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Thread: Bosnian Church & Bosnia Discussions (all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

  1. #161

    Default Re: TSARDOMS TOTAL WAR - BATTLE BETA RELEASE

    This simbol was one of the weapons of the Kotromanic family. The family weapon was he black lion and a striped background. But the banner of the kingdom, without doubt has been the fleur des lilles, 6 of them. Thhis banner appears not only on coins, but what is more important, also on all the official stamps with which the kings signed documents as a banner of the kingdom.

    For example this one of king Dabisa:



    We can see right of him the banner of Serbia and left of him the banner of Bosnia and holding this same banner in his hand when going to battle as a Bosnian king. A similar stamo the first Bosnian king Tvrtko I Kotromanic has:



    You can see again the Bosnian flag and the Serbian flag. This weapon which you used is never visible as a banner of whole of the kingdom like the fleur des lilles are.
    Last edited by Bosnian_King; January 28, 2017 at 09:23 AM.
    kada se bjehmo svadili, tada nas Stjepan Rajkovic umiri i da nam nas grad Bobovac, a neda ga dati Ugrom.

    "And when we were in a quarrel between each other; Stijepan Rajkovic calmed us down. And we entrusted our capital of Bobovac to him after which he defended it against the Hungarians (King Tvrtko I Kotromanic 1366.)"

  2. #162
    +Marius+'s Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: TSARDOMS TOTAL WAR - BATTLE BETA RELEASE

    Quote Originally Posted by Bosnian_King View Post
    But the banner of the kingdom, without doubt has been the fleur des lilles
    Then how come non-Kotromanic rulers do not use it?

    Wherever the family on the throne is not Kotromanic, the crown appears next to the family crest, not the lilies;

    http://i.imgur.com/x5L3wkX.jpg

    http://i.imgur.com/u7NdPFC.jpg

  3. #163

    Default Re: TSARDOMS TOTAL WAR - BATTLE BETA RELEASE

    Quote Originally Posted by +Marius+ View Post
    Then how come non-Kotromanic rulers do not use it?

    Wherever the family on the throne is not Kotromanic, the crown appears next to the family crest, not the lilies;

    http://i.imgur.com/x5L3wkX.jpg

    http://i.imgur.com/u7NdPFC.jpg
    Marius,

    There has never been a discussion about the banner of the state. This is why this banner has been chosen for the banner of the republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina in 1992. and put in front of the UN. The banner of the Kotromanic dynasty is much older; probably from before the 12. th century and represents the black lion on a striped background. Unfortunately the royal library was burned by the turks so we do not know exactly. But we know a book existed which described the history of the Kotromanic dynasty.

    In all the medieval Bosnian documents in the intitualation of the Bosnian kings (which is a sentence which comes as a first sentence in the document); we have a summation of all the lands the king is a ruler of. Those lands they called the Bosnian Lands and were for example, Usora, Soli, Hum, Donji Kraji. But one of those lands was referred to as the "kings land" and this was central Bosnia (Vares, Kraljeva Sutjeska, Fojnica, Bobovac). The Bosnian kings called this land as the "kings land" and here they put the crown as a simbol very often. For example at the grafe of Tomasevic this simbol can be found at his tombstone but at the same time under this tombstone the banner of the kingdom was placed which is still preserved in the Bosnian national museum. This crown is thus the symbol of not the kingdom but of only one of the many Bosnian lands of which the kings directly ruled and not via one of their hertogs.

    But all the lands together: The kings land, Hum, Donji Kraji,Usora, Soli etc. were represented by the fleur de lilles. This was thus the symbol of the state. Not of the Kotromanic family, not of the kings land but of all the Bosnian lands which formed the kingdom of Bosnia. And this is why all the official stamps of the kingdom have been provided with this banner incorporated in this stamp. In most of the timed we can see a picture of the king, holding a cross in his hand and the banner of the kingdom at one of his sides while sitting on the throne.

    The king appointed others to rule over for example Donji Kraji. And some of the Bosnian kings were not even powerfull enough to control the rulers their forefathers appointed. But as a minimum, all the Bosnian kings ruled over the kings land of central Bosnia which is may be onlu 20% of the Bosnian kingdom.

    In short: There is a distinction between what is referred to in documents as "the kings land" (Kraljeva Sutjeska, Visoko, Fojnica, Bobovac, Vares) and the Bosnian kingdom = The kings land+ Donji Kraji +Soli +Usora +Hum + Podrinje (+Dalmacija+Montenegro +Parts of Serbia).

    The symbol of whole the kingdom officially has from the beginning untill the last Bosnian king been the fleur des lilles.
    Last edited by Bosnian_King; January 28, 2017 at 11:32 AM.
    kada se bjehmo svadili, tada nas Stjepan Rajkovic umiri i da nam nas grad Bobovac, a neda ga dati Ugrom.

    "And when we were in a quarrel between each other; Stijepan Rajkovic calmed us down. And we entrusted our capital of Bobovac to him after which he defended it against the Hungarians (King Tvrtko I Kotromanic 1366.)"

  4. #164

    Default Re: TSARDOMS TOTAL WAR - BATTLE BETA RELEASE

    all of the "bosnian kings" were not strong enough to control their nobility,actualy they were wery weak ecept tvrtko,look what they left us!

    NOTHING! one serbian ruler like dusan has left more pictures,buildings,etc than all the "Bosnian kings" together.

  5. #165

    Default Re: TSARDOMS TOTAL WAR - BATTLE BETA RELEASE

    Quote Originally Posted by Bosnian_King View Post
    Marius,

    There has never been a discussion about the banner of the state. This is why this banner has been chosen for the banner of the republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina in 1992. and put in front of the UN. The banner of the Kotromanic dynasty is much older; probably from before the 12. th century and represents the black lion on a striped background. Unfortunately the royal library was burned by the turks so we do not know exactly. But we know a book existed which described the history of the Kotromanic dynasty.

    In all the medieval Bosnian documents in the intitualation of the Bosnian kings (which is a sentence which comes as a first sentence in the document); we have a summation of all the lands the king is a ruler of. Those lands they called the Bosnian Lands and were for example, Usora, Soli, Hum, Donji Kraji. But one of those lands was referred to as the "kings land" and this was central Bosnia (Vares, Kraljeva Sutjeska, Fojnica, Bobovac). The Bosnian kings called this land as the "kings land" and here they put the crown as a simbol very often. For example at the grafe of Tomasevic this simbol can be found at his tombstone but at the same time under this tombstone the banner of the kingdom was placed which is still preserved in the Bosnian national museum. This crown is thus the symbol of not the kingdom but of only one of the many Bosnian lands of which the kings directly ruled and not via one of their hertogs.

    But all the lands together: The kings land, Hum, Donji Kraji,Usora, Soli etc. were represented by the fleur de lilles. This was thus the symbol of the state. Not of the Kotromanic family, not of the kings land but of all the Bosnian lands which formed the kingdom of Bosnia. And this is why all the official stamps of the kingdom have been provided with this banner incorporated in this stamp. In most of the timed we can see a picture of the king, holding a cross in his hand and the banner of the kingdom at one of his sides while sitting on the throne.

    The king appointed others to rule over for example Donji Kraji. And some of the Bosnian kings were not even powerfull enough to control the rulers their forefathers appointed. But as a minimum, all the Bosnian kings ruled over the kings land of central Bosnia which is may be onlu 20% of the Bosnian kingdom.

    In short: There is a distinction between what is referred to in documents as "the kings land" (Kraljeva Sutjeska, Visoko, Fojnica, Bobovac, Vares) and the Bosnian kingdom = The kings land+ Donji Kraji +Soli +Usora +Hum + Podrinje (+Dalmacija+Montenegro +Parts of Serbia).

    The symbol of whole the kingdom officially has from the beginning untill the last Bosnian king been the fleur des lilles.
    Emm bosnian kings actualy ruled only bosnia,the banates Usora, Soli, Hum, Donji Kraji were ruled by nobility and no king ever ruled them it vas the other way around,both Hrvatinichs and the Kosaca family were stronger than the Kotromanics!
    Now what is the diference betven kingdom and kings lands?

    The serbian coat of arms and the lilies on the same coin can be explained like this:Lilies for the family and serbian coat as the coat of the state couse we all know bosnia never had an crown that vas recognized by the pope or the holly roman emperor that is the reason they crowned themself wit the serbian crown in the first place,bosnia alone vas merly a banate and Tvrtko vas a vassal to the ungarian king even when he crovned himself!
    Last edited by thekingsmen; January 28, 2017 at 03:26 PM.

  6. #166

    Default Re: TSARDOMS TOTAL WAR - BATTLE BETA RELEASE

    Quote Originally Posted by thekingsmen View Post
    Emm bosnian kings actualy ruled only bosnia,the banates Usora, Soli, Hum, Donji Kraji were ruled by nobility and no king ever ruled them it vas the other way around,both Hrvatinichs and the Kosaca family were stronger than the Kotromanics!
    Now what is the diference betven kingdom and kings lands?

    The serbian coat of arms and the lilies on the same coin can be explained like this:Lilies for the family and serbian coat as the coat of the state couse we all know bosnia never had an crown that vas recognized by the pope or the holly roman emperor that is the reason they crowned themself wit the serbian crown in the first place,bosnia alone vas merly a banate and Tvrtko vas a vassal to the ungarian king even when he crovned himself!
    Bosnian kings conquerred a part of Serbia and rled over it. About this even all the serbian historians agree. King Tvrtko I Kotromanic explciitly tells it in his letter to Dubrovnik of 1389. He tells how he became the king of not only Bosnia but also of a part of Serbia. However; he and all the kings after him call themeselves Bosnian kings and not Bosno-Serbo-Croatian kings. Even if they ruled later also over a part of Croatia.

    That the pope didnt recognize the Bosnian church and the Bosnian crown is not important. The Hungarians also did not recognize the Bosnian kingdom. The Hungarian kings even called themselves the rulers of Bosnia. The difference however lies in the fact that they never conquered Bosnia even after a lot of wars between the Hungarian armies and the Bosnian armies. Croatia the Hungarian kings did conquer and that is why Croatia has nevr been an independent kingdom in the late medieval times.

    So yes you are right; the pope didnt recognize it; but the Popes biggest agent (Hungarian king) never succeeded to conquer Bosnia. And especially during Tvrtko I Bosnia was a very powerfull kingdom.


    I wish you a good weekend.
    kada se bjehmo svadili, tada nas Stjepan Rajkovic umiri i da nam nas grad Bobovac, a neda ga dati Ugrom.

    "And when we were in a quarrel between each other; Stijepan Rajkovic calmed us down. And we entrusted our capital of Bobovac to him after which he defended it against the Hungarians (King Tvrtko I Kotromanic 1366.)"

  7. #167
    +Marius+'s Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: TSARDOMS TOTAL WAR - BATTLE BETA RELEASE

    Quote Originally Posted by Bosnian_King View Post
    Marius,

    There has never been a discussion about the banner of the state. This is why this banner has been chosen for the banner of the republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina in 1992. and put in front of the UN.
    I am not arguing that the lilies are incorrect, I am merely arguing that the crown CoA is historically correct as well.

    However, I just remembered that the mod's startdate is 1345, meaning that Bosnia is a banovina at the time, not a kingdom.

    You are correct, in this mod the Bosnian CoA should definitely be the Kotromanic lilies.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bosnian_King View Post
    The difference however lies in the fact that they never conquered Bosnia even after a lot of wars between the Hungarian armies and the Bosnian armies.
    That is not really the case, Hungary established rule over Bosnia a number of times, especially so during the rule of ban Prijezda, it is just that Bosnians kept rebelling(because, unlike Croatia, it had a heretical religion and was treated very harshly).

    Heck, the first recorded ban of Bosnia was a noble in their service.

  8. #168

    Default Re: TSARDOMS TOTAL WAR - BATTLE BETA RELEASE

    Not true,croatia vas not conqured it had a ban same as bosnia and actualy the feudal formation of dalmatian cities,dalmatian hiterland,herzegovina(hum) and central bosnia orbiting to one ruler that is the strongest factor south of hungary is a formation that has first been created by mladen subich(ban of croatia,lord of bosnia) later that formation vas ruled by bans from bosnia so ve call it kingdom bosnia and it vas de facto kingdom of bosnia while de jure Tvrtko vas crowned king of serbia(or serbs translation is not clera),bosnia,dlamatia,rascia....


    Dude croatian ban mladen decided to bring those anjojs from naples on the hungarian trone and noone agred with him,both hungarian and croatian nobels so he fought a war with the bishop of zagreb to change his mind then they together made the slavonian ban to change his mind(WAR) after that they went to hungary where they alsov made war and the anjoj king joined them where they crowned him king of hungary and croatia,se all of our bans could madethemself kings but they did not have any use of the sole title in fact for the croatian ban mladen it vas more useful to be de jure under the hungarian crown couse he had the right to influence the sucesion of the hungarian throne!

    Finaly one of mladens sucesors who vas wekend couldnt keep bonia so he made a local stuart ban of bosnia that is how kotromanics became bans of bosnia and as they got stronger they went by mladens foot steps creating a medieval land formation out of that same core that vas the core of the croatian kingdom: Dalmatia,Hum,Bosnia(central)

  9. #169

    Default Re: TSARDOMS TOTAL WAR - BATTLE BETA RELEASE

    Quote Originally Posted by +Marius+ View Post

    That is not really the case, Hungary established rule over Bosnia a number of times, especially so during the rule of ban Prijezda, it is just that Bosnians kept rebelling(because, unlike Croatia, it had a heretical religion and was treated very harshly).

    Heck, the first recorded ban of Bosnia was a noble in their service.
    Noone vas conqured in the full sense,hungarians merly crushed the nobility and made them svear ouats to the hungarian crown
    bosnia(regional term) found itself under the hungarian crown after the defeat of the croatian nobility by the hungarians and actualy it vas the hungarian ruler who made a Rama herzegdom for his prince to rule it while the king is alive and in one point of time that herzog vas replaced by a slavonian nobel( ban borich) and it is not fully clear but the same teritory herzogdom rama is refered to as banate bosnia since that hapend,now we dont have enough sources to know what exactly hapend but we know Rama is Bosnia and it vas created by the hungarian ruler with a simple decret!
    Last edited by thekingsmen; January 29, 2017 at 06:14 AM.

  10. #170

    Default Re: TSARDOMS TOTAL WAR - BATTLE BETA RELEASE

    Im not disagreing with anyone,those two guys think that the Lilies are a beter representation of the banate and i always found it strange that the banate of bosnia has a crown,now im talking what those CoA-s could mean but i dont know it for real and frenkly i find CoA s irelevant especialy when they are bot one and the same,anjou family had Lilies and later they changed it with a crown wich has Lilies on the top and the banate did the same

  11. #171

    Default Re: TSARDOMS TOTAL WAR - BATTLE BETA RELEASE

    Quote Originally Posted by +Marius+ View Post
    I am not arguing that the lilies are incorrect, I am merely arguing that the crown CoA is historically correct as well.

    However, I just remembered that the mod's startdate is 1345, meaning that Bosnia is a banovina at the time, not a kingdom.

    You are correct, in this mod the Bosnian CoA should definitely be the Kotromanic lilies.
    It is nice that we agree. I think the Bosnian crown (With the lillies) should also be incorporated in the game. This symbol was a symbol of the "kings land". In the Bosnian documents this central part of the Bosnian kingdom was called "kraljeva zemlja"= "kings land"; this was the land from which the kingdom was actually built first as a small knezevina, then as a semi independent banate in the time of for Example Kulin ban and Ban Ninoslav and then as an independent Banate in the time of Stijepan Kotromanic II and finally as a powerfull kingdom in the time of Tvrtko I Kotromanic.

    This "kings land" or the very origin of all the Bosnian states which would come has always been under the direct rule of the Kotromanic dynasty without any interferring Herogs, Dukes etc. and this land was later always represented by the crown COA. This concerns the region which stretches from todays Sarajevo to Zenica in a 30 km wide strp. This kings land had for example Bobovac as the capital of the kingdom, Visoko as the university city, Hodidjed as a small fortress above the valey of todays Sarajevo and smaller mining places like Vares. It would be historically correct if the kings army; the army which is directly recruited in the kings land, would have the banner with the crown.

    But whole of the kingdom = The kings land +Usora + Soli + Hum + Parts of todays Montenegro,Croatia or Serbia was without doubt always represented by the fleur de lilles. Before Bosnia became a kingdom it is very likely that the banner was just the black Kotromanic lion. But i think it would be a good compromise to give it the banner from the kingdom already from the beginning of the game because the biggest part of the game timefrime this would be the actual banner.
    Last edited by Bosnian_King; January 29, 2017 at 01:11 PM.
    kada se bjehmo svadili, tada nas Stjepan Rajkovic umiri i da nam nas grad Bobovac, a neda ga dati Ugrom.

    "And when we were in a quarrel between each other; Stijepan Rajkovic calmed us down. And we entrusted our capital of Bobovac to him after which he defended it against the Hungarians (King Tvrtko I Kotromanic 1366.)"

  12. #172

    Default Re: Bosnian Church & Bosnia Discussions (all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    so the dev team chose the crown but it does not mater cuz its cool

  13. #173

    Default Re: Bosnian Church & Bosnia Discussions (all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    Quote Originally Posted by thekingsmen View Post
    so the dev team chose the crown but it does not mater cuz its cool
    This crown has never been the simbol of the Bosnian state. It has totally been made up. So concerning to Bosnia, if this crown will eventually be applied as the Bosnian COA, it would mean that it is not historically correct. It would give the game zero historical relevance as one of the factions has a made up COA.

    Last edited by Bosnian_King; February 04, 2017 at 07:41 AM.
    kada se bjehmo svadili, tada nas Stjepan Rajkovic umiri i da nam nas grad Bobovac, a neda ga dati Ugrom.

    "And when we were in a quarrel between each other; Stijepan Rajkovic calmed us down. And we entrusted our capital of Bobovac to him after which he defended it against the Hungarians (King Tvrtko I Kotromanic 1366.)"

  14. #174
    jurcek1987's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Bosnian Church & Bosnia Discussions (all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    One inaccuracy would not invalidate the whole game

  15. #175

    Default Re: Bosnian Church & Bosnia Discussions (all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    Why would it be innaccurate when it is very clear what has been the COA of the Bosnian Kingdom?
    kada se bjehmo svadili, tada nas Stjepan Rajkovic umiri i da nam nas grad Bobovac, a neda ga dati Ugrom.

    "And when we were in a quarrel between each other; Stijepan Rajkovic calmed us down. And we entrusted our capital of Bobovac to him after which he defended it against the Hungarians (King Tvrtko I Kotromanic 1366.)"

  16. #176
    Miszel's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Bosnian Church & Bosnia Discussions (all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    Calm down with that historical relevance accusations, Bosnia isnt a centre of the world, not yet at least.
    Such attitude gives me desire to leave it as a crown or replace by space alien faction(which built bosnian pyramides) just to make y'all butthurt.

  17. #177

    Default Re: Bosnian Church & Bosnia Discussions (all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    Ans are you part of the team Miszel?
    kada se bjehmo svadili, tada nas Stjepan Rajkovic umiri i da nam nas grad Bobovac, a neda ga dati Ugrom.

    "And when we were in a quarrel between each other; Stijepan Rajkovic calmed us down. And we entrusted our capital of Bobovac to him after which he defended it against the Hungarians (King Tvrtko I Kotromanic 1366.)"

  18. #178
    Miszel's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Bosnian Church & Bosnia Discussions (all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    Yup. Am talking about myself though, my view doesnt represent that of whole team. Fortunately, because otherwise you would be flying bosnian flying saucers in battle beta.

  19. #179

    Default Re: Bosnian Church & Bosnia Discussions (all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    Oke. Well you can leave it a crown. I am only saying that it is a made up COA. But obviously this is a political issue. I see all Bosians have already retreated from all the topics. I now we Bosniaks are the centre of Bosnia and thats what is important. And I know that Croats as a minority are butthurt. We dont let them even have a tv channel nowadays.

    Have a nice live
    kada se bjehmo svadili, tada nas Stjepan Rajkovic umiri i da nam nas grad Bobovac, a neda ga dati Ugrom.

    "And when we were in a quarrel between each other; Stijepan Rajkovic calmed us down. And we entrusted our capital of Bobovac to him after which he defended it against the Hungarians (King Tvrtko I Kotromanic 1366.)"

  20. #180
    Miszel's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Bosnian Church & Bosnia Discussions (all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    We will most likely change it to lillies anyway because there is a chance that one new faction will appear and it needs coats of arms etc. Dont worry about that, we try to get as historical as its possible.
    But for now we have different objectives and its not really on the top of our priorities.
    I'm just personally tired by balkanites on out forums arguing about everything.

    Be patient, be calm and we will deliver.

    Cheers and sorry for a harsh tone.

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