The Plato "code". (as if the DaVinci code was not enough)

[Garbarsardar]

The story: An English Academic discovers that Plato used a specific system in writing and placing words in his texts.

Kennedy divided the texts into equal 12ths and found that "significant concepts and narrative turns" within the dialogues are generally located at their junctures. Positive concepts are lodged at the harmonious third, fourth, sixth, eight and ninth "notes", which were considered to be most harmonious with the 12th; while negative concepts are found at the more dissonant fifth, seventh, 10th and 11th. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...l-musical-code

So far, so good. It is an important discovery, elucidating Plato's methods of composition and supports the stated importance of music and harmony in Plato's educational concept.

However, and while the whole story is only a couple of days old, this discovery is already burdened with a symbolic and epistemological meaning that seems, if not unjustified, somewhat premature and speculative:

"he wrote symbolically and that if you worked hard and became wise you could understand the symbols and penetrate his text to his underlying philosophy." Therefore a third layer is already assumed, in absence of real evidence.

Plato is revealed to be a Pythagorean who understood the basic structure of the universe to be mathematical, anticipating the scientific revolution of Galileo and Newton by 2,000 years.
As everyone else who wrote verse in ancient Greece, I guess.

He added: “The result was amazing. It was like opening a tomb and finding new set of gospels written by Jesus Christ himself.”
Ah, tombs, gospels...Jesus. I think we are in more familiar ground now.

Don't misunderstand me. I don't believe Kennedy is an exploitative illiterate like Dan Brown. He did put the work and he came up with verifiable results (apparently). Still, I'm afraid that the overinterpretation of his findings will lead to a new Plato cult, that will offer "exciting new discoveries" by inventing more layers of interpretation to quickly peel those off later.

[Alhamar]

Good God, Plato is a worth to read and then go to the neoplatonism and its simbology...But this? All again the same with the ''weird mathematic system that is supporting every sentence in each famous thinker's work''. Plus, how come did he study that? I suppose the texts of Plato are older transcriptions and also, Plato defense of the spoken language in opposition to the written way doesnt fit so well with this, doesnt it?

What do you think?

[Jom]

I'm always sceptical when hidden codes are discovered in texts as they are, more often than not, models that have simply been altered to exhaustion until some sort of coherent message begins to appear from the passages that your formula highlights.

I agree with you, Garb, that Kennedy seems to be getting way ahead of himself.

[Phier]

This guy is an Ubernerd, as only an ubernerd would be looking at such things.

Thats ok.

The problem is there is a subset of ubernerd which is incredibly naive. I have a friend like that. Hes very smart, very focused, likes to do obsessive nerdy things, but has no common sense. You find these types in academia all the time. I wouldn't be surprised if its an offshoot of the autism spectrum.

So this guy sees this pattern and just latches onto it. Hes excited, hes giddy, hes honest, but hes just so myopic he can't see how silly it seems.

[Marie Louise von Preussen]

That looks like bullcrap to me. I wouldn't be surprised if Plato put a poetic touch to his prose, since that's quite common, but he's going too far.

[Phier]

Well in a time before cheap paper, it would be easier to remember in prose.

[Turumba]

Well in a time before cheap paper, it would be easier to remember in prose.

Yes. But Kennedy seems get money, which another (real) project could surely use better...

Well, there are some interesting things about the "old way" of teaching. About rhythms of teaching, this rhythm is good for this topic, that rhythm for another. They found ways in ancient times to get sure that traditions, storys, laws and prays take there way through centuries- quite accurate. This was common in a lot of cultures before we begun or beeing able to write everything down in masses. Some say its a great loss, that we arent able to do so anymore.

I do really like Plato and his way of thinking concerning gods and human. But this, well, i guess Kennedy made the day for a lot of philologist!

[Ludicus]

It also explains why it is that Aristotle, Plato's pupil, emphatically claimed that Plato was a follower of Pythagoras

Not really. Well, Plato wasn´t a follower of of Pythagoras, but he was influenced by the Pythagorean school. In his own school, its entrance door was marked with the sign "let no one unversed in geometry enter here".
Foundations and fundamental concepts of mathematics

Plato influenced Heidelberg and quantum mechanics; Hermann on Heisenberg: "In the course of his life, Heisenberg assimilated a great many intellectual ideas, and the greatest influence of all was platonic philosophy"
Quantum mechanis is probabilistic; in fact, Plato states: "If in a discussion of many matters... we are not able to give perfectly exact and self-consistent accounts, do not be surprised: rather we would be content if we provide accounts that are second to none in probability"
Heisenberg explains: "modern physics takes a definite stand against the materialism of Democritus, and for Plato and the Pythagoreans.The elementary particles in Plato’s "Timaeus" are finally not substance but mathematical forms"

--------

What Are Quantum States? S. Malin Dept. of Physics and Astronomy :

The process of self-creation of an actual entity is not a process in time; it is, rather, an atemporal process leading to the momentary appearance of the completed actual entity in spacetime.
Quoting Whitehead: "In the process of self-creation which is an actual entity the genetic passage from phase to phase is not in physical time...the genetic process is not the temporal succession...Each phase in the genetic process presupposes the entire quantum"

1. The creation of time in Plato's Timaeus comes after many other acts of creation - all of these must be atemporal.

2. The Platonic "participation" of the Forms in sensible things is another example of atemporal processes.
3. Whitehead's thinking was Platonic, yet his precision was a mathematician's. Therefore his inclusion of atemporal processes in his system is significant.

[Marie Louise von Preussen]

In poetry, you mean?

[Phier]

In poetry, you mean?

Some sort of mnemonic cadence, I realized I said that wrong but was too lazy to edit.

[Odovacar]

Another wortheless "discovery"...

[conon394]

Another wortheless "discovery"..

Not necessarily if you really find particular styles or techniques in say Plato or Demosthenes you can better judge when works are wrongly attributed, false or contain later injections. Perhaps not some earthshaking event or even on the scale of discovering another dozen works on ancient constitutions from the school of Aristotle, but if holds up certainly useful.

Yes. But Kennedy seems get money, which another (real) project could surely use better...

Whoa now lets not be too harsh, it not like he's not likely teaching courses, and presumably his grad student aids TA as well. You think what some medical grant was bumped for this hardly? The scale of resources pales compared to the money handed to to hard science and so what you want to just axe history to save the money?

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

The Romans were teaching Reniassaince Ideas at the end of the western empire, but these were denounced by saint agustine with his only whats in the bible is true crap. (No offense to those that believe that), the romans were teaching galileios ideas of a heliocentric universe so it's plausible they saw what was in plato's writing and taught it to others

[Marie Louise von Preussen]

Ehrm, no.

[Golden Hawk]

From a phsychological PoV, I guess this might be one more of the cases where people tend to see order, unity and meanings, whereas in truth, they don't exists. Then when they're sold to the general public with enough "scientific" backing and confident people, these meanings suddenly become the truth. Same case as with the casino games. People tend to see a systematic circle in the machine, while in truth it's billions of units longs.

[Rolanbek]

I suppose the using poetic devices, would make sense for something which would have to be delivered as an oration.

Plato concept Rap battle anyone?

R