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Thread: Bosnian Church & Bosnia Discussions (all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

  1. #61
    Adnan's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska (matko says: all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    What about this building from Bihać (ignore minaret)? Not sure about accuracy of it but it looks fairly simple
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Here is link to forum where it was posted http://www.allempires.com/forum/foru...s.asp?TID=5625
    And this is from author of article: The oldest mosque in the Bosnian city of Bihac is a unique example of this process. It was converted into a mosque when the people of what was then a town converted to Islam. What makes the Bihac mosque so unique is, firstly, the original church was a Bosnian Church. Secondly, the church was converted into a mosque within a single lifetime of being built so many of the same people who helped build it certainly helped convert it
    Last edited by Adnan; June 25, 2010 at 03:20 PM.

  2. #62
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    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska (matko says: all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    If you are going to use ljiljani as a symbol of the Bosnian Kingdom then u can use the cross thats 3 rows down and 6 over.
    Or the one thats 9 rows down and 3 over.
    They seem to be decorated with something like ljiljani so why not use one of the two.

    Христе Боже распети и свети, Српска земља кроз облаке лети. Лети преко небеских висина, Крила су јој Морава и Дрина.
    На три свето и на три саставно,Одлазимо на Косово равно.
    Кад је драга да одлазим чула,За ревер ми невен заденула.
    Збогом први нерођени сине, Збогом ружо, збогом рузмарине. Збогом лето, јесени и зимо. Одлазимо да их победимо.
    March 24, 1999 - June 11, 1999


  3. #63

    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska (matko says: all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    Bihac was part of the Croatian kingdom and later the Hungarian kingdom. It never was under bosnian rule.
    kada se bjehmo svadili, tada nas Stjepan Rajkovic umiri i da nam nas grad Bobovac, a neda ga dati Ugrom.

    "And when we were in a quarrel between each other; Stijepan Rajkovic calmed us down. And we entrusted our capital of Bobovac to him after which he defended it against the Hungarians (King Tvrtko I Kotromanic 1366.)"

  4. #64
    Matthæus's Avatar Knez Bribirski
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    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska (matko says: all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    http://www.bosniafacts.info/web/Bosnian_Stecci.php
    useful, very useful.

    those ornamental patterns are good for clothes decoration.
    there is weapons (spears, lances with flags, partisan, swords, 1h axes, mace, saber, ) - heraldry, and soldiers, spearmen, guy with axe and jousting knights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bosnian_King View Post
    Bihac was part of the Croatian kingdom and later the Hungarian kingdom. It never was under bosnian rule.
    correct. and the way Ottomans conquered it was not very honorable. they offered besieged inhabitants honorable surrender and safe passage to the Hapsburg controlled lands. but as soon they left the city Ottomans broke the deal. without going into details, lets just say not many survived.

    now i must be careful not to go off topic...
    Last edited by Matthæus; June 25, 2010 at 03:38 PM.

  5. #65
    phoenix[illusion]'s Avatar Palman Bracht
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    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska (matko says: all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    now i'm reading about bosnian church, and the author says statement as "bosnian church hated cross, icons, churches" was just a catholic propaganda. they had their churches, and used cross as symbols
    long time no see, but still twc drug kickin'
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  6. #66

    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska (matko says: all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    Quote Originally Posted by phoenix[illusion] View Post
    now i'm reading about bosnian church, and the author says statement as "bosnian church hated cross, icons, churches" was just a catholic propaganda. they had their churches, and used cross as symbols
    Very possible. The catholic church liked to declare everybody a heretic whoever they didn't like.
    kada se bjehmo svadili, tada nas Stjepan Rajkovic umiri i da nam nas grad Bobovac, a neda ga dati Ugrom.

    "And when we were in a quarrel between each other; Stijepan Rajkovic calmed us down. And we entrusted our capital of Bobovac to him after which he defended it against the Hungarians (King Tvrtko I Kotromanic 1366.)"

  7. #67
    Matthæus's Avatar Knez Bribirski
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    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska (matko says: all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    well it seems in Bosnia nothing is as it seems


    John Fine, Professor of History at the University of Michigan, revolutionized the scholarship around the Bosnian Church with his pivotal work,The Bosnian Church. In that work, he argues that the Bosnian Church was not related to the Bogomils or other dualist groups. Instead, he asserts that the church was actually founded by Franciscan Monks from the Catholic Church.[2]

    no comment...

    Quote Originally Posted by phoenix[illusion] View Post
    now i'm reading about bosnian church, and the author says statement as "bosnian church hated cross, icons, churches" was just a catholic propaganda. they had their churches, and used cross as symbols
    i think a lot of those is because Catholic church believed in connection between Cathar and Patarene heresy. so those are actually the things that church had against cathars
    Last edited by Matthæus; June 25, 2010 at 03:53 PM.

  8. #68
    phoenix[illusion]'s Avatar Palman Bracht
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    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska (matko says: all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    za krst:

    "tako su, na primer, sva tri zbornika crkve bosanske, mletacki, hvalov i radoslavljev, ilustrovani znakom krsta"
    "u Zborniku krtsjana Radoslava ucrtano je 6 krstova, koji zajedno cine jedan krst"
    "bosanski se vladari sluze znakom krsta, koje se nalazi u pismu jepiskopa crkve bosanske"
    "u dvema poveljama koje je, prihvatajuci arbitrazu deda crkve bosanske i njegovih strojnika, izdao prilikom pomirenja sa zenom i sinom, herceg Stefan se kune u casni i zivotopisni krst Gospodnji i u njih upisuje znak krsta"

    za ikone:
    "...Hvalov zbornik koji sadrzi likove apostola, Hrista i Djeve Marije"
    "...vecina knjiga crkve bosanske ilustrovani inicijalima, zastavicama, Hristovim simbolima"
    long time no see, but still twc drug kickin'
    check out Tsardoms: Total War!
    Under patronage of respectable Annaeus
    Patron of honorable Giacomo Colonna


  9. #69

    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska (matko says: all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    I found from book "Vojna enciklopedija 1959"
    After the persecution from Serbia,bogomili settled Bosnia,with support Kulin ban they have created so-called "Bosnian Church".....
    During Kulin ban the struggle, first Hungarian king Bela III to that of heretics arose, and then his son Emeric and Zeta King Vukan Nemanjić their intrigues against Bosnia and Huma (the hill reignest prince Miroslav, Kulinov-in-law, known as a determined and faithful son of the Eastern Church) provoking Pope Innocent III, who work under the protection of Hungary into Bosnia of its members John de Casamaris-a, and on the State Council of Bijelo Polje and Bolin (near Zenica), 8 April 1203rd year. threats Ban Kulin , their families and (grandparents and guests of the monastery Dragiša, Ljubina, Dragos, Pribišu, Ljuben, Rados and Vladoša) patarenske "Bosnian Church, an opportunity to force the declaration and his signature verification, how now renounce the schism and recognize Science and customs of the Roman Church. Kulin ban is more 1202nd year, at the invitation of Pope and King Emeric whiteness of his successor, to deny ("patarenstva" )?( Orthodox) and expelled heretics from Bosnia..blabla...

    kulin ban cross.
    [IMG][/IMG]
    Last edited by Baron Vlad Felix; June 25, 2010 at 04:27 PM.

  10. #70

    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska (matko says: all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    http://samoistina.com/2/boisna/stecak.jpg

    May be you can use this simbol for the simbol of th church. It cots a cross and a fleur de lille. The cross as the simbol of the faith and the fleur de lille as the simbol of the bosnian state?

    There exists today a bosnian church in Bosnia. It was founded in 2000. And they call themselves the "krcanska zajednica". I think they are the hardcore nationalists. This is their website:

    http://www.crkvabosanska.org/

    As you see also they use the simbol of the cross and the bosnian crown and a little sheep as the simbol of "purity". May be this is also an idea. And they call their church the "Hiza" I think that the bosnians also called the bosnian church like that but I am not sure...
    kada se bjehmo svadili, tada nas Stjepan Rajkovic umiri i da nam nas grad Bobovac, a neda ga dati Ugrom.

    "And when we were in a quarrel between each other; Stijepan Rajkovic calmed us down. And we entrusted our capital of Bobovac to him after which he defended it against the Hungarians (King Tvrtko I Kotromanic 1366.)"

  11. #71
    Matthæus's Avatar Knez Bribirski
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    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska (matko says: all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    Quote Originally Posted by phoenix[illusion] View Post
    za krst:

    "tako su, na primer, sva tri zbornika crkve bosanske, mletacki, hvalov i radoslavljev, ilustrovani znakom krsta"
    "u Zborniku krtsjana Radoslava ucrtano je 6 krstova, koji zajedno cine jedan krst"
    "bosanski se vladari sluze znakom krsta, koje se nalazi u pismu jepiskopa crkve bosanske"
    "u dvema poveljama koje je, prihvatajuci arbitrazu deda crkve bosanske i njegovih strojnika, izdao prilikom pomirenja sa zenom i sinom, herceg Stefan se kune u casni i zivotopisni krst Gospodnji i u njih upisuje znak krsta"

    za ikone:
    "...Hvalov zbornik koji sadrzi likove apostola, Hrista i Djeve Marije"
    "...vecina knjiga crkve bosanske ilustrovani inicijalima, zastavicama, Hristovim simbolima"


    and hundreds of crosses on stecaks.
    this is now clear.

    we have to choose some type of cross.
    my favorite is one with circle and cross inside
    http://www.bosniafacts.info/stecci/d...n_stecci_6.png


    Quote Originally Posted by Bosnian_King View Post
    And they call their church the "Hiza" I think that the bosnians also called the bosnian church like that but I am not sure...
    correct. hiža literally means house. in this context an prayer-house. so it is some kind of church.

    and it seems there were monasteries as well...
    Last edited by Matthæus; June 25, 2010 at 04:26 PM.

  12. #72

    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska (matko says: all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    Quote Originally Posted by matko View Post
    and hundreds of crosses on stecaks.
    this is now clear.

    we have to choose some type of cross.
    my favorite is one with circle and cross inside
    http://www.bosniafacts.info/stecci/d...n_stecci_6.png




    correct. hiža literally means house. in this context an prayer-house. so it is some kind of church
    I know which cross you can choose! Look!



    This is the plateu of Kulin Ban. This was the simbol of the bosnian church during ban Kulin! And also this is one of the simbol of the football club Celik from Zenica. They have it on their stadium.

    I am stupid that I did not got this idea earlier but when I saw this cross on this page I remembered!

    So according to me it is clear. Actually we know what the simbol of the Bosnian church was only I forgot about it:




    This is the simbol of Ban Kulin. During his rule around 1200 about 100.000 Bosnians had to convert themsleves to catholicism. But when the representatives of the Pope left Bosnia they just continued with their religion where the stopped.
    kada se bjehmo svadili, tada nas Stjepan Rajkovic umiri i da nam nas grad Bobovac, a neda ga dati Ugrom.

    "And when we were in a quarrel between each other; Stijepan Rajkovic calmed us down. And we entrusted our capital of Bobovac to him after which he defended it against the Hungarians (King Tvrtko I Kotromanic 1366.)"

  13. #73
    Adnan's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska (matko says: all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    What about this PDF book http://www.muzic-ivan.info/vjera_crkve%20bosanske.pdf
    From page 133 it describes catacombs in Jajce and on page 141 it shows a picture of a symbol inside.
    Im not familiar with historians and their reliability so Matko or Bosnian king should check it out.

  14. #74
    Matthæus's Avatar Knez Bribirski
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    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska (matko says: all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    Quote Originally Posted by Adnan View Post
    What about this PDF book http://www.muzic-ivan.info/vjera_crkve%20bosanske.pdf
    From page 133 it describes catacombs in Jajce and on page 141 it shows a picture of a symbol inside.
    Im not familiar with historians and their reliability so Matko or Bosnian king should check it out.
    he claims that Croats were here before Romans.

    but i wont judge everything he wrote until i read it.

    PS
    page 72 church in Mile near Visoko (reconstruction)
    Last edited by Matthæus; June 26, 2010 at 05:00 AM.

  15. #75
    phoenix[illusion]'s Avatar Palman Bracht
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    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska (matko says: all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    Quote Originally Posted by matko View Post
    and it seems there were monasteries as well...
    well, in this book that i'm reading, monasteries were mentioned
    long time no see, but still twc drug kickin'
    check out Tsardoms: Total War!
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  16. #76

    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska (matko says: all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    @matko

    I am looking at page 76 of this book but I don't see a reconstruction of a church. I see it at page 72:



    I think you can use it may be.



    This is a chappel at the capital Bobovac. It was built during the Bosnian kingdom and later it was turned into a chappel in favour of the "knighthood" by king Ostojic if I remember well..

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    I think that it is possible that this was a bosnian church chappel.
    Last edited by Bosnian_King; June 26, 2010 at 04:41 AM.
    kada se bjehmo svadili, tada nas Stjepan Rajkovic umiri i da nam nas grad Bobovac, a neda ga dati Ugrom.

    "And when we were in a quarrel between each other; Stijepan Rajkovic calmed us down. And we entrusted our capital of Bobovac to him after which he defended it against the Hungarians (King Tvrtko I Kotromanic 1366.)"

  17. #77
    2Shy's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska (matko says: all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    so oftopic ...


  18. #78
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    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska (matko says: all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    Quote Originally Posted by Adnan View Post
    What about this building from Bihać (ignore minaret)? Not sure about accuracy of it but it looks fairly simple
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Here is link to forum where it was posted http://www.allempires.com/forum/foru...s.asp?TID=5625
    And this is from author of article: The oldest mosque in the Bosnian city of Bihac is a unique example of this process. It was converted into a mosque when the people of what was then a town converted to Islam. What makes the Bihac mosque so unique is, firstly, the original church was a Bosnian Church. Secondly, the church was converted into a mosque within a single lifetime of being built so many of the same people who helped build it certainly helped convert it
    wow man.Bihac was croatian city with catholic population.no sign of heresy there.that building was the catholic Church of St.Ante.In church is also a tombstone of croatian dux Stjepan Blagajski (died in year 1502.).on the tombstone is very realistic "picture" of knight sallet from end of 15th century.

    P.S. if anyone have the picture of this tombstone please send this picture or post it here.Please!!!!
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  19. #79
    Adnan's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska (matko says: all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    Yeah I know. Like I said I wasnt sure about accuracy so I posted it here for debate.

  20. #80

    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska (matko says: all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    Quote Originally Posted by matko View Post
    my favorite is one with circle and cross inside
    http://www.bosniafacts.info/stecci/d...n_stecci_6.png
    Mine too. Lets use that one, then.

    TTW GRANDMASTER

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