Public Research - Medieval Balkan Coat of Arms

[Vojdoo]

I thoth that this thred is about presenting coats of arms for balkan countreis...

About Balkan countreis that existed in the Middle Ages and Macedonia exist since 1991, I think that your posts are all offtopic!

[phoenix[illusion]]

some heraldry is incorrect and fake. it dates from 18th century book, and it's quite wrong.
for example that serbian coa that looks like byzantine actually appears in 15th century, while it is represented here as coa of Kingdom of Serbia

[Makedonij]

One thing notable, why is Macedonia allway first on Slavonic coats?
Oh yea that is becouse of Bulgarian suprime power or it was Greek?

[phoenix[illusion]]

Fojnički grbovnik

    

     

Grb Dušanovog Carstva prema Ilirskim grbovnicima

Beogradski grbovnik II - some of the coats

    

     

these are the fake ones, from 18th century books, not fojnica. those noble are right.
you can see that by serbian, bosnian and croatian coa, which did not excisted before 15th century (while that bosnian didn't exist at all)

[Makedonij]

In fact i would be most graitfull if somebody shows me more of them.Coats are my love side by side with castles

[dabela]

um, macedonians are actually bulgarians and partly serbians, but more bulgarians.
macedonian nation is product of 19th century, the birth of macedonian nation. so as for the montenegrinians, which are serbs.

I agree with this, but only partialy, because we cant exactly know which part is biger, the serbian or the bulgarian... other than that its all true...

[Makedonij]

So you say Bolgnia coats are fake and thouse of Altman too?

[phoenix[illusion]]

ok, i'm wrong, it was made by illyrian movement in 19th century not 18th, but still it's modern, so there you go, that's why macedonia is included as coa
quote from bosnian king, when i asked him about that book and bosnian coa

The COA you posted is the COA of Bosnia as it was created by the Illirian movement during the 19th century. The Bosnian fraters (franjevci) together with the Croatain fraters and other "south slavic" intelektuals tried to create an "Ilirian nation" we know this as the "Illirian movement" or (Ilirski pokret). They thought it was necessery because of the "dangerous" Hungarisation; because they thought that Hungaria wanted to assimilate all the south Slavs. So they were desperately searching for an ideology to unify all the south slavs. This ideology was the ideology of the "Illirians" and they explained all the south slavic peoples as "peoples of Illirian blood". Because it was difficult to unify those peoples under one flag they searched for an soulution. And they found that Croatian as well as Bosnian and Serbian and even Macedonian nobles had this simbol of the "cresent and the star" in their COA. So they decided to create a new sumbol for Bosnia which they considered the "heart of ILLIRIA".

So this Illirian movement is some kind of Romantic movement from the 19. century which tried to unify all the south slavs and this movement CREATED this flaf for Bosnia. You can read that this is true in many serious history Books but the fraters (franjeci) themelves admit also that this is true at their website.

If you have still questions just ask

good luck!

there is no historical coa of macedonia from middle ages or before 19th century, as independent state

[Makedonij]

Here is Žaferovič's book on line:
http://www.promacedonia.org/hzh/gal/000.html

[AnthoniusII]

Are you haveing fun??
Macedonians are Macedonians like it or not, if you dont like the posts i posted you can or i can delete them.
For falsification of the Macedonian coat from 1590, i hope that you have good arguments.Becouse as i now something about heraldic the first official Bulgarian coat is from the same book. And guess what how many Bulgarian coats can you provide?

The Bulgarian coat is Red lion on gold platform with one tail, while Macedonian is gold lion on red platform with two tails. They were changed for reason i dont know in printing the new book 200 years later by Vitezovič.....
Here is the change from 1740, in all other books the bulgarian lion is red and macedonian gold.



Here you can read in english there are also references if you thoth again something about fals post, did somebody falisificate coats on Bolgnia museum :
http://heraldika.org.mk/MKHerald-3.pdf

So the tail makes the diference..Hmmm i didn't know that.

RESPECT

Hrobatos you don't have enough knowage about Bulgaria to talk about macedonia
Just to let you know Asparukh's brother Kuber with his people setteled in nowadays macedonia the same time when the other Bulgars \Asparukh's\ came here...
Just to let you know when bulgaria was captured by Basilious II nowadays macedonian lands were called theme Bulgaria
Moreover Samuil's brother Aron had a son called Ivan-Vladislav, who had been a like NATIONALISTIC because there are several writings made by him where he claims that he is "bulgarian by birth" and so on.
At the time of liberation THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE officialy makes statistic which says :
in macedonia all iall there are 1 251 385 bulgarians, turks 463 387... and so on with greeks and serbs
It was part of the bulgarian chirch from 1870 \when the bulgarians got oun chirch \ to i-don't-know-when

Nowadays they are macedonians and I don't think that anyone wants them to be part of his country I personally dont as I hate traitors and thiefs. Let the albanians refresh their minds

Gogo you are right.
Lets supose that the lions are diferend!!! What about their language that is 80-90% bulgarian?
@Makedonij
My friend let me ask you one thing.
Where was macedonia ?
Around of Pelagonia plain or north of Constantinople?
Romans (byzantines) of 7th to 12th century called Macedonian the region north of Constantinople (west Thrace) .That is why Basill that was born there was the founder of the Macedonian dynasty.
The regions around Thessalonike was "Thessalonike's Thema/province".
Odd because Thessalonike was "capital" of Panellenion.
Panellenion means Wholle Hellenism ..Odd.
But it is true that many Bulgarian Tzars prefaired the Ochrid lake and its surroundings to establish pallace courts and administration structures.
Tzars settled a very large number of bulgarian fammilies in the Pelagonia plain (modern Scopjia) in order to control the region.
What remained as fact until 1912 was that north Pelagonia plain was dominated by bulgarian populations and south Pelagonia (Monastery city) was dominated by greek populations (80% greeks in the city according to CoN in 1913!!!)...
To claim that the lion is diferend is a joke. Bulgarians have also a number of versions of the lion also..
Greeks had flags with crosses,red on black background,white on blue background, black on white background. Does this means that those with the diferend flags belonged to diferend nations?
Byzantines had difrend flags for every region of theirs.Does this mean that the were not Romans(byzantines)?
History is based on logic 1st. When you are about to research history be sure that you have your eyes and mind wide open to logical steps.
I can quarandee you that you will learn. Maybe one day you will be able to prove me wrong but only with logic.

[gogo t]

Bulgarian coa by the time of Ivan Shishman

[Bagatyr]

Hrobatos you surprise me I expected fierce resistance from Serbs in the forum or some crazy makedonoid. don't make me laugh... you are saying that Western scientists and universities are Bulgarian propagandists that all ethnic census which were made by German and English, French, Russian scientists are propaganda? Why would the great powers work for a pour and small country that was just liberated from 450 years of turkish rule ?You are saying that the Bulgarian Exarchate is propaganda don't make me laugh it is a history fact http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_Exarchate






I don't see reason to prove something that is a fact acknowledg by the how scientific society.And i don't see reason to take Macedonia, she alone will united with Bulgaria when the population there realyse the Truth about there origin and history .And this is a process that allredy started .


Bulgaria take it for the furst time around 690 and was dominated bye bulgarian rule untile 1330 when the serbian expansion that last to 1371 - the serbian origin of the majority of the population is unfounded there could be some small groups that are serbian influens but they are from the Ygoslav period .Dushan the powerful him self titled :Emperor of serbians and greeks and not a small part of Bulgaria-it is clear that he ment today FYROM and some of the lands of today eastern Serbia because the historycall Serbian lands are Shumadia ,Most of Kosovo ,Montenegro,and part of Bosnia .



wrong ! In 19 centry Macedonia was a cultural center for the emerging bulgarian bourgeoisie .The raise of the macedonian crap began in 1945 when Tito,Dimitrov and Stalin decaidet to creat a new nation .The comunists start work on creating history,langueg and deletion the name bulgarian from churches, documents
memorials and evan the bulgarian military cemeteries!

[phoenix[illusion]]

Historical maps, whith no macedonia on it
http://0.tqn.com/d/historymedren/1/0/O/9/eurse1000b.gif
http://0.tqn.com/d/historymedren/1/0/M/9/eurse1040b.gif
http://0.tqn.com/d/historymedren/1/0/I/9/eurse1180b.gif
http://0.tqn.com/d/historymedren/1/0/G/9/eurse1210b.gif
http://0.tqn.com/d/historymedren/1/0/E/9/eurse1340b.gif
http://0.tqn.com/d/historymedren/1/0/C/9/eurse1354b.gif
http://0.tqn.com/d/historymedren/1/0/A/9/eurse1401b.gif

[gogo t]

Ok, Ok people... lets stop that... We are all grown mеn and we live in free world... anyone can think whatever he wants... concetrait on the topic...
As far as i know btw Byzys didn't use COAs a lot... they were much more used in the west because of the knights, bcuase it made them easy for identification \it would be hard to identificate someone with so much iron on him \ I would guess that Bulgarians didint use coas a lot too.. as we had some cultural influence by byzantines not by latins

[phoenix[illusion]]

Ok, Ok people... lets stop that... We are all grown mеn and we live in free world... anyone can think whatever he wants... concetrait on the topic...
As far as i know btw Byzys didn't use COAs a lot... they were much more used in the west because of the knights, bcuase it made them easy for identification \it would be hard to identificate someone with so much iron on him \ I would guess that Bulgarians didint use coas a lot too.. as we had some cultural influence by byzantines not by latins

yup, and i should not go into conflict since i'm a moderator of this sub-forum
anyways, from Ian Heath's book: "Serbia was the first state on Balkan that had heraldry"

[Makedonij]

Balkan madnes , no way of communication just negation

Here is Slovenian and Croatian

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Siebenbuergen, Slawonien

[Makedonij]

Delete it

[phoenix[illusion]]

Dushan the powerful him self titled :Emperor of serbians and greeks and not a small part of Bulgaria-it is clear that he ment today FYROM and some of the lands of today eastern Serbia because the historycall Serbian lands are Shumadia ,Most of Kosovo ,Montenegro,and part of Bosnia

hh, not most of the kosovo, whole kosovo was in serbian state from the beginnings. anyways, i've added macedonians as serbs too cause serbs held macedonia for some time, and after second balkan war it was in part of serbia till fall of yugoslavia. so, macedonian language is influenced by serbian, and it is similar to serbian than bulgarian, but they are mostly bulgarians, with mix of serbians

[Makedonij]

Rulers

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Avramovic, Badovinac, Badrljica


Batalovic, Bibic, Bozic


Herakovic, Kosaca, Bajic


Bastasic, Moconji, Orlovic


Sankovic, Balsic, Balsic


Avakumovic, Brankovic, Brankovic



Carnojevic, Buca. Jaksic


Kubura, Miloradovic, Luccari


Milosevic, Ivanovic, Mrnjavcevic


Milutinovic, Nimicic, Nako


Nikolic, Rebraca, Pozza

Tesic, Stratimirovic, Sudic


Tapavica, Vojinovic, Vusadin


Tvrtko II, Brankovic, Knezevic


Popovic, Radivojevic, Resetar


Supljikac, Tvrtko I, Vukcic


Mitrovici-Jankovici, Djurovic, Mladicevic


Zefarovici, Tvrtko II, Tvrtko III


Tvrtko IV, Vukotic

[Bagatyr]

Nikola i meen that there where times when some of the Kosovo land was taken by Bulgarians as in the time of Ivan Asen II