Tensions in East Asia with regards to WW2

[Wild Bill Kelso]

Please use this thread to discuss the politcal tension between the Current political leaders of Japan and thier lack of respect for thier neighbours in regards to the autrocities commited by the Imperial Japanese Army in World War 2. For some background please view this thread;

Korean occupation

I personally think that Japan needs to once and for all address her wartime past in a more open manner. The whole Yasukuni meyhem could be so easily resolved if the simply "extricated" the souls of the war criminals. I am not sure why they can't do this..

[leeho730]

Koreans fared better than Chinese because Koreans were not on war with Japanese. Korean peninsular had become a quite stable base for the Japanese army by 1930's. It was Chinese people who suffered terribly throughout the war.

But then again, people seem to think that millions of deaths of civilians are an unimportant detail when talking about wars...

[RZZZA]

Well, Japan had a unique way of waging war...they waged total war until victory or death. Americans accepted this, that was why we dropped the two bombs remember? Because we were afraid that an invasion of mainland Japan would be disastrous as it seemed every Japanese male had a sword or lots of swords and was terrifylingly proficient with it....not to mention they would fight with ferocity and unrelenting fury until death. They expected nothing less from their enemies and would not accept surrender, according to the bushido which so many japanese honored and idealized, surrender was a fate worse than death and the only honorable way out was to fight to the death or hari-kari which is the same as committing seppuku or simply "suicide". I may be wrong on a few things here and if so correct me...

I was under the impression that Americans and the Japanese alike have gotten over their past and come to terms to what has happened...remember many americans were also massacred in japanese captivity...I think Japan is a drastically different country today compared to where it was in the 1940's and 50's...they have all but abandoned their war like and bushido ways and are a seemingly calm, industrious people now. Am I wrong?

If other asians have beef with Japan then fine, I understand they feel wronged for the genocides that took place on their soil but at some point you have to kinda move on already...I mean this happened over 50 years ago.

[leeho730]

No. Japan is still run by same, or very similar group of ultra-right conservative that caused pacific war. They periodically assassinate oppositions (mainly left-wing politicians who dare to speak against them openly, especially in parliament). Assassins are mainly hired yakuza (with swords!)

Unlike Germany, Japan didn't get a thorough trial to punish war criminals.

[RZZZA]

politicians hiring yakuza to do their dirty deeds? Yikes that sounds horrible...reminds me of O-Ren Ishii in Kill Bill and her Yakuza gang.

[Wild Bill Kelso]

No. Japan is still run by same, or very similar group of ultra-right conservative that caused pacific war. They periodically assassinate oppositions (mainly left-wing politicians who dare to speak against them openly, especially in parliament). Assassins are mainly hired yakuza (with swords!)

Not that I am disagreeing with you but how did you come across this information?

[barbarion horde]

Don't worry, Leeho is obviously joking

[leeho730]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakuza

http://www.publicintegrity.org/ga/co...p&act=timeline

October 2002 – Democratic Party of Japan (DPJ) legislator and anti-corruption crusader Koki Ishii, is stabbed to death in front of his home. An ultra-right-wing extremist of Shukojuku (Save the Emperor) admits to the crime, the first political assassination since 1960.

Not to mention many people would not openly speak against LDP (Liberal Democrats-funny name for ultra-conservatives!), especially regarding WWII war crimes, for fear of life.

[Carach]

No. Japan is still run by same, or very similar group of ultra-right conservative that caused pacific war. They periodically assassinate oppositions (mainly left-wing politicians who dare to speak against them openly, especially in parliament). Assassins are mainly hired yakuza (with swords!)

Unlike Germany, Japan didn't get a thorough trial to punish war criminals.

i think youll find the army ran things indirectly from the depression through to the end of ww2.

the situation in manchuria was caused by the japanese army staging the whole thing, then refusing to withdraw after the politicians told them to.

then all the assassinations, then puppet ministers, and so forth.

the emperor was also easily swayed it seems.

you may be right though

[Kanaric]

Koreans fared better than Chinese because Koreans were not on war with Japanese. Korean peninsular had become a quite stable base for the Japanese army by 1930's. It was Chinese people who suffered terribly throughout the war.

But then again, people seem to think that millions of deaths of civilians are an unimportant detail when talking about wars...

two words, pleasure women. Korea was every bit as bad, they were just treated in a different way almost like slaves.

[leeho730]

two words, pleasure women. Korea was every bit as bad, they were just treated in a different way almost like slaves.

Koreans were treated comparatively OK before the war.

Pleasure women: it wasn't only in Korea, but EVERYWHERE, including Philiphinos and Dutch and other unfornatuate European women. Japanese soldiers did seem to have some wild taste for women...

[leeho730]

They are all corrupt and China does not have a good record either.

[RZZZA]

If you wanna talk strictly government corruption theres no better place to start than America...honestly all government will always have some degree of corruption...so to compare which countries corruption is worse is kinda pointless.

[leeho730]

http://www.publicintegrity.org provides a fairly good information and data comparison.

[Kanaric]

I know about he pleasure women being everywhere. Thats exactly the point, they treated EVERYONE poorly so everything they did should be looked down. ESPECIALLY how they treated POW soldiers.

Whats ironic is that people constantly ***** about us dropping the bomb but then ignore their treament of civilians all over the pacific.

[leeho730]

I know about he pleasure women being everywhere. Thats exactly the point, they treated EVERYONE poorly so everything they did should be looked down. ESPECIALLY how they treated POW soldiers.

Whats ironic is that people constantly ***** about us dropping the bomb but then ignore their treament of civilians all over the pacific.

Well, please have a look at the Ummon's Guid to Successful Arguments(TM) beow:

Ummon's Guide to Successful Arguments :wink:

1) evidence.
2) be (covertly) more dishonest than he is, while stating the truth.
3) fallacious arguments are easily broken, you just need to prove that they are inherently nonconsequential.

Well, Japanese DO have concrete evidences about the bomb (1) and portrayes themselves as a victim while not mentioning all the atrocities they did or denying it ever happened (2).

[Ummon]

Well, please have a look at the Ummon's Guid to Successful Arguments(TM) beow:

Originally Posted by Ummon

Ummon's Guide to Successful Arguments

1) evidence.
2) be (covertly) more dishonest than he is, while stating the truth.
3) fallacious arguments are easily broken, you just need to prove that they are inherently nonconsequential.

Only this isn't Ummon's guide to successful arguments, but Schopenauer's "Art of debate" (notice I translated the title roughly).

Furthermore, while I love to instruct on technical details, I do tend to remain inside logics usually, and to use rhetorics only when the opponent is undeserving of attention. :wink:

Yet you will realize, that I am not a Japanese...

[Empyrean]

If you wanna talk strictly government corruption theres no better place to start than America...honestly all government will always have some degree of corruption...so to compare which countries corruption is worse is kinda pointless.

We get it: you hate America. That's fine and I don't care, but what you said has got to be the dumbest thing I've seen all day. In Mexico, $20 will get you out of almost any trouble with the cops and officials there. Try that in the United States. You can compare corruption between countries, because there is a big difference between the kind of corruption you see in the United States and the kind you'd see in, say, Nigeria. Your hyperbole is ridiculous.

[RZZZA]

I dont hate America, I love America...

My point was that it is pointless to compare which countries have better or worse corruption in their government. What does that prove? There are still a lot of problems in Mexico but there are a lot of problems in America as well...what good does pointing fingers do? I mean its interesting to discuss and everything but I dont like the idea that people are going "Theres less corruption here so we're better!"...there is corruption in any government around the world, maybe we should be discussing human nature and why we are so greedy and selfish.

[1{H][NA]

just because the corruption is harder to see does not mean its not there. who knows how much is actually going on behind the scenes. Enron anyone? Carl Rove?

and no i dont hate america, i was born here and have lived a very happy life here. but dont just believe only in the things you can see.

and correct me if im wrong but i undersand that the japanese rightwingers are still a very powerfull group in japan. and considering that most japanese nowadays could could care less about politics, i imagine it wouldnt be very difficult for the rightwingers to seize power.

I understand they feel wronged for the genocides that took place on their soil but at some point you have to kinda move on already...I mean this happened over 50 years ago.

i still have many relatives in the US and china who fought and lived through the japanese occupation, trust me, its not an easy thing to forget.