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Thread: Bosnian Church & Bosnia Discussions (all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

  1. #81
    phoenix[illusion]'s Avatar Palman Bracht
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    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska (matko says: all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    Quote Originally Posted by il_duce_! View Post
    Mine too. Lets use that one, then.
    hahaha, that was also mine favorite

    ok here's the facts from Dragoljub Dragojlovic's book (that cyrilic book):

    "od crkvenih gradjevina otkrivenih u bosni s kraja XII veka poticu dve nadgrobne crkve, jedna bana Kulina kod Visokog, a druga sudije Gradise kod Zenice, od koje je sacuvani samo natpisi. Iz prve polovine XIII veka poticu ostali dveju crkava, ciji su temelji otkriveni u Milama, kod Visokog i u Lisicicima kod Konjica, koje su, kao predhodne dve, bile nadgrobne crkve bosanskih feudalaca. Da u bosni u to vreme nisu podizane crkve namenjene bogosluzenim potrebama indirektno potvrdjuje, s jedne strane, obaveza bosanskih krstjana, preuzeta na Bilinom polju, da ce u svojim mestima imati "bogomolje"..."

    "Bosanski su se krstjani kao i monasi pustinjaci molili pod otvorenim nebom ili u svojim hizama. Pisac Rasprave je govorio da se oni klanjaju "nebeskom ocu" "pod otvorenim nebom" "u sumama i gorama, kao divlje zveri"

    tako da pisac smatra da nisu imali crkve, ali smo pravili nadgrobne crkve feudalcima. takodje spominje da je netacna tvrdnja povezivanje krstjana sa katarima i patarenima, jer su patareini i katari prezirali i krst i ikone, dok kod krstjana nije bilo tako (iako vecinu istoricara misli da su bili ko katari)
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  2. #82
    phoenix[illusion]'s Avatar Palman Bracht
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    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska (matko says: all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    also this



    so about the legend on this map
    1.tragovi krstjana u turskim defterima
    2.tragovi krstjana u srednjovekovnim spomenicima
    3.katolicke crkve i manastiri
    4.pravoslavne crkve i manastiri
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  3. #83
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    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska (matko says: all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bosnian_King View Post
    Translation:
    DJED CRKVE BOSANSKE = Grandfather of Bosnian Church
    VELIKI GOST = Big Guest
    VELIKI STARAC = Big Ancient
    GOSTI - APOSTOLI = Guests - Apostles
    KRSTJANI I KRSTJANICE = Male & Female Christians
    POSTNICI I OCENASCI = Fasteners & Our fathers
    VJERNICI = Believers
    TUMAC = Legend
    POSTANAK = Promotion
    VLAST = Authorities
    REDJENICI = Ordainees
    Just to note that "veliki gost" should more accurately be translated to "great guest" and "veliki starac" to "great elder" ("big ancient" sounds just plain weird).
    Also, I wouldn't call the "grandfather of the Bosnian church" to be "Bogomilorum papa", as in the ranking-picture in the first post, considering the Heretic Popes have been known to reside also in Constantinople, Bulgaria and even in the West.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bosnian_King View Post
    Bogomils were against material things and they teached people that everybody was bad from inside.
    Not exactly. Actually, on the contrary - they preached that we're a creation of the Devil from *outside* (i.e. the flesh, the body) and that the only two things which God created in this world (and are thus good) are the light of the Sun and the human soul (i.e. the *inside* of humans is good, but dressed in bad).

  4. #84
    Matthæus's Avatar Knez Bribirski
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    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska (matko says: all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    Quote Originally Posted by phoenix[illusion] View Post
    also this



    so about the legend on this map
    1.tragovi krstjana u turskim defterima
    2.tragovi krstjana u srednjovekovnim spomenicima
    3.katolicke crkve i manastiri
    4.pravoslavne crkve i manastiri
    and this tells a lot about Jajce. not many "Krstjani" there.

    now 2 biggest medieval churches in modern Bosnia are in Bihac and Jajce.
    Bihac wasnt part Bosnian and Jajce was in dominant catholic surrounding at the very western edge of Krstjani sphere of influence.

    in the central Bosnia where Krstjani were numerous there were no big churches. how to explain this.
    well first there wasnt any significant cities in Bosnia at all. Jajce (and Bobovac to some extent) is something of a exception. there were some castles which had housings around them but those were not really urban settlements.
    second explanation is that Bosnian church was not interested in building big churches. as i understood money was not a problem. Bosnian church had estates, silver and gold. and with their good connections to local nobility they were open to donations.

  5. #85
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    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska (matko says: all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    Quote Originally Posted by NikeBG View Post
    Just to note that "veliki gost" should more accurately be translated to "great guest" and "veliki starac" to "great elder" ("big ancient" sounds just plain weird).
    Also, I wouldn't call the "grandfather of the Bosnian church" to be "Bogomilorum papa", as in the ranking-picture in the first post, considering the Heretic Popes have been known to reside also in Constantinople, Bulgaria and even in the West.
    i agree with you. big is used for size. like aleksandar veliki, it is translated as alexander the great. so actually it's great guest, great elder. and ancient is used for objects, like ancient cities, ancient sword. elder means older man, starac. well, i wouldn't change grandfather thing, cause he was called djed (deda, dida). there are slightly difference between bosnain church and bogomils
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  6. #86
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    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska (matko says: all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    in the central Bosnia where Krstjani were numerous there were no big churches. how to explain this.
    well first there wasnt any significant cities in Bosnia at all. Jajce (and Bobovac to some extent) is something of a exception. there were some castles which had housings around them but those were not really urban settlements.
    second explanation is that Bosnian church was not interested in building big churches. as i understood money was not a problem. Bosnian church had estates, silver and gold. and with their good connections to local nobility they were open to donations.
    read my post which says:
    "od crkvenih gradjevina otkrivenih u bosni s kraja XII veka poticu dve nadgrobne crkve, jedna bana Kulina kod Visokog, a druga sudije Gradise kod Zenice, od koje je sacuvani samo natpisi. Iz prve polovine XIII veka poticu ostali dveju crkava, ciji su temelji otkriveni u Milama, kod Visokog i u Lisicicima kod Konjica, koje su, kao predhodne dve, bile nadgrobne crkve bosanskih feudalaca. Da u bosni u to vreme nisu podizane crkve namenjene bogosluzenim potrebama indirektno potvrdjuje, s jedne strane, obaveza bosanskih krstjana, preuzeta na Bilinom polju, da ce u svojim mestima imati "bogomolje"..."

    "Bosanski su se krstjani kao i monasi pustinjaci molili pod otvorenim nebom ili u svojim hizama. Pisac Rasprave je govorio da se oni klanjaju "nebeskom ocu" "pod otvorenim nebom" "u sumama i gorama, kao divlje zveri"

    so they had no churches for praying, but they have tombstone churches (dunno how to translate) for their dead nobles. it can be put in mod as building
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  7. #87
    Matthæus's Avatar Knez Bribirski
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    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska (matko says: all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    we should have chapels (probably 2 sizes) and some monastery as religious buildings.
    maybe a graveyard (stecak) - but stecaks were not used only by krstjani.
    maybe we cold make those graveyards have some kind of calming effect (happiness) on population - rather than convention (to "krstjani" religion) bonus. "calming effect" in way that they promote some kind of religious toleration amongst various religious groups. that way we could compensate lack of cathedrals and other buildings that give happiness to population, and make life easier to Bosnian player. he would not hampered by religious unrest so much if he has some provinces in which "krstajni" are minority or are not present.

  8. #88
    NikeBG's Avatar Sampsis
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    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska (matko says: all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    Quote Originally Posted by phoenix[illusion] View Post
    well, i wouldn't change grandfather thing, cause he was called djed (deda, dida). there are slightly difference between bosnain church and bogomils
    No, no, I don't mean to change the "grandfather" translation of djed - I fully agree that "djed" must be translated as "grandfather", which is its meaning. I meant that "djed" doesn't equal "Bogomilorum papa", as in Bosnian King's pic in the first post (even if we accept that the Bosnians were Bogomils, which seems to be out of favour today; and if they're not Bogomils, it's even more obvious the djed can't be a "Bogomil Pope").

  9. #89
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    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska (matko says: all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    Quote Originally Posted by Adnan View Post
    What about this building from Bihać (ignore minaret)? Not sure about accuracy of it but it looks fairly simple
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Here is link to forum where it was posted http://www.allempires.com/forum/foru...s.asp?TID=5625
    And this is from author of article: The oldest mosque in the Bosnian city of Bihac is a unique example of this process. It was converted into a mosque when the people of what was then a town converted to Islam. What makes the Bihac mosque so unique is, firstly, the original church was a Bosnian Church. Secondly, the church was converted into a mosque within a single lifetime of being built so many of the same people who helped build it certainly helped convert it
    It's a very nice picture and it's quiet unique when it comes to the cultural heritage of Bihac itself and Bosnia and Herzegovina at large. But, in all honesty to me personally this looks like Roman Catholic Church that was simply converted into a Mosque. You can clearly see that Romano-Gothic architecture and all the other visual evidence points to the fact that it was a Roman Catholic Cathedral! The question is are there any other buildings of the Bosnian Church that look like or may have looked like this or this is the only one??
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  10. #90

    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska (matko says: all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    Quote Originally Posted by NikeBG View Post
    No, no, I don't mean to change the "grandfather" translation of djed - I fully agree that "djed" must be translated as "grandfather", which is its meaning. I meant that "djed" doesn't equal "Bogomilorum papa", as in Bosnian King's pic in the first post (even if we accept that the Bosnians were Bogomils, which seems to be out of favour today; and if they're not Bogomils, it's even more obvious the djed can't be a "Bogomil Pope").
    Yes you are right. That picture from my first post is not totally correct. Bosnian christioans and Bogomils are totally different things and there is no real proof that those christians from Bosnia were actually institutionalised Bogomils.
    kada se bjehmo svadili, tada nas Stjepan Rajkovic umiri i da nam nas grad Bobovac, a neda ga dati Ugrom.

    "And when we were in a quarrel between each other; Stijepan Rajkovic calmed us down. And we entrusted our capital of Bobovac to him after which he defended it against the Hungarians (King Tvrtko I Kotromanic 1366.)"

  11. #91

    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska (matko says: all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    Quote Originally Posted by matko View Post
    and this tells a lot about Jajce. not many "Krstjani" there.

    now 2 biggest medieval churches in modern Bosnia are in Bihac and Jajce.
    Bihac wasnt part Bosnian and Jajce was in dominant catholic surrounding at the very western edge of Krstjani sphere of influence.

    in the central Bosnia where Krstjani were numerous there were no big churches. how to explain this.
    well first there wasnt any significant cities in Bosnia at all. Jajce (and Bobovac to some extent) is something of a exception. there were some castles which had housings around them but those were not really urban settlements.
    second explanation is that Bosnian church was not interested in building big churches. as i understood money was not a problem. Bosnian church had estates, silver and gold. and with their good connections to local nobility they were open to donations.
    Well you say that there were no big cities at all but nowhere in europe were real big cities. We are talking about the middle ages.

    And it is really wrong to think that we can conclude something from the fact that we can not see big churches in Bosnia from the Bosnian christians. Why is this wrong?

    A) Because in 1460 the Bosnian king already began to destroy the Bosnian church as an institution and to convert Bosnia into a catholic land (he hoped that the pope would help him against the turks). So already then we can say that most of the "Bosnian churches" were:

    1) destroyed
    2) changed into catholic ones

    Because if the last Bosnian king did not hasitate to kill the church leaders or to kick them out of Bosnia and to kill a lot of bosnian christians; why would he save their churches?

    B)When the turks came to Bosnia a big part of the population converted to Islam. Many historians think that this happened because the Bosnian church was destroyeda view years eralier. If there were bosnian churches left; no one would use them anymore. It was impossible in that time to rebuild the Bosnian church.
    kada se bjehmo svadili, tada nas Stjepan Rajkovic umiri i da nam nas grad Bobovac, a neda ga dati Ugrom.

    "And when we were in a quarrel between each other; Stijepan Rajkovic calmed us down. And we entrusted our capital of Bobovac to him after which he defended it against the Hungarians (King Tvrtko I Kotromanic 1366.)"

  12. #92

    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska (matko says: all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    Quote Originally Posted by il_duce_! View Post
    Mine too. Lets use that one, then.
    Actually you can better use the cross from the "coin" of Ban Kulin and from the plate of Ban Kulin. We know that this was the simbol of the bosnian christians. So if you want to be historical correct use that. It is a simetrical cross with small 90 degree admits towards the end. See the central cross in the second row.



    This simbol was found 2 times. One time at a coin from silver which was produce during the Kulin's reign and a second time at this plateau and many many times at stecaks.
    kada se bjehmo svadili, tada nas Stjepan Rajkovic umiri i da nam nas grad Bobovac, a neda ga dati Ugrom.

    "And when we were in a quarrel between each other; Stijepan Rajkovic calmed us down. And we entrusted our capital of Bobovac to him after which he defended it against the Hungarians (King Tvrtko I Kotromanic 1366.)"

  13. #93
    Matthæus's Avatar Knez Bribirski
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    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska (matko says: all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bosnian_King View Post
    Well you say that there were no big cities at all but nowhere in europe were real big cities. We are talking about the middle ages.
    we are talking about year 1355. not 955.
    so what your saying is just not true. Zadar had 5000-7000. Zagreb 4000-6000, Dubrovnik 9000.
    there is not a single settlement in Bosnia that grew to this size (with exception of perhaps Bobovac which was still smaller than any of those listed, and Jajce in 1450's).

    PS
    And Paris was around 100,000 at this time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bosnian_King View Post
    And it is really wrong to think that we can conclude something from the fact that we can not see big churches in Bosnia from the Bosnian christians. Why is this wrong?

    A) Because in 1460 the Bosnian king already began to destroy the Bosnian church as an institution and to convert Bosnia into a catholic land (he hoped that the pope would help him against the turks). So already then we can say that most of the "Bosnian churches" were:

    1) destroyed
    2) changed into catholic ones


    Because if the last Bosnian king did not hasitate to kill the church leaders or to kick them out of Bosnia and to kill a lot of bosnian christians; why would he save their churches?
    then how it is possible that we find remains of big structures from Roman era that were also destroyed ? and not from 13-16th century ? explain Mogorjelo and other antic localities?

    where are that catholic churches then (that originally were built by Bosnian church)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bosnian_King View Post
    B)When the turks came to Bosnia a big part of the population converted to Islam. Many historians think that this happened because the Bosnian church was destroyeda view years eralier. If there were bosnian churches left; no one would use them anymore. It was impossible in that time to rebuild the Bosnian church.
    it is no problem if church was destroyed. something always remains. at least a foundation can be found. dont get me wrong, most of medieval churches in Croatia are destroyed for the same reasons but archeological finds are still there. we can even find an Illyrian temples, so why not churches of Bosnian church?

    PS
    if you want to prove me wrong - find me some examples of big church structures in central Bosnia.

  14. #94

    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska (matko says: all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    Quote Originally Posted by matko View Post

    where are that catholic churches then (that originally were built by Bosnian church)?

    I do not say that Bosnia was a heavy populated country. It was not. But to talk about 5000- 6000 people in Bobovac or Jajce. It looks a little bit too little to my opinion. I read somwhere that Bobovac had 20.000 inhabitants.


    Now where are all those Bosnian churches you ask. I don't know. I have to read first more about it and then I will know. But I can tell you: they were there in medieval Bosnia. Why? Because the Bosnian kings mention them. They mention the "Bosnian church churches." They mention those churches, money for the building of those churches and they mention lands which was given to those churches.

    Further I would say that the "hiza" is not a house like it says at wikipedia but this were those small churches where the Bosnian christians came to pray.

    For many remainings at Bobovac historians can not say what those things were. Because only the fundaments were left and nothing more. Can you tell me what this was in the 14. century?




    It is a fact that Bosnian kings mention very often the bosnian church (almost in every document). It is a fact that all the more important historians from Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia and international historians agree about the place of this church inside the bosnian state.

    When we look at the remainings from that time then we have:

    1) A lot of destoyed stone structures and walls at high mountains and deep valeys where only ratelsnakes and wolves live. And about many of those structures nobody knows exactly what they were. For instance the town of "Vrh-bosna" was situated exactly where today the centre of Sarajevo lies. God only knows what lies under those buildings. During excavations in 2000 some mosques were found of 400 years old and nobody knew about them. Today people are excavating the "piramides" in Bosnia which are also, most likely, remaings from the old medieval town of Visoki, but nobody can tell how big this town was, which buildings there were, we know really nothing and this was one of the more important towns. There is so much under the ground and nobody knows about it.

    The old church in Mile; where almost all the bosnian kings were crowned (may be even Tvrtko himself); a road was made directly parallel to this church. No money for excavations, reconstructions etc. Can you tell me for sure thas this church was not a bosnian church? How many churches from this time are left really? The old church in Jajce and the one in Bobovac are the only churches which were the in medieval Bosnia. And the church of Jajce is totally destroyed. It's a monument.

    2) But we have more than those destroyed remaings from stone which are visible or non visible (under the ground). We got those "povelje" = letters from the Bosnian kings.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Those letters mention almost always the Bosnian church as something which was so importand and so central within the Bosnian state that there is no room for doubt about its position within the state. From those letters we can read very clear (even an amateur who is a little bit intelligent ) That there were 3 factors of power within the Bosnian state:

    1) The crown (the kings and queens)
    2) The Bosnian church
    3) The nobility

    3) The thirth source which mentions the Bosnian church; its "grandfathers" , "Big guests", "guests" and "strojniks" are the grafetombs or how the old bosnians called them already in their time "stecaks". Those grafetombs even mention this form of christianity under the name "bosnian faith" (a graftomb near Foca has this inscription on it).

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    And we must not forget that it is not totally unlogical that the Bosnians did not make hundreds of those churches. We know that during the 12th century the Bosnians had to go to the field of Bilino polje to publically, in presence of the officials from the Roman Catholic church; declare that they are catholics. We know also that the Hungarian kings always used the "argument" about "the heretics in Bosnia" when they wanted to assimliate Bosnia within the Hungarian kingdom. This was how they justified all those wars in relation to the pope. It is not more than logical that the Bosnian kings were very carefull with what they were doing at the "international scene".

    It because of this "difficult situation" that almost all the Bosnian rulers from the 1189- 1463. declred themelves as catholics or orthodox christians. But all of them recognised also the Bosnian church as one of the three fundaments of the state. According to dr. Dubravko Lovrenovic ( a respected historian and intelektual from Sarajevo) this was because the church was not only a relligion; but at the first place and more important: an instrument of the state which:

    1) Tried to fight the attempts of the Hungarian crown which tried to assimilate Bosnia by installing a "pro-Hungarian"" catholic church.

    2) It was an institution which had the responsibility to judge iver the nobles and the ordinary population and to regulate the relations between the nobles and the kings. This is why the bosnian church was (most likely) always present at the "Bosnian meetings".

    I know more about the political function of the Bosnian church. I read a lot about it. We should not forget that there was a cold religious war between Bosnia and Hungaria for more than 300 years. And those states were very often in real war also. Hungarian kings openly said many times that "bosnia was part of Hungaria" Ban Ninoslav fought the Hunharians around 1200 already, with succes. But the Hungarians have always tried; to assimliate Bosnia. They tried to prevent the Bosnian bans to crown themelves to king. And when Bosnia became a kingdom they many times proclaimed like:"I am going to Bobovac to crown myself with "our?" Bosnian crown."

    The Bosnian church was an succesfull instrument which succesfully foyght those Hungarian attempts during more than 3 centuries. It was an institute which, at the same time, held the nobles satisfied; regulated the order inside the state and fought back the Hungarisation of Bosnia.
    Last edited by Bosnian_King; June 29, 2010 at 06:50 PM.
    kada se bjehmo svadili, tada nas Stjepan Rajkovic umiri i da nam nas grad Bobovac, a neda ga dati Ugrom.

    "And when we were in a quarrel between each other; Stijepan Rajkovic calmed us down. And we entrusted our capital of Bobovac to him after which he defended it against the Hungarians (King Tvrtko I Kotromanic 1366.)"

  15. #95
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    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska (matko says: all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bosnian_King View Post
    I do not say that Bosnia was a heavy populated country. It was not. But to talk about 5000- 6000 people in Bobovac or Jajce. It looks a little bit too little to my opinion. I read somwhere that Bobovac had 20.000 inhabitants.
    double of what Dubrovnik had? even with area was several times smaller ?
    totally impossible. there is just no way that so many people lived there.
    and you said before there no big cities in Bosnia. 20,000 inhabitants would mean Bobovac is largest city in x-yu.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bosnian_King View Post
    Now where are all those Bosnian churches you ask. I don't know. I have to read first more about it and then I will know. But I can tell you: they were there in medieval Bosnia. Why? Because the Bosnian kings mention them. They mention the "Bosnian church churches." They mention those churches, money for the building of those churches and they mention lands which was given to those churches.

    Further I would say that the "hiza" is not a house like it says at wikipedia but this were those small churches where the Bosnian christians came to pray.

    For many remainings at Bobovac historians can not say what those things were. Because only the fundaments were left and nothing more. Can you tell me what this was in the 14. century?




    It is a fact that Bosnian kings mention very often the bosnian church (almost in every document). It is a fact that all the more important historians from Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia and international historians agree about the place of this church inside the bosnian state.

    When we look at the remainings from that time then we have:

    1) A lot of destoyed stone structures and walls at high mountains and deep valeys where only ratelsnakes and wolves live. And about many of those structures nobody knows exactly what they were. For instance the town of "Vrh-bosna" was situated exactly where today the centre of Sarajevo lies. God only knows what lies under those buildings. During excavations in 2000 some mosques were found of 400 years old and nobody knew about them. Today people are excavating the "piramides" in Bosnia which are also, most likely, remaings from the old medieval town of Visoki, but nobody can tell how big this town was, which buildings there were, we know really nothing and this was one of the more important towns. There is so much under the ground and nobody knows about it.
    well these is where you are wrong. if churches build by Bosnian church were anything like ones that catholic church they would have been built on very specific way. any you can see what each structure is by its foundations.

    some examples: those churches are destroyed to the ground:
    http://www.metkovic.hr/iskra/373temelji.jpg
    http://www.destinacije.com/datum_nav...&cp=121&s=Next
    http://www.destinacije.com/slika_nav...le&cp=2&s=Next
    http://www.destinacije.com/slika_nav...e&cp=17&s=Next
    http://www.destinacije.com/slika_nav...e&cp=16&s=Next

    but still we know they were churches.

    for clarification read this text:
    http://www.ezadar.hr/preview/clanak/...vskih-biskupa/

    it is about a church in Udbina which was leveled to the ground sometime in late 15/ early 16th century by the Ottomans. the whole population deserted and it was forgotten until recently.
    see this:

    "Krbavska katedrala ima poligonalno svetište s vanjskim i unutarnjim kontraforima, dužine je 36 metara, širine broda 12, a širine svetišta 9 metara"

    so that is how you know it is a church. it has those recognizable architectural elements.
    brod:
    http://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brod_%28arhitektura%29
    or Transept:
    http://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transept

    there is a lot of them, and they are a bit different with each building style. so if a structure does not have those elements then it does not look like Catholic church. so this is how you can tell what a certain structure was in 14th century .

    Quote Originally Posted by Bosnian_King View Post
    The old church in Mile; where almost all the bosnian kings were crowned (may be even Tvrtko himself); a road was made directly parallel to this church. No money for excavations, reconstructions etc. Can you tell me for sure thas this church was not a bosnian church?
    church in Mile could be - but ten it is a chapel not a cathedral. i never said that there are no "church buildings" - i said there is no "big church buildings"

    Quote Originally Posted by Bosnian_King View Post
    How many churches from this time are left really?
    exactly

    Quote Originally Posted by Bosnian_King View Post
    The old church in Jajce and the one in Bobovac are the only churches which were the in medieval Bosnia. And the church of Jajce is totally destroyed. It's a monument.
    church in Jajce is i n better condition than most of medieval churches in Croatia (outside Dalmatian cities).

  16. #96

    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska (matko says: all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bosnian_King View Post
    I do not say that Bosnia was a heavy populated country. It was not. But to talk about 5000- 6000 people in Bobovac or Jajce. It looks a little bit too little to my opinion. I read somwhere that Bobovac had 20.000 inhabitants.


    Now where are all those Bosnian churches you ask. I don't know. I have to read first more about it and then I will know. But I can tell you: they were there in medieval Bosnia. Why? Because the Bosnian kings mention them. They mention the "Bosnian church churches." They mention those churches, money for the building of those churches and they mention lands which was given to those churches.

    Further I would say that the "hiza" is not a house like it says at wikipedia but this were those small churches where the Bosnian christians came to pray.

    For many remainings at Bobovac historians can not say what those things were. Because only the fundaments were left and nothing more. Can you tell me what this was in the 14. century?




    It is a fact that Bosnian kings mention very often the bosnian church (almost in every document). It is a fact that all the more important historians from Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia and international historians agree about the place of this church inside the bosnian state.

    When we look at the remainings from that time then we have:

    1) A lot of destoyed stone structures and walls at high mountains and deep valeys where only ratelsnakes and wolves live. And about many of those structures nobody knows exactly what they were. For instance the town of "Vrh-bosna" was situated exactly where today the centre of Sarajevo lies. God only knows what lies under those buildings. During excavations in 2000 some mosques were found of 400 years old and nobody knew about them. Today people are excavating the "piramides" in Bosnia which are also, most likely, remaings from the old medieval town of Visoki, but nobody can tell how big this town was, which buildings there were, we know really nothing and this was one of the more important towns. There is so much under the ground and nobody knows about it.

    The old church in Mile; where almost all the bosnian kings were crowned (may be even Tvrtko himself); a road was made directly parallel to this church. No money for excavations, reconstructions etc. Can you tell me for sure thas this church was not a bosnian church? How many churches from this time are left really? The old church in Jajce and the one in Bobovac are the only churches which were the in medieval Bosnia. And the church of Jajce is totally destroyed. It's a monument.

    2) But we have more than those destroyed remaings from stone which are visible or non visible (under the ground). We got those "povelje" = letters from the Bosnian kings.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Those letters mention almost always the Bosnian church as something which was so importand and so central within the Bosnian state that there is no room for doubt about its position within the state. From those letters we can read very clear (even an amateur who is a little bit intelligent ) That there were 3 factors of power within the Bosnian state:

    1) The crown (the kings and queens)
    2) The Bosnian church
    3) The nobility

    3) The thirth source which mentions the Bosnian church; its "grandfathers" , "Big guests", "guests" and "strojniks" are the grafetombs or how the old bosnians called them already in their time "stecaks". Those grafetombs even mention this form of christianity under the name "bosnian faith" (a graftomb near Foca has this inscription on it).

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    And we must not forget that it is not totally unlogical that the Bosnians did not make hundreds of those churches. We know that during the 12th century the Bosnians had to go to the field of Bilino polje to publically, in presence of the officials from the Roman Catholic church; declare that they are catholics. We know also that the Hungarian kings always used the "argument" about "the heretics in Bosnia" when they wanted to assimliate Bosnia within the Hungarian kingdom. This was how they justified all those wars in relation to the pope. It is not more than logical that the Bosnian kings were very carefull with what they were doing at the "international scene".

    It because of this "difficult situation" that almost all the Bosnian rulers from the 1189- 1463. declred themelves as catholics or orthodox christians. But all of them recognised also the Bosnian church as one of the three fundaments of the state. According to dr. Dubravko Lovrenovic ( a respected historian and intelektual from Sarajevo) this was because the church was not only a relligion; but at the first place and more important: an instrument of the state which:

    1) Tried to fight the attempts of the Hungarian crown which tried to assimilate Bosnia by installing a "pro-Hungarian"" catholic church.

    2) It was an institution which had the responsibility to judge iver the nobles and the ordinary population and to regulate the relations between the nobles and the kings. This is why the bosnian church was (most likely) always present at the "Bosnian meetings".

    I know more about the political function of the Bosnian church. I read a lot about it. We should not forget that there was a cold religious war between Bosnia and Hungaria for more than 300 years. And those states were very often in real war also. Hungarian kings openly said many times that "bosnia was part of Hungaria" Ban Ninoslav fought the Hunharians around 1200 already, with succes. But the Hungarians have always tried; to assimliate Bosnia. They tried to prevent the Bosnian bans to crown themelves to king. And when Bosnia became a kingdom they many times proclaimed like:"I am going to Bobovac to crown myself with "our?" Bosnian crown."

    The Bosnian church was an succesfull instrument which succesfully foyght those Hungarian attempts during more than 3 centuries. It was an institute which, at the same time, held the nobles satisfied; regulated the order inside the state and fought back the Hungarisation of Bosnia.
    A) There are no ratelsnakes in Bosnia or Balkan...
    B) Tvrtko was crowned in orhodox monastery Mileseva...

    Now, I've got a question for all of you: It is obvious that there were, and still are orthodox Serbs living in Bosnia... Then there must have been orthodox church in Bosnia too... The same thing i can say about catholic church, so what are you going to do about it? Are you going to make those churches and monasteries on the map, or what?

  17. #97
    phoenix[illusion]'s Avatar Palman Bracht
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    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska (matko says: all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    well, after destruction of Atik mosque, remainings of orthodox church has been found underneath mosque, which dated before ottomans. so, there were serbian churches, but many destroyed by ottomans
    long time no see, but still twc drug kickin'
    check out Tsardoms: Total War!
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  18. #98

    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska (matko says: all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    Yes, but mod starts before ottomans so are you making those churches on Bosnian teritory or not? It would be historicaly accurate...

  19. #99
    phoenix[illusion]'s Avatar Palman Bracht
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    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska (matko says: all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    Quote Originally Posted by dabela View Post
    Yes, but mod starts before ottomans so are you making those churches on Bosnian teritory or not? It would be historicaly accurate...
    of course. bosnia as only krstjan church is nonsense, there were also catholic and orthodox churches. they will be included. duce has some plans for religions
    long time no see, but still twc drug kickin'
    check out Tsardoms: Total War!
    Under patronage of respectable Annaeus
    Patron of honorable Giacomo Colonna


  20. #100

    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska (matko says: all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    Awesome...

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