Is the God of the Old and New Testament the same as Allah?

[Richard the Lionheart]

An idea derived from the latter parts of this thread:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=36936

We have to of course use the religious texts of each religion (Bible and Koran) as important points of reference. So don't just make stuff up :wink:!

Keep it clean and be respectful.

[leeho730]

Nope. God of Old Testament and God of New Testament are different as well.

[Ecclesiastes]

Nope. God of Old Testament and God of New Testament are different as well.

Please explain this... If you're trying to say that the God of the New Testament was much more forgiving than the God of the Old Testament then your right.

I think the God of the Old and New Testament is the same as Allah only differently interpretated. Abraham is the father of both people before they (both people) fought and seperated with one side calling themselves Arabs I believe.

[leeho730]

Please explain this... If you're trying to say that the God of the New Testament was much more forgiving than the God of the Old Testament then your right.

Then I suppose God does change?

I think the God of the Old and New Testament is the same as Allah only differently interpretated. Abraham is the father of both people before they (both people) fought and seperated with one side calling themselves Arabs I believe.

I wish they were the same entity, but theoligians would argue otherwise...

[SilentSavage]

Nope. God of Old Testament and God of New Testament are different as well.

God is our father who art in heaven.

If someone put you in danger would your earthly father be angry?

If you needed to fight to survive would your earthly father support you?

If you did wrong and then was repentant, and you asked your earthly father for forgiveness would he forgive you?

God is the perfect father, so he is a God of Love, Anger, War, and Forgiveness depending on what is appropriate.

[Ummon]

Someone should pm a moderator and ask him to split previous thread and merge with this one.

[Peachy Carnehan]

I believe it is in fact bascially the same. Jesus is regarded as a prophet, and Mohammad is simply the "seal of the prophets", the last of them, in a line of prophets going back to Abraham.

[Richard the Lionheart]

I believe it is in fact bascially the same. Jesus is regarded as a prophet, and Mohammad is simply the "seal of the prophets", the last of them, in a line of prophets going back to Abraham.

I agree with this. For numerous reasons of course. If you read the Koran you'll find a lot of interesting information that supports this arguments. I've read over the Koran several times in order to understand Islam better and I've concluded that the Christian God is the same as Allah. Why? Because for one thing in the Koran all the past prophets are referred to and acknowledged as prophets of God, these include Moses, Abraham, Jesus, and Muhammed. I believe the Zoroasterian religion is referred to as well, which means that the Zoroasterians believed the same God as well. In the Koran the Jews, Muslims, and Christians are all referred to as believers and the followers of the same God. As far as the Koran in concerned, the god of the Christians, Muslims, Jews, and even Zoroasterians is the same.

According to Islam Muhammed is the last prophet of a series of prophets sent by God and that therefore Islam is the most complete religion. In several books I have even read that Jesus knew of the comming of Muhammed. That Jesus infact knew he was not the last prophet. Remember now Islam refers to Jesus as a prophet and not the son of God. Furthurmore in the Koran one can find references to a Heavenly Book insicribed on a "preserved tablet", from which all prophetic revelations, including the Jewish, Christian, Zoroastrian, and Muslim are drived.

[BassV2]

If God thinks I'm just as bad as Adolf Hitler because I don't go to church on Sundays, then he's an idiot.

Lol, you certainly don't think do you ? IF there is a heaven and a hell, where do the in betweens go ? Earth ?

LOL. Look at this way.

You and Adolf Start off as White Clothes.
You hvae dots of black all over it, and adolf has a couple of blobs.

The statement is true:

"Both of you have dark blotched up sheets that used to be completely white"

[Ecclesiastes]

I believe He did change. It makes you wonder why an allknowing person couldn't forsee that humans would be a big failure and they wouldn't follow him, they would just sin, sin and sin. I would like to know why God changed in an eye for an eye to forgiving "everything"...

[visigothe]

wasnt that jesus saying that god would forgive all your sins?

i dont remember much god in the new testament a lot of jesus.

besides the biggest god related chapter in the new testament is revalations

lets talk about forgiving

damn

[Darth Wong]

Frankly, the Old Testament God, while a hateful and despicable creature, at least makes sense and is consistent with himself. In contrast, the New Testament ideology never made any sense to me. I was told from a young age that Jesus was a great guy because he loved everyone, and that we should follow his example by loving our neighbours. OK, I had no problem with that. Sounds great. But then I heard the weird part: I was told that everybody is equally sinful in God's eyes because no one is morally perfect; this made no sense to me as a child, and it makes no sense to me as an adult. If God thinks I'm just as bad as Adolf Hitler because I don't go to church on Sundays, then he's an idiot.

But that wasn't enough; then I was told that somehow, Jesus being crucified absolved me of responsibility for my own sins. How does that work, exactly? Why does killing Jesus take away my responsibility for crime? I was told that he "died for our sins", but what does that mean? Why does that work? Why is God any more inclined to forgive anyone for sins if his boy was slaughtered? He's just some kind of weird randomly vengeful psychopath who wants somebody to suffer and doesn't care who, even if it's his own son?

And then, the crowning glory is that in the Book of Revelations, this same Jesus comes back with a sword sticking out of his mouth and starts slaughtering the infidels. What happened to the "love your neighbour" and "let he who is without sin throw the first stone" guy? Oops, I guess his old man taught him how to be a psychopath after the big post-crucifixion homecoming.

The New Testament God isn't even consistent with himself, never mind the Old Testament God or Allah. Once you recognize that there is precious little consistency in the Bible, it becomes easier to recognize that Allah has just as much claim on a relation to the Old Testament God as Jesus does, if not more.

[Chiron202]

Frankly, the Old Testament God, while a hateful and despicable creature, at least makes sense and is consistent with himself. In contrast, the New Testament ideology never made any sense to me. I was told from a young age that Jesus was a great guy because he loved everyone, and that we should follow his example by loving our neighbours. OK, I had no problem with that. Sounds great. But then I heard the weird part: I was told that everybody is equally sinful in God's eyes because no one is morally perfect; this made no sense to me as a child, and it makes no sense to me as an adult. If God thinks I'm just as bad as Adolf Hitler because I don't go to church on Sundays, then he's an idiot.

You're thinking about it all wrong, especially for someone apparently brought up in the church. In order to get into heaven we need to be perfect. I.E. your total number of sins for your lifetime cannot be greater than or equal to 1. If it is you need Jesus intercesion to get into heaven. (I don't feel like explaining that right now, maybe later, but I can't have you thinking God is an idiot.) SO... Hitlers Sins = about 13,000,000,000. Your lifetime sins = about 14,600 (Say your 20, and have commited about 2 sins a day consistently.) Both of those exceed 1, so guess what, you get to go to hell just like hitler! And Jesus' death brings everybody's count back down to 0. That is all being equally sinful before god means. Same exact same consequence for disbelief, same benifits for belief.

EDIT: took out an "r" in the you of the second paragraph, second line that made the sentence almost impossible to read, i now realize almost 13 hours after the fact

[Darth Wong]

You're thinking about it all wrong, especially for someone apparently brought up in the church.

I was taken to church as a child because my immigrant parents thought it would be a good way to integrate into the community, but I was not "brought up in the church", in the sense that I didn't get indoctrination at home. My parents are both scientists, and thought of religion more as a community function than a viable explanation for how things are. Any questions I had were fielded by the Sunday School teacher, who gave rather unsatisfactory answers.

In order to get into heaven we need to be perfect. I.E. your total number of sins for your lifetime cannot be greater than or equal to 1.

Isn't that the same thing I said? Anybody who is not morally perfect is treated equally?

If it is your need Jesus intercesion to get into heaven. (I don't feel like explaining that right now, maybe later, but I can't have you thinking God is an idiot.) SO... Hitlers Sins = about 13,000,000,000. Your lifetime sins = about 14,600 (Say your 20, and have commited about 2 sins a day consistently.) Both of those exceed 1, so guess what, you get to go to hell just like hitler!

As I said, this is the same thing I said: I am regarded just like Adolf Hitler in God's mind. And let's keep in mind that God himself slaughtered far more people than Hitler if you take the Bible literally; he seems to be a "do as I say, not as I do" kind of guy.

And Jesus' death brings everybody's count back down to 0. That is all being equally sinful before god means. Same exact same consequence for disbelief, same benifits for belief.

But this is precisely what I was asking about in the thread; why should killing Jesus remove responsibility for one's own actions? The whole Christian ideology just doesn't make any sense, and people only think it makes sense because they keep repeating its axioms: "Jesus died for our sins, Jesus died for our sins, Jesus died for our sins". Keep repeating it your whole life and you stop questioning whether it makes any sense.

[Chiron202]

Yeah, but you called god an idiot for seeing us and hitler as moral equals, there is nothing idiotic about the system i described. I don't see how you can say that Gdd is an idiot in light of what you apparently already know. ("Isn't that the same thing I said?")

Bible says not to question the motives of God in multiple places. If you cannot accept that based on faith, you'll never arrive at an answer to your questions. (not that that is an answer in and of itself, but it's nice to know i don't have to think about it.)

[Darth Wong]

Yeah, but you called god an idiot for seeing us and hitler as moral equals, there is nothing idiotic about the system i described. I don't see how you can say that Gdd is an idiot in light of what you apparently already know. ("Isn't that the same thing I said?")

If I treated the lady at the grocery store the same way I treat Hitler, then I would be an idiot. Yes, God is an idiot for treating all sins equally.

Bible says not to question the motives of God in multiple places.

So? It also says not to eat shellfish.

If you cannot accept that based on faith, you'll never arrive at an answer to your questions. (not that that is an answer in and of itself, but it's nice to know i don't have to think about it.)

All I'm pointing out is that the ideology doesn't make any sense. This thread was spawned from a previous thread in which someone claimed that Islam can't have the same God as Christianity because it is not consistent with Christianity or even itself, and I'm just pointing out that the same criticism can be made of Christianity: it doesn't make sense and it is not self-consistent.

[Ecclesiastes]

I've never heard of this "But then I heard the weird part: I was told that everybody is equally sinful in God's eyes because no one is morally perfect; this made no sense to me as a child, and it makes no sense to me as an adult. If God thinks I'm just as bad as Adolf Hitler because I don't go to church on Sundays, then he's an idiot." I have to say you make some interesting points there darth wong that I myself can't answer.

About Jesus dying for our sins is Gods way of saying to humanity that he loves them so much he would give his only son to them and also forgiving them for all there sins including crucifing him. leaving him at the mercy of men ended up him being crucified but still God was forgiving... takes a pretty loving person to do that...

[Darth Wong]

I've never heard of this "But then I heard the weird part: I was told that everybody is equally sinful in God's eyes because no one is morally perfect; this made no sense to me as a child, and it makes no sense to me as an adult. If God thinks I'm just as bad as Adolf Hitler because I don't go to church on Sundays, then he's an idiot." I have to say you make some interesting points there darth wong that I myself can't answer.

That's the problem the Sunday School teacher had too. As you can imagine, I was a bit of a disruptive influence in that class. I still remember arguing with him about the Noah's Ark story too

About Jesus dying for our sins is Gods way of saying to humanity that he loves them so much he would give his only son to them and also forgiving them for all there sins including crucifing him. leaving him at the mercy of men ended up him being crucified but still God was forgiving... takes a pretty loving person to do that...

If he loves them so much, why not simply forgive them their sins? Why go through this whole crucifixion scheme?

[Chiron202]

And I say that the ideology makes tons of sence, read into it more, you'll find answers, and they are consistent. Obviously anyone that rebuts a biblcal reference with "So? It also says not to eat shellfish." hasn't read the bible enough to have an intelligent debate on what it says.

[Darth Wong]

And I say that the ideology makes tons of sence, read into it more, you'll find answers, and they are consistent.

If it makes sense, why can't you explain it without resorting to telling people that they just have to believe it?

Obviously anyone that rebuts a biblcal reference with "So? It also says not to eat shellfish." hasn't read the bible enough to have an intelligent debate on what it says.

You can't prove that Christian ideology makes sense by quoting a Bible reference telling me not to question it, so it is perfectly legitimate to answer to that non-point by reminding you that the Book of Leviticus says not to eat shellfish.