Cheney urges exception to torture ban for CIA

[Total Warrior X]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9929724/

so much for compassionate conservatism

[eltrevo]

further evidence that the bush regime should be removed from power.

[Atheist Peace]

Just shows how the christian right does not admit their real motives. We already know the gay thing is just because half of them are gay, and the other half is afraid of being gay, but this shows that their real motives in abortion and other things is just to either control people or "be right." Because any real christian, like Jimmy Carter, wouldn't tolerate this.

[Major König]

Just shows how the christian right does not admit their real motives. We already know the gay thing is just because half of them are gay, and the other half is afraid of being gay, but this shows that their real motives in abortion and other things is just to either control people or "be right." Because any real christian, like Jimmy Carter, wouldn't tolerate this.

Christian bashing again? Aiyah.. But I do think it is another reason for the bush regime to step down. Valeria is correct in stating the true definition of torture, and how it is against american ideology. But if you ask me, torture should be used in some cases, even against the geneva Convention. If you look at the situation, and the person you have in custody, sometimes it is neccessary.

[Atheist Peace]

Christian bashing again? Aiyah.. But I do think it is another reason for the bush regime to step down. Valeria is correct in stating the true definition of torture, and how it is against american ideology. But if you ask me, torture should be used in some cases, even against the geneva Convention. If you look at the situation, and the person you have in custody, sometimes it is neccessary.

Actually...if you read my post, you'd see that I wasn't bashing christians at all. I was "bashing" people who use christianity as a means to promote their personal agendas that are really only greed or fear. You call yourself a "true christian" so you should agree here.

[Darth Wong]

Indeed, I saw an article in Harper's about how Christianity in America has taken on a hostile character which is contrary to the way Jesus himself behaved or taught.

[Last Roman]

Indeed, I saw an article in Harper's about how Christianity in America has taken on a hostile character which is contrary to the way Jesus himself behaved or taught.

oh im sure Jesus is spinning in his grave..or rather heaven

[RusskiSoldat]

This is utter :wub:. I mean, I support torture, but when you claim to be brining freedom and democracy, it's hypocritic to support it.
/Stalinist rant

[Atheist Peace]

You don't actually think they went to war to "bring freedom and democracy" do you?

[over-man]

I agree with RusskiSoldat, i'd rather be tortured by the United States than any other country on earth.(but who knows, maybe in a couple years we'll be chopping off limbs too)

But what surprises me most is, how little outrage there is in public or the media, whenever Bush or his cronies wipes their ass with the constitution.

[Farnan]

The White House initially tried to kill the anti-torture provision while it was pending in the Senate, then switched course to lobby for an exemption in cases of “clandestine counterterrorism operations conducted abroad, with respect to terrorists who are not citizens of the United States.” The president would have to approve the exemption, and Defense Department personnel could not be involved. In addition, any activity would have to be consistent with the Constitution, federal law and U.S. treaty obligations, according to draft changes in the exemption the White House is seeking.

Seems you forgot this part.

The Senate recently approved a provision banning the “cruel, inhuman or degrading” treatment of detainees in U.S. custody.

That is a very broad statement, it may include solitary confinement or just plain insulting the guy.

[Erik]

It wil be interesting to see the right jump to protect Cheney again.

One possitive thing: at least now the US administation admits they support torture.
This wil make debating so much easier.
And hopefully my country wil finally stop handing over prisoners to the US (according to our law they can't hand over nay prisoners to countries that condone torture).

[Farnan]

It wil be interesting to see the right jump to protect Cheney again.

And interesting to see the left jump to attack him without all the facts.

[Empyrean]

We've got a weird notion of "torture." Confusing someone until they don't know what's going on, and then asking them questions (all without any physical harm) counts as torture. Sensory deprivation is "torture." Solitary confinement is "torture."

Supporting any of those methods means you support "torture". Where the anti-Bush circlejerk in the thread screws up is the belief that "torture" only means pulling out fingernails and other forms of physical harm, or that the United States supports those things. So yeah... the United States supports the use of sensory deprivation, solitary confinement, and confusion as information gathering techniques when used against non-citizens involved in attacks against the United States who are not backed by any national government. OH NOES! EVIL EVIL EVIL!!!

[aves]

All governments have and will use torture to gather intel. Our Congress is just dumb enough to talk about it in public. I understand the Democrats need to expose the evils of the Bush administration... but this is too much. In the following years a Democrat administration will need to use torture too. Politicians are more than willing to sacrifice the future safety and well being of the nation for short-term gains in the US. The Republicans will live to regret the "nuclear option" if they use it in judicial nominations (since they will want to fillibuster themselves in a few years) and the Democrats will be horrifies when they need to gather international intelligence without any means to extract it from captured foreign nationals.

When its a dime today or a dollar tomorrow, count on American politicians to be short sited everytime.

[RZZZA]

I don't think the entire notion of what we're doing in Iraq is shortsited....


Anyway, to play Devil's Advocate: Republican I could say that America needs torture to gain information in order to succesfully protect our citizens (or possibly some other country that is allied to us). Perhaps if we tortured some poor muslim a little bit more we could have prevented the bombings in Madrid, or 9/11 itself but the cry baby peepants Democrats would have us hand out hugs and kisses to our enemies instead of options like A. swift death or B. slow torture. Vote republican, working together to serve you better!




*vomit*

[RusskiSoldat]

You don't actually think they went to war to "bring freedom and democracy" do you?

Obviously not, but it was a semi believable lie up to this moment.

Wait, disregard that last part, solitary confinement is torture???
OMG how liberal did the world become.

[RZZZA]

Not liberal enough apparently. What Cheney SHOULD do is come out and declare "No more torture!" and democrats and republicans alike should all throw up their arms and yell "Hooray!" and chmpagne would be uncorked and people would get down and funky.

Of course they can still torture people behind the scenes if they want but the important thing for Americas image right now is to declare "No more torture, hoo-rah!"...

[Tom Paine]

Can I remimnd people that solitary confinement is the least of a prisoner of the US's worries? The US has a little policy shared with Britain of handing people over to dictatorships with no compunction about torture, like Uzbekistan, and then using the intelligence gathered. In fact in the UK it has been suggested that this evidence could be used in a court of law.

[Legio XX Valeria Victrix]

The problem with this is the slippery slope it creates, don't you see? If you can cite for me the direct passages in the Geneva Convention that say confusion, sensory deprivation, and solitary confinement are considered forms of torture, than please do. I understand some very liberal people in America today consider these things torture, but we are arguing based on the Geneva Conventions here. The only document that matters in this debate is what it says in there.

I, for one, think when Cheney refers to torture, he doesn't consider it limited to confusion, sensory deprivation, and solitary confinement. These are tactics that domestic police forces use to interrogate suspects. These are not forms of torture, to most people. Torture is the usage of inflicting physical pain upon a suspect to gain knowledge they might otherwise not divulge, and I would oppose this in any case, against any enemy. Especially in this case, we are dealing with a group of people that are fanatical enough to fly planes into buildings and willingly kill themselves to fulfill their objectives. Why are our leaders so arrogant to think that a little physical pain will make them spill their guts. It will simply be one more error in a campaign littered with them so far, and it will be one more reason for the world to hate us. Not to mention that legalizing torture is 100% against the ideals that America was based on, but those ideals seem farther away than ever these days.