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Thread: Bosnian Church & Bosnia Discussions (all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

  1. #101

    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska (matko says: all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    Quote Originally Posted by dabela View Post
    A) There are no ratelsnakes in Bosnia or Balkan...
    B) Tvrtko was crowned in orhodox monastery Mileseva...

    Now, I've got a question for all of you: It is obvious that there were, and still are orthodox Serbs living in Bosnia... Then there must have been orthodox church in Bosnia too... The same thing i can say about catholic church, so what are you going to do about it? Are you going to make those churches and monasteries on the map, or what?
    You can give Bosnia orthodox churches to satisfy also the serbs players for Bosnia because it is a little bit "sensitive" to not include them. If you want to be historical correct then in Bosnia (so without hum) there should not be any orthodox churches; because about this fact the most important "Serbian medieval historians agree". For examples just some quoutes from those serbian historians. And do not understand me wrong: I really do not care and IT IS TOTALLY NOT IMPORTANT FOR ME AS A BOSNIAN. If those guys want to; then they can also build a budhistic temple at Bobovac. Now as I said:

    Vladimir Corovic:

    There is no proofe that in Bosnia existed a orthodox church before the arrival of the Turks. They only remainings of the orthodox church were found in Hum and it is most likely that this are the only one at the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina
    p.s.; Vladimir Corovic is known as the "national serb historian" or the most important one.

    Then Dinic:
    Ne treba gubiti iz vida, da u pravoj Bosni, Hum i dijelovi Rasa se izuzimaju.Misli se na Prijepolje, Milesevu nije bilo u Tvrtkovog doba pravoslavnih.Za nas je ovo pitanje definitivno reseno.
    Translation:

    We should not lose out of mind that in real Bosnia Hum and parts of Rasa (Prijepolje and Miliseva are meant with this) are excluded; there were no orthodox christians in the time of Tvrtko. This question is tottaly answered for us as historians.
    All the other serb historians are concluding the same. This is historical correct. In hum there were orthodox christians and a monestry. In Bosnia there were not. (Bosnia is the territory from the period of let's say Ban Kulin, Ninoslav etc. But I understand that if you want to build churches of the orthodox faith in Bosnia to satisfy also our bosnian serb gamers; then it's ok with me. I am here only for the history and I hope that I helped you a little bit.
    Last edited by Bosnian_King; June 30, 2010 at 04:50 AM.
    kada se bjehmo svadili, tada nas Stjepan Rajkovic umiri i da nam nas grad Bobovac, a neda ga dati Ugrom.

    "And when we were in a quarrel between each other; Stijepan Rajkovic calmed us down. And we entrusted our capital of Bobovac to him after which he defended it against the Hungarians (King Tvrtko I Kotromanic 1366.)"

  2. #102

    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska (matko says: all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    Quote Originally Posted by phoenix[illusion] View Post
    of course. bosnia as only krstjan church is nonsense, there were also catholic and orthodox churches. they will be included. duce has some plans for religions
    Yes it is nonsense. But also Bogomils should be taken into consideration and other "heretics" which were protected by the Bosnian church. You will make the bosnian church the only state church right? Because we know that it was the only state church that's 100% for sure.
    kada se bjehmo svadili, tada nas Stjepan Rajkovic umiri i da nam nas grad Bobovac, a neda ga dati Ugrom.

    "And when we were in a quarrel between each other; Stijepan Rajkovic calmed us down. And we entrusted our capital of Bobovac to him after which he defended it against the Hungarians (King Tvrtko I Kotromanic 1366.)"

  3. #103
    phoenix[illusion]'s Avatar Palman Bracht
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    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska (matko says: all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bosnian_King View Post
    You can give Bosnia orthodox churches to satisfy also the serbs players for Bosnia because it is a little bit "sensitive" to not include them. If you want to be historical correct then in Bosnia (so without hum) there should not be any orthodox churches; because about this fact the most important "Serbian medieval historians agree". For examples just some quoutes from those serbian historians. And do not understand me wrong: I really do not care and IT IS TOOTALLY NOT IMPORTANT FOR ME AS A BOSNIA. If those guys want to; then they can also build a budhistic temple at Bobovac
    wrong. hum was not only with serbian churches, there were more from eastern side of border. also many other, as i've said, destoryed. it is unknow how much orthodox people in bosnia, but saying it was not important is wrong. bosnian church was maybe main religion of nobles and central bosnia, but it was almos equal to catholic or orthodox people in bosnia. so, it's not for some satisfaction, but for the real history facts.
    long time no see, but still twc drug kickin'
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  4. #104
    phoenix[illusion]'s Avatar Palman Bracht
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    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska (matko says: all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bosnian_King View Post
    Yes it is nonsense. But also Bogomils should be taken into consideration and other "heretics" which were protected by the Bosnian church. You will make the bosnian church the only state church right? Because we know that it was the only state church that's 100% for sure.
    well, yes, krstjani as main religion, but as i've said, duce has some plans in making some religion traits etc. i really don't know what he thinks, but i'm sure he'll make all alright
    long time no see, but still twc drug kickin'
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  5. #105

    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska (matko says: all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    Quote Originally Posted by phoenix[illusion] View Post
    wrong. hum was not only with serbian churches, there were more from eastern side of border. also many other, as i've said, destoryed. it is unknow how much orthodox people in bosnia, but saying it was not important is wrong. bosnian church was maybe main religion of nobles and central bosnia, but it was almos equal to catholic or orthodox people in bosnia. so, it's not for some satisfaction, but for the real history facts.
    No my friend. It is not for the historical accuracy but for the satisfaction. Because if you are going to be historical correct then you shoulkd not read histoy at political websites where they show remainings of orthodox churches from Bosnia and saying that those churches "were already there" but you should read history from books.

    Look what Vladimir Corovic and Dinic said. They are, especially Corovic, very important and respected historians. All the museums in Serbia are made and decorated by his knowledge. He wrote the "national history of the serbs". Now I really have no time or strebgth to discuss about this. I am not a guy of 17 anymore who wants to proove something on a forum. As I said I do not care. I only say to you:"This is what the historians say and what is historically recognised." If yoy want to do it different; no problem. We are as good friends as before and no hard feelings really.
    kada se bjehmo svadili, tada nas Stjepan Rajkovic umiri i da nam nas grad Bobovac, a neda ga dati Ugrom.

    "And when we were in a quarrel between each other; Stijepan Rajkovic calmed us down. And we entrusted our capital of Bobovac to him after which he defended it against the Hungarians (King Tvrtko I Kotromanic 1366.)"

  6. #106

    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska (matko says: all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    Well, how can you explain that there was around 1 800 000 Serbs on the teritory of Bosnia before the war? They lived there from the time they came to Balkan and they kept their religion (didnt converted) so they had to have their own church, even in middle ages... It is not to satisfy someone, it is historicaly correct... Also, there should be Catholic church too since croats lived in Bosnia (and still live) too...

  7. #107

    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska (matko says: all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    Quote Originally Posted by dabela View Post
    Well, how can you explain that there was around 1 800 000 Serbs on the teritory of Bosnia before the war? They lived there from the time they came to Balkan and they kept their religion (didnt converted) so they had to have their own church, even in middle ages... It is not to satisfy someone, it is historicaly correct... Also, there should be Catholic church too since croats lived in Bosnia (and still live) too...
    No it is not correct. Those serbs came to Bosnia after the Kosovo battle. We have got a source from the year 1530. and it's the oldest source which mentions explicitely the nations which lived in Bosnia and their relligion. It was written by Kuripesic; a Slovenian historian under the Austrian flag. He wrote in that year a book about his travelling through Bosnia and Serbia and Bulgaria. For Bosnia he says:

    A
    nd in the already mentioned kingdom of Bosnia we found three nations and three religions. The first are the oldsittiing bosnians. They are heirs of the Bosnian kingdom and they are of the roman christian faith. The turks allowed them to stay in their country and to stay in their religion.

    The second people are the serbs. The bosnians call them Vlachs and we cal them Cicims or Matrolosims. They are of the fait of Holy Paulus and they came from Smederva and Greek Belgrade. We consider them as good christians. The thirth nation are the Turks who are mostly soldiers or rulers. They rule with big tiranee over the alreade mentioned peoples; the christian nations.
    This is the oldest source from Bosnia which clearly tells us more about the nations which lived in Bosnia. But as I said it is ok if also orthodox churches would be built in Bosnia only it is not ok with me to say that it is "for the accuracy" because it is not. And my intention was not to prrove that the bosnian christians were the best. I do not care about it. Nor do i feel attracted to the Bosnian church. My intention was really to help you.
    Last edited by Bosnian_King; June 30, 2010 at 05:30 AM.
    kada se bjehmo svadili, tada nas Stjepan Rajkovic umiri i da nam nas grad Bobovac, a neda ga dati Ugrom.

    "And when we were in a quarrel between each other; Stijepan Rajkovic calmed us down. And we entrusted our capital of Bobovac to him after which he defended it against the Hungarians (King Tvrtko I Kotromanic 1366.)"

  8. #108

    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska (matko says: all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    I don't agree with this...

  9. #109
    Milos98's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska (matko says: all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    Quote Originally Posted by Vladimir Čorović - Bosna i Hercegovina
    Od 1284 godine dobija Mačvu s Beogradom, Srem i Soli sa Usorom ( današnji tuzlanski okrug ) srpski kralj Dragutin kao zet mađarskog kralja i kao njegov vazal. U Bosni između Dragutina i domaće dinastije nema sukoba; naprotiv, Stepan I Kotroman, sin Prijezdin, uzima za ženu Dragutinovu kćer Jelisavetu. Na osnovu te ženidbe tračiće njegovi potomci posle nepunih sto godina srpsku kraljevsku krunu. Po pričanju arhiepiskopa Danila, Dragutin je u Bosni pomogao širenje pravoslavlja (njemu se pripisuje podizanje manastira Rače; predanje o tom, da je on podigao Papraću i Lomnicu, nije sigurno) i sa uspehom je prevodio mnoge od jeretika u "veru hrišćansku".
    Since the year 1284 gets Macva with Belgrade, Srem, and Soli with Usora (now Tuzla district) Serbian king Dragutin's son in law of the Hungarian king as his vassal. There was no conflict between Dragutin and local dynasty, on the contrary, Kotroman Stepan I, son of Prijezdina married Dragutin's daughter. On the basis of his marriage, his descendants claim the Serbian royal throne, less than a hundred years after. By telling of Archbishop Danilo, Dragutin helped the spreading of Orthodoxy ( he is attributed for raising monastery Raca, but his connections with Lomnica and Papraće are not sure ) and has successfully converted many of the heretics to the "Christian faith" (Orthodox christianity)


    Saint Archbishop Daniel the II ( Sveti Danilo II - 1270-1337 ) wrote a book "Biographies of Serbian Kings and Archbishops" ( Životi Srpskih kraljeva i episkopa ). He confirmed connection between king Dragutin and Lomnica monastery.
    My point is that its almost impossible that ruler like king Dragutin wouldnt build any church nor monastery on his land. The problem is that he was mainly known as king of Srem and his activity in his bosnian fief wasn't as intensive as it was in other parts of his land.
    If we analyze Čorovićs books we can see that even he wasn't sure about religion of Bosnia, because its almost impossible to tell religious composition of Bosina in that time, because there were different lords ruling that land in different times. We cant say that there werent any Orthodox churches or monasteries, because there were Serbian lords present, and it would be historically incorect to ignore that fact.
    But anyway, you shouldnt complicate a lot with this game, keep it simple and make bosnian religion main religion in bosnia without any orthodox or catholic churches. Its just a game, and players are ment to conquer territories, not to test historical correctness of some territory, which most players dont give a damn for.
    Regards, Milos98

  10. #110
    NikeBG's Avatar Sampsis
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    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska (matko says: all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bosnian_King View Post
    You will make the bosnian church the only state church right? Because we know that it was the only state church that's 100% for sure.
    Uh, what?

  11. #111

    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska (matko says: all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    Quote Originally Posted by NikeBG View Post
    Uh, what?
    That's the conclusion of the most balkan medieval historians. It is not mine conclusion. So please don't shoot the messenger. I am just the messenger.

    Yes it was a state church. For instance you are a Bulgarian. And I am not sure but let's say that in medieval times most of the Bulgarians were orthodox christians. Those Bulgarians who lived 100 kilometers from the capital and those who lived in the capital. In the case of Bosnia this was not the situation!

    The ordinary medieval bosnian was not always a "bosnian christian". The Bosnian church was at the first place a church of the nobles. That's very important to know. So it was the church of all those nobles who were living in the "Bosnian lands": Bosnia, Soli, Podrinje Usora etc. But an ordinary peasant from let's say Trebinje; he was may be an orthodox christian. And a peasant from Usora; he was probably a catholic.

    So the bosnian church was the insititution which held bosnia as a state together. It was not the "faith of all bosnians". No! It was the faith of the nobility and the people who were living in central Bosnia; Soli and parts of Podrinje.

    That's why most historians agree about it when they say:"The bosnian church was actually a state church." It was more an institution than a relligion. It is very important to know this. And it is very interesting too.

    Because as I said Bosnia was for many centuries in war with Hungaria. And the bosnian church was nothing less than an instrument of the Bosnians to resist the pressure. Every important noble; every djeneral; they all had to convert themselves to the "bosnian faith". For example we know that the Croat Hrvoje Vukicic Hrvatinic; who joined the Bosnian nobility after the bosnian expansion at Hungario-Croatian territory; he converted towards the faith of the bosnian church. And later when he wanted to become duke of Split he wrote to the Hungarian crown:"I left the untrue teachings of the heretic Bosnian church and I became catholic again." Or that letter from the bosnian king Tvrtko which testifies about a ceremony in which an important djeneral of Bosnia was CONVERTED towards the faith of the Bosnian chucrh in presssence of the king, the Djeds, the Strojniks and many nobles.

    So that was what the bosnian church was:
    1) A factor of cohesion of the bosnian state/crown/banate.
    2) The relligion of the peasants who were living in central bosnian or how it was called "the land of the king" (kraljeva zemlja).

    And it is more interesting when we see that all those kings of Bosnia supported this church. They gave to this church a central place in the state. They called this church the "roots of Bosnia" etc. But they themelves were mostly catholics! Because they did not want to make it the Hungarians easy.
    kada se bjehmo svadili, tada nas Stjepan Rajkovic umiri i da nam nas grad Bobovac, a neda ga dati Ugrom.

    "And when we were in a quarrel between each other; Stijepan Rajkovic calmed us down. And we entrusted our capital of Bobovac to him after which he defended it against the Hungarians (King Tvrtko I Kotromanic 1366.)"

  12. #112
    NikeBG's Avatar Sampsis
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    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska (matko says: all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bosnian_King View Post
    Yes it was a state church.
    I'm not saying the Bosnian church wasn't a national church. I'm saying that it most definitely was not the only national church, as you claimed, considering there was also a Bulgarian Orthodox Church and, since recently in the mod's time, a Serbian Orthodox Church, with their own Patriarchs, independence etc, following and forming the politics of their respective states. And just like the Bosnian djed was present at council meetings, the Bulgarian Patriarch was also a member of the Great Bolyar's Council f.e.

  13. #113
    phoenix[illusion]'s Avatar Palman Bracht
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    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska (matko says: all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    we should stop with argue who came first. yes many serbs came to bosnia, but i doubt that they would go for living in bosnia, cause bosnia fell under ottomans almost same time as serbia. they would not search for refuge in already ottoman land. those serbs who came to bosnia were actually krajisnici, servin hungarians, those who held border, they were settled in krajina, todays northen bosnia and part of croatia. but the other serbs like in herzegovina lived there before, so as in han pijesak, pale, near todays border with serbia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bosnian_King View Post
    This is the oldest source from Bosnia which clearly tells us more about the nations which lived in Bosnia
    well, if you want the oldest here you are:
    "The first reference of Bosnia in the historical record is in the Byzantine Emperor Constantine Porphyrogenitus (913-959) "On the governance of the Empire" in which on the 32nd chapter called "The Serbs and the lands in which they live," according to the Bosnia area located within the so-called "baptized Serbia" and Serbia in the Balkan Peninsula, which is inhabited by Serbs."
    so, i just want to end this, not to provoke, but speaking of some clues, which could only provide more argue. so let's end up this with bosnia, where krstijani, catholics and orthodox lived with each other (which was, in fact true). i could go further as bosnians as serbs, and i could also go as non serbs, but stand-alone people, cause there are losts of facts from both side, which leads us to nothing but who's right or wrong.
    in the end, migrations happen, from both sides, from the early ages. let's not argue which is whos
    long time no see, but still twc drug kickin'
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  14. #114

    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska (matko says: all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    Quote Originally Posted by NikeBG View Post
    I'm not saying the Bosnian church wasn't a national church. I'm saying that it most definitely was not the only national church, as you claimed, considering there was also a Bulgarian Orthodox Church and, since recently in the mod's time, a Serbian Orthodox Church, with their own Patriarchs, independence etc, following and forming the politics of their respective states. And just like the Bosnian djed was present at council meetings, the Bulgarian Patriarch was also a member of the Great Bolyar's Council f.e.
    I meant that the bosnian church was the only state church in bosnia. Not the only state church amongs all faction churches in the game.
    kada se bjehmo svadili, tada nas Stjepan Rajkovic umiri i da nam nas grad Bobovac, a neda ga dati Ugrom.

    "And when we were in a quarrel between each other; Stijepan Rajkovic calmed us down. And we entrusted our capital of Bobovac to him after which he defended it against the Hungarians (King Tvrtko I Kotromanic 1366.)"

  15. #115

    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska (matko says: all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    Quote Originally Posted by phoenix[illusion] View Post
    we should stop with argue who came first. yes many serbs came to bosnia, but i doubt that they would go for living in bosnia, cause bosnia fell under ottomans almost same time as serbia. they would not search for refuge in already ottoman land. those serbs who came to bosnia were actually krajisnici, servin hungarians, those who held border, they were settled in krajina, todays northen bosnia and part of croatia. but the other serbs like in herzegovina lived there before, so as in han pijesak, pale, near todays border with serbia.
    Yes thats true. There were serbs in herzegovina before.

    Only it is not true that bosnia felt short after serbia. Serbia felt in 1393 I think. Bosnia in 1463. And the last part of Bosnia in 1530. So about 70 years past after the otomans decided to invade Bosnia from the territory of serbia. But let's stat on topic...
    kada se bjehmo svadili, tada nas Stjepan Rajkovic umiri i da nam nas grad Bobovac, a neda ga dati Ugrom.

    "And when we were in a quarrel between each other; Stijepan Rajkovic calmed us down. And we entrusted our capital of Bobovac to him after which he defended it against the Hungarians (King Tvrtko I Kotromanic 1366.)"

  16. #116

    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska (matko says: all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    serbia - 1459.

    TTW GRANDMASTER

  17. #117
    phoenix[illusion]'s Avatar Palman Bracht
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    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska (matko says: all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bosnian_King View Post
    Yes thats true. There were serbs in herzegovina before.

    Only it is not true that bosnia felt short after serbia. Serbia felt in 1393 I think. Bosnia in 1463. And the last part of Bosnia in 1530. So about 70 years past after the otomans decided to invade Bosnia from the territory of serbia. But let's stat on topic...
    and i just wanted to say, no matter what were bosnians, stand alone people, corats or serbs, they were krstjans by religion, which i can't understand why some people find it hard. it doesn't have to do with any today's religion, so after fall of krstjan religion, people who were part of it took over religion which suited them best, weitherit be muslim, catholic or orthodox
    no, that's wrong. it was conquered by ottomans in 1459 by ottomans. the last state of serbians was despotate of serbia, which depent on hungarians and ottomans.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_Despotate

    it is quite false from even serbian historian to consider fall of serbia after battle of kosovo, cause it lasted for another 70 years
    long time no see, but still twc drug kickin'
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  18. #118

    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska (matko says: all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    Quote Originally Posted by il_duce_! View Post
    serbia - 1459.
    Yes but how many % of Serbia was under Otoman rule in 1400? I think that after the battle of Kosovo the biggest part of Serbia became otoman. Correct me if I am wrong. And After the battle of Kosovo there past 60 years before the otomans began to attack Bosnia for the first time!

    You must also remember that t he bosnian king Tvrtko II fought first togther with the Otomans against the Hungarians. Because he hoped that the Otomans would never invade bosnia if he payed them.

    So it would be really historical incorrect to say that Serbia did not fall after the battle of Kosovo -1393. Even if some parts of serbia were free. At the same way it would be strange to say that Bosnia did not fell after the killing of our king; because a new bosnian kingdom was recognised by Hungarians and Otomans and this kingdom lasted till 1530. But no serious historian woud say that Bosnia felt in 1530. No! Bosnia felt after the battle of Bobovac and Serbia after the batlle of Kosovo. Between those two batlles 70 years past.
    kada se bjehmo svadili, tada nas Stjepan Rajkovic umiri i da nam nas grad Bobovac, a neda ga dati Ugrom.

    "And when we were in a quarrel between each other; Stijepan Rajkovic calmed us down. And we entrusted our capital of Bobovac to him after which he defended it against the Hungarians (King Tvrtko I Kotromanic 1366.)"

  19. #119

    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska (matko says: all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    Battle of Kosovo was in 1389. not 1393. and say what you want, but Serbia fell under ottoman rule in 1459.

  20. #120
    phoenix[illusion]'s Avatar Palman Bracht
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    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska (matko says: all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bosnian_King View Post
    Yes but how many % of Serbia was under Otoman rule in 1400? I think that after the battle of Kosovo the biggest part of Serbia became otoman. Correct me if I am wrong. And After the battle of Kosovo there past 60 years before the otomans began to attack Bosnia for the first time!

    You must also remember that t he bosnian king Tvrtko II fought first togther with the Otomans against the Hungarians. Because he hoped that the Otomans would never invade bosnia if he payed them.

    So it would be really historical incorrect to say that Serbia did not fall after the battle of Kosovo -1393. Even if some parts of serbia were free. At the same way it would be strange to say that Bosnia did not fell after the killing of our king; because a new bosnian kingdom was recognised by Hungarians and Otomans and this kingdom lasted till 1530. But no serious historian woud say that Bosnia felt in 1530. No! Bosnia felt after the battle of Bobovac and Serbia after the batlle of Kosovo. Between those two batlles 70 years past.
    stefan lazarevic reclaim a lot of serbian land. well, he was vasal of ottoman empire, later djuradj brankovic was of hungarian, but sometimes independent. they gone from one side to the other, depending of situation, but sometimes they were not in vasal, but independet. here's the map:
    http://0.tqn.com/d/historymedren/1/0/8/9/eurse1444b.gif
    in the end it was conquered by ottomans
    long time no see, but still twc drug kickin'
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