and its allies, and now Egypt and its allies. I never really learned to manage this in the other TW games because in M2TW i used the Custom Campaign mod which apparently halves most upkeep costs so it wasnt an issue there, and in ETW it wasnt that hard to retake things you lost, and you could refill your army in the field, so more than a few armies were never necessary.

[Ruprecht]

Ok, after the first post i figured out that hard mode is bad, not like it was in M2TW. I started a new game on medium and its going a lot better though armored hoplites are still very difficult to take down when the computer puts them in shield wall, and if they have more than 1 or 2 units of them and i dont have any myself, i may be in big trouble. I have no trouble against Egypt though.

Edit: Ok now greece is completely unstoppable, they have taken all of Macedon territory and are now marching 2 full stack armies and 1 half stack, each with at least 4-6 armored hoplites and balistas into my terrirtory. I'm considering starting a new game with campaign difficulty set to easy.

Also i have another problem that i have run into. I control probably 6-7 regions, and im getting into the tier 3 units however im finding it hard to upgrade my army due to the fact that im not generating enough money. To try and save money, im trying to keep smaller garrisons in most settlements, but that seems to egg on my neighbors to come try and take that settlement simply because it would be easy for them. I am constantly being attacked by greece and its allies, and now Egypt and its allies. I never really learned to manage this in the other TW games because in M2TW i used the Custom Campaign mod which apparently halves most upkeep costs so it wasnt an issue there, and in ETW it wasnt that hard to retake things you lost, and you could refill your army in the field, so more than a few armies were never necessary.

Maybe i missed it, but what faction are you playing - Seleucid ?

[Ruprecht]

Proper Management of your cities is just as important as fighting battles. It is the backbone of your empire for financial and military purposes. you should learn about how economic buildings work and which has a greater effect on income. As early as possible you should invest in economic infrastructure to support your military in the long run.

The key to success is power and the key to power is money, carefully choose which cities will specialize in economic growth and military growth, its good to have a balance of both. for instance the location of certain cities reflects its economic potential, also being a Coastal city means trade fleets/additional income. So plan your infrastructure wisely.

Another way to bolster your economy is through population growth, investing in buildings that will boost population means you will advance in technology sooner, also complimenting either economic or military strength.

The first few Turns in your campaign are the most important, this is a time ripe with opportunity as there are lots of Rebel settlements up for grabs. From turn 1 you should already be organizing small armies to take these before other factions do.


In response the your troubles fighting battles against Hoplites:


The quality of troops does not always effect the outcome of battles, it is governed more by tactics. If you know your troops cannot stand Toe-to-toe with the enemy you must use other methods like exploiting weaknesses in their formation and take full advantage of the AI's stupidity. How i win most of my battles is by manipulation it is the strongest tool in your arsenal. One thing you never want to happen is for the enemy the Rush you, so place shock troops at your flanks or in front of your more vulnerable units, this will deter them from a brutal full army charge.

Use your Cavalry to sweep around behind them at a safe distance and see how they react, usually they will deploy a few units to pursue you, this is useful for splitting the enemies army in two .. while you kite them away with your cavalry use the opportunity to rush whats left with your main army.

Hoplites/Pikemen's main weakness is they move very slow, use this against them, flank them with your cavalry and watch their formation turn into a mess and tire them out. this will also give them a morale penalty, wait until they are most vulnerable before you attack. If you are using Hoplites against Hoplites make your formations wide, about 2-3 lines thick, this will serve two purposes. the enemy infantry can't wrap around yours and attack the flanks, while allowing you to do just that.

[Puerkl8r]

I'm playing a faction added by a mod, http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=263002
I have control of the coast all the way to Byzantium and the former Armanian territories.

[Puerkl8r]

after a few more battles, i have found that the axe unit is a pretty good counter to the armored hoplites, though with every army that i take out there seems to be 3 more lining up to fight, its take a toll on my army and my money.

[Genius of the Restoration]

I'm not sure what the upkeep levels of your units are, but looking at the map there have been new territories added, quite a few on the Black Sea. Sea trade is the most important area of income that you can easily influence, so take multiple seaside towns and build docks and their upgrades. Also take the Rhodes when you can to boost this income. Looking at the faction overview for your faction it seems quite well balanced. Importantly it has an archer unit and an elite archer unit. You can spam these against Greece no worries because they wont be able to touch you. Greek cav sucks and yours should be stronger (though I don't know how good the units in the roster are), if not, use the chariots.

What have you been building? Have you been building all the time?

[Puerkl8r]

Upkeep levels are pretty much the same as the other factions equivalent units. Yeah my archers are pretty much what is saving me from the greeks, though i can only build them at my original territories along with armored hoplites and axes so to reinforce Byzantium it takes some time. I have actually been trying to fight them in the open instead of waiting to defend simply because than i can utilize my cav and, than i can take each army individually instead of them all clustering around.

hmm ok, i started out mostly building things to increase pop growth, ie farms and public health buildings aside from barracks and ranges. I thought the higher pop growth would give pretty good boosts to income. I also thought markets would be more important to income than docks so i have kind of neglected docks on most of my territories. Also i had initially been exterminating every town that i captured but I am thinking that may not have been the best idea as some of my towns are really lagging behind in population at this point, Byzantium has a pop of like 400 at this point and its next upgrade is 6000, though that's because its been the focus of pretty much all my battles. Enslaving is probably the way to go. I am currently trying to build up an army on the other side of my territory to try and take some of the lesser defended Egyptian towns and maybe force a truce with them.

[Genius of the Restoration]

In my experience farms and public health buildings (when used for population growth) are usually not really worth it. Docks are definitely the way to go. Build roads too, they have a good effect even in small settlements and obviously help in army movement. Fighting in the field is a good choice against Greece for the reason you mentioned. It also allows you to get around the side and rear with your archers more easily to hit the Armoured Hoplites.

If you want to boost Byzantium's population I suggest removing all governors from all settlements other than Byzantium when you attack a settlement. Then enslave and the enslaved population will go to Byzantium. Do this a couple of times with reasonably sized cities and large cities and you should reach 6000 pop. in no time.

[Hopit]

3rd level farms must be your last farms, or you're squalor level skyrockets (if you're barbarian, 2nd level farms)

[|Sith|Galvanized Iron]

3rd level farms must be your last farms, or you're squalor level skyrockets (if you're barbarian, 2nd level farms)

...but farms also increases growth, which gives happiness.

Anyway a fully developed city could just lower its taxes and still have good income.

[Hopit]

...but farms also increases growth, which gives happiness.

Anyway a fully developed city could just lower its taxes and still have good income.

and squalor grows faster, unless having healt building and temples/shrines, there is no point building

[|Sith|Galvanized Iron]

and squalor grows faster, unless having healt building and temples/shrines, there is no point building

That makes sense, I've mostly played barbarians in BI to be honest, so you are probably right.