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Thread: Bosnian Church & Bosnia Discussions (all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

  1. #181
    Darios's Avatar Slava Darios!
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    Default Re: Bosnian Church & Bosnia Discussions (all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bosnian_King View Post
    And I know that Croats as a minority are butthurt. We dont let them even have a tv channel nowadays.
    Quote Originally Posted by Miszel View Post
    I'm just personally tired by balkanites on out forums arguing about everything.
    These type of arguments generally stem from the western Balkans.

    The only thing stopping me from complaining about it personally is that this is probably the first time factions like Bosnia, Ragusa, etc will be depicted in a Total War game in serious detail so I guess they want to see it done right. (Of course - 'right' here refers to whatever historical viewpoint they may or may not have concerning x topic.)
    Under the Patronage of PikeStance


  2. #182
    Svir@c's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: Bosnian Church & Bosnia Discussions (all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    Quote Originally Posted by Darios View Post
    The only thing stopping me from complaining about it personally is that this is probably the first time factions like Bosnia, Ragusa, etc will be depicted in a Total War game in serious detail so I guess they want to see it done right. (Of course - 'right' here refers to whatever historical viewpoint they may or may not have concerning x topic.)
    Finnaly! Exactly! Thank you ... Sorry for quoted you but this is the main reason for Tzardom to exist (eventualy). And there is a word in TWC: "if you don't like something then make submod!"

  3. #183

    Default Re: Bosnian Church & Bosnia Discussions (all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    there is no much info,actual historyans are saying that there like only 6 diferent units on the whole balkans!

  4. #184
    Wallachian's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Bosnian Church & Bosnia Discussions (all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bosnian_King View Post
    Why is any info relevant if even the banner is totally made up? You can add German soldiers into the Bosnian roster from now
    This is getting seriously annoying. I HAVE STATED NUMEROUS TIME THAT A BANNER IS EASILY CHANGED. Also, the banner is NOT made up, there was evidence provided for both sides and it was a matter of interpretation. Since we are a small volunteer team that have worked for 10 YEARS without any pay or anything just for a hobby it is very hard to get everything perfect. Since there are not people crowding to help us and Bosnia is one of 30 faction we used whatever resources we could find. One of our historians which was from the area suggested changing the lilly for the crown which we did. If it's wrong we can change it back.

    You seem not to be interested about the mod at all instead of this silly argument about a banner. If you think a banner makes the whole mod invalid please feel free to stop commenting on the forum.

    We need people to help us out not complaining about minor things.

  5. #185

    Default Re: Bosnian Church & Bosnia Discussions (all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    Wallachian said it all. Stop talking about fictional history that has nothing to do with the mod.

  6. #186
    Svir@c's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: Bosnian Church & Bosnia Discussions (all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    Quote Originally Posted by Belgrado View Post
    Wallachian said it all. Stop talking about fictional history that has nothing to do with the mod.
    Now is the right time to say one of mine favourite qoutes (especially for the people who are Not from the Balkan, just to do the justice of understanding it-them) by little altering it:
    "Do not stand between the arguing Serb-Croat-Bosnian etc.(whatever) and his standing point!"
    Sorry to quote you, mate

    One of the Tzardom team members mentions som flying saucerers, namely, Ufo-s, and can't we really have this-them!? That would be Uber cool and awesome ... please ... ?!

  7. #187
    Wallachian's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Bosnian Church & Bosnia Discussions (all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    Ok that's it thread closed. When people start posting images of Yugoslav wars military parades we have an issue which goes way beyond medieval modding.

  8. #188

    Default Re: Tsardoms Total War - General Discussion & Progress

    Hello Guys,

    I see you are doing a great job. I was wondering if you took into consideration my writing of some months ago and came to this thread. Unfortunately I saw the Bosnian soldiers with the non existing Bosnian banner. I was a bit rude may be and I apologize for this; but I really hope that you will make the Bosnian banners historically correct. I see that the work is really good.

    I want to show to you the statue which has been made by the Montenegrians in honour of the Bosnian king Tvrtko I Kotromanic. He founded their city of Herceg Novi so this nation decided to make a statue for him. At the opening of this statue also very clearly the flag of the Bosnian kingdom has been shown (pay attention to the upper right part of the picture):
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 






    Also the soldiers at the ceremony wear at their shields the weapon of the bosnian kingdom. You can see this same banner in the back too as the only banner. The banner of the Bosnian crown is a made up banner and has never been used by anyone during the Bosnian medieval period. I hope you will change this really! So there is a difference between the crown on the head of the kings which was the crown with the fleur de lilles but the weapon is the blue shield with 6 fleur des lilles.

    All the best,

    Bosnian _King
    Last edited by Bosnian_King; April 29, 2017 at 04:34 PM.
    kada se bjehmo svadili, tada nas Stjepan Rajkovic umiri i da nam nas grad Bobovac, a neda ga dati Ugrom.

    "And when we were in a quarrel between each other; Stijepan Rajkovic calmed us down. And we entrusted our capital of Bobovac to him after which he defended it against the Hungarians (King Tvrtko I Kotromanic 1366.)"

  9. #189

    Default Re: Tsardoms Total War - General Discussion & Progress



    Nikola Ilocki the last(nominal) king of bosnia and he alsov had that coat
    Katarina Kosaca had the same on her grave stone




    Lilicum vas only used by Kotromanicsas the family crescent all the non Kotromanic rulers used the crown cuz the crown simbolizes the land aroud river bosnia,gegrafic bosnia!

    Bosnian "Kings" never used any coat of arms for the "bosnian kingdom" cuz de jure it didnt existed.Look at this seal it is from a Kotromanic King


    It has the lilicum for the family coat but it has alsov the serbian coat of arms cuz they crovned themself with the serbian crown,Tvrtko vas originaly a ban who conqered a part of serbia and used and older titel(king of rascia) wich vas not used by the real ruler of serbia(tsar at that time) cuz he didnt want to ofend that ruler,so Tvrtko legalized his personal state stitched together out of:bosnia,herzegovina,usora and soli banate,dalmatia,rascia(NOT BOSNIA)
    Last edited by thekingsmen; April 29, 2017 at 08:49 PM.

  10. #190
    Wallachian's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Tsardoms Total War - General Discussion & Progress

    We have already changed that coat of arms as you suggested a long time ago Bosnian King so it is all sorted and agreed. So no need for any further discussions on that matter.

    Also, some heraldry held by some modern day people at a statue reveal is definitely not a source.

  11. #191

    Default Re: Tsardoms Total War - General Discussion & Progress

    Quote Originally Posted by thekingsmen View Post


    Nikola Ilocki the last(nominal) king of bosnia and he alsov had that coat
    Katarina Kosaca had the same on her grave stone




    Lilicum vas only used by Kotromanicsas the family crescent all the non Kotromanic rulers used the crown cuz the crown simbolizes the land aroud river bosnia,gegrafic bosnia!

    Bosnian "Kings" never used any coat of arms for the "bosnian kingdom" cuz de jure it didnt existed.Look at this seal it is from a Kotromanic King


    It has the lilicum for the family coat but it has alsov the serbian coat of arms cuz they crovned themself with the serbian crown,Tvrtko vas originaly a ban who conqered a part of serbia and used and older titel(king of rascia) wich vas not used by the real ruler of serbia(tsar at that time) cuz he didnt want to ofend that ruler,so Tvrtko legalized his personal state stitched together out of:bosnia,herzegovina,usora and soli banate,dalmatia,rascia(NOT BOSNIA)
    Thank you for your great effort Kingsman! Let me respond to you quicly. Nikola Ilocki is not a Bosnian king from the Kotromanic dynasty. This is a king of one of the Hungarian puppet states after the fall of the Bosnian kingdom. The king by that time was killed already and the Queen in Rome.

    I totally agree with what you said. The crown has been used as one of the simbols that represents the "kings land". This is the land around today's Bobovac, Visoko, Zenica, Kakanj. But this was only like 20% of the Bosnian kingdom. This crown was used also on the stone decoration on the grave of Tomasevic. But for the weapon of the kingdom; never this crown has been used. I mean for the weapon of all the Bosnian lands together (The whole kingdom).

    We can see it from all the stamps of the different kings : Tvrtko:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    King Dabisa:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Coin of the last Bosnian king Tomasevic:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Coin of the first Bosnian king:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Last edited by Bosnian_King; April 30, 2017 at 04:49 AM.
    kada se bjehmo svadili, tada nas Stjepan Rajkovic umiri i da nam nas grad Bobovac, a neda ga dati Ugrom.

    "And when we were in a quarrel between each other; Stijepan Rajkovic calmed us down. And we entrusted our capital of Bobovac to him after which he defended it against the Hungarians (King Tvrtko I Kotromanic 1366.)"

  12. #192

    Default Re: Tsardoms Total War - General Discussion & Progress

    Quote Originally Posted by Wallachian View Post
    We have already changed that coat of arms as you suggested a long time ago Bosnian King so it is all sorted and agreed. So no need for any further discussions on that matter.

    Also, some heraldry held by some modern day people at a statue reveal is definitely not a source.
    Thanks Wallachian!

    I am really looking forward to see some pictures of those Bosnian units with their banners. I waited so long for this moment.

    All te best!

    BK
    kada se bjehmo svadili, tada nas Stjepan Rajkovic umiri i da nam nas grad Bobovac, a neda ga dati Ugrom.

    "And when we were in a quarrel between each other; Stijepan Rajkovic calmed us down. And we entrusted our capital of Bobovac to him after which he defended it against the Hungarians (King Tvrtko I Kotromanic 1366.)"

  13. #193

    Default Re: Tsardoms Total War - General Discussion & Progress

    NOUP not the kings land but bosnia i know ciz im from "bobovac" LOL
    It is Tvrtkos kingdom and not Bosnian kingdom,Tvrtkos title vas king of rascia,bosnia,hum and dalmatia then later he changed it to king of serbia,croatia.......

    Dude that is the point Nikola vas not a Kotromanic therfore that coat must be the symbol for bosnia and the same goes for the Kosaca qeen she used it asvel and only the Kotromanics used the lilicum cuz it vas a family coat as for the state coat of arms well...


  14. #194

    Default Re: Tsardoms Total War - General Discussion & Progress

    There is nothing on Bobovac so you can not be from Bobovac. Bobovac is an abandoned city high in the mountains. The crown has never been the banner of whole the kingdom. The crown simbolized the state just like in any other kingdom. In a broader way it symbolized the "kings land" and his insitutes. The bodyguards of the king may have been carrying this COA of the crown; we do not know it.

    All the Bosnian kings (all of them) have on their official stamps from that time the 6 fleur des lilles. This is why the Bosnian historians in 1992. decided to implement this weapon as the banner for the Republic of Bosnia and Hercegovina. The 6 fleur des lilles are also present on all the coins of King Tvrtko I Kotromanic, King Tvrtko II, King Ostoja, Dabisa, Ostojic, Tomas and Tomasevic. There has never been a discussion among Yugoslav historians if this COA has or has not been the COA of the Bosnian kingdom.

    A lot more heraldic symbols we van find on the grafes of the Bosnian kings. For example the dragon with the crown on the grafe of Tvrtko II Kotromanic and on his coin, we can find the lion on every coin (the lion was the symbol of the Kotroanic dynasty). But it does not mean that those symbols represented the kingdom. The kingdom was represented by this symbol:



    The Kotromanic dynasty was represented by this symbol (The family not the kingdom!):



    Nikola was not a Bosnian king. This is a total different state. He was given the title of the "king of Bosnia" by the Hungarian kings after the fall of the Bosnian kingdom. This means that he was given the region of Bosnia after the state of Bosnia stopped to exist. Besides this small state also 4 other states were created on the teritory of the fallen Bosnian kingdom. It was done by the Hungarians as a buffer towards the Turks. But this has NOTHING to do with the Bosnian kingdom. This were small Hungo-Croatian kingdoms and no Bosnian ever ruled over them but Croats or Hungarians!



    Quote Originally Posted by thekingsmen View Post
    NOUP not the kings land but bosnia i know ciz im from "bobovac" LOL
    It is Tvrtkos kingdom and not Bosnian kingdom,Tvrtkos title vas king of rascia,bosnia,hum and dalmatia then later he changed it to king of serbia,croatia.......

    Dude that is the point Nikola vas not a Kotromanic therfore that coat must be the symbol for bosnia and the same goes for the Kosaca qeen she used it asvel and only the Kotromanics used the lilicum cuz it vas a family coat as for the state coat of arms well...

    kada se bjehmo svadili, tada nas Stjepan Rajkovic umiri i da nam nas grad Bobovac, a neda ga dati Ugrom.

    "And when we were in a quarrel between each other; Stijepan Rajkovic calmed us down. And we entrusted our capital of Bobovac to him after which he defended it against the Hungarians (King Tvrtko I Kotromanic 1366.)"

  15. #195

    Default Re: Tsardoms Total War - General Discussion & Progress



    This is one of the vew preserved pictures of a Bosnian knight. Nada Klaic, a Croat historian and profesor has incorporated it in het book about medieval Bosnia. May be you can use it? It is really rare. I just recently found it. The drawing must be more than 600 years old.

    I am so sad that I was not able to show this old painting earlier to you. I was busy with work and not able to do research. But I hope you can still use this. This is really authentic and very rare. May be it is the best preserved painting about the Bosnian medieval army.
    Last edited by Bosnian_King; April 30, 2017 at 06:22 AM.
    kada se bjehmo svadili, tada nas Stjepan Rajkovic umiri i da nam nas grad Bobovac, a neda ga dati Ugrom.

    "And when we were in a quarrel between each other; Stijepan Rajkovic calmed us down. And we entrusted our capital of Bobovac to him after which he defended it against the Hungarians (King Tvrtko I Kotromanic 1366.)"

  16. #196

    Default Re: Tsardoms Total War - General Discussion & Progress

    Bobovac is the fort and the real settelment is kraljeva sutjeska and it exists under bobovac im from there!Nikola vas an nominal king of bosnia he ruled the 4 banates that were left rom the "bosnian kingdom" who were actualy croatian lands who switched their oats to the bosnian ban/kings instead to the hungarocroatian kings.
    Bosnin banate was always an hungarian vassal same as those 4 banates even when it vas a "kingdom"

    You are imposing Great bosniak ultranationalist ilusions on us instead of the oficial mainstream opinions of all sane historyans!
    http://www.encyclopedia.com/places/s...ia-and#HISTORY

    The Bosnian area between the 9th and 11th centuries was essentially under Croatian influence when not conquered by Bulgarians, Serbs, or Byzantium. After Hungary and Croatia effected their royal union in ad 1102, Hungary took over Bosnia and the Dalmatian cities in 1136. Bosnia was then ruled by Croatian "Bans" under joint Hungarian-Croatian sovereignty.
    Last edited by thekingsmen; April 30, 2017 at 07:10 AM.

  17. #197
    AnthoniusII's Avatar XXI ARMORED BRIGADE
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    Default Re: Tsardoms Total War - General Discussion & Progress

    Quote Originally Posted by Bosnian_King View Post


    This is one of the vew preserved pictures of a Bosnian knight. Nada Klaic, a Croat historian and profesor has incorporated it in het book about medieval Bosnia. May be you can use it? It is really rare. I just recently found it. The drawing must be more than 600 years old.

    I am so sad that I was not able to show this old painting earlier to you. I was busy with work and not able to do research. But I hope you can still use this. This is really authentic and very rare. May be it is the best preserved painting about the Bosnian medieval army.
    I have sent the exact horse model that could fit in this image to jurcek. All he has to do is skin the cloth that covers the horse.
    There are moments (in history), in which a nation owes,
    if it wants to be considered as a great one, to be able to fight.
    Even without hope of winning. Just because it has to.
    Greek War motto.
    XXI Armored Brigade. Proud that served in that unit in 1996!
    "Spartans do not ask how many (enemies are) but where they are"!
    XXI Armored Brigade's motto.
    The Greek Secret (or why they will fight again if it will be necessary or why they do not sell their history).


  18. #198

    Default Re: Tsardoms Total War - General Discussion & Progress

    Quote Originally Posted by Bosnian_King View Post
    There is nothing on Bobovac so you can not be from Bobovac. Bobovac is an abandoned city high in the mountains. The crown has never been the banner of whole the kingdom. The crown simbolized the state just like in any other kingdom. In a broader way it symbolized the "kings land" and his insitutes. The bodyguards of the king may have been carrying this COA of the crown; we do not know it.

    All the Bosnian kings (all of them) have on their official stamps from that time the 6 fleur des lilles. This is why the Bosnian historians in 1992. decided to implement this weapon as the banner for the Republic of Bosnia and Hercegovina. The 6 fleur des lilles are also present on all the coins of King Tvrtko I Kotromanic, King Tvrtko II, King Ostoja, Dabisa, Ostojic, Tomas and Tomasevic. There has never been a discussion among Yugoslav historians if this COA has or has not been the COA of the Bosnian kingdom.

    A lot more heraldic symbols we van find on the grafes of the Bosnian kings. For example the dragon with the crown on the grafe of Tvrtko II Kotromanic and on his coin, we can find the lion on every coin (the lion was the symbol of the Kotroanic dynasty). But it does not mean that those symbols represented the kingdom. The kingdom was represented by this symbol:



    The Kotromanic dynasty was represented by this symbol (The family not the kingdom!):



    Nikola was not a Bosnian king. This is a total different state. He was given the title of the "king of Bosnia" by the Hungarian kings after the fall of the Bosnian kingdom. This means that he was given the region of Bosnia after the state of Bosnia stopped to exist. Besides this small state also 4 other states were created on the teritory of the fallen Bosnian kingdom. It was done by the Hungarians as a buffer towards the Turks. But this has NOTHING to do with the Bosnian kingdom. This were small Hungo-Croatian kingdoms and no Bosnian ever ruled over them but Croats or Hungarians!



    Haha 'what slelector you are!
    The same source has the lilicum listed under Tvartkovich(a kotromanic patronim after Tvrtko)
    That source mentions this for the bosnian coat


  19. #199

    Default Re: Tsardoms Total War - General Discussion & Progress

    Quote Originally Posted by thekingsmen View Post


    Haha 'what slelector you are!
    The same source has the lilicum listed under Tvartkovich(a kotromanic patronim after Tvrtko)
    That source mentions this for the bosnian coat

    The Fojnicki grbovnik (the book with all the COA from the Yugoslav families) has been made after the medieval period. Not all the COA are historically correct. I totally agree with you o this point.
    But to say that they are all wrog is also totally wrong. Because we know that this lion is also present on the most of the coins of the Bosnian kings from the Kotromanic dynasty. This means that most probably this COA from the Fojnicki grbovnik IS historically correct.



    About the symbol of the Kotromanic family (the black lion) and the symbol for the Bosnian state (the six fleur des lilles); there is no discussion among the Bosnian historians. The Bosniak instite as well as the Bosnian catholic franciscans from Fojnica, Sarajevo and Kraljeva Sutjeska agree about this.

    This is why the fleur des lilles have been chosen for the symbol of the Bosnian state. All the statues which have been built for the Bosnian kings till now only have this symbol on it. It does not matter if those statues are built by Montenegrians or Bosnians. For example; the Serbian Academy of Arts designed the Montenegrian statue in Herceg Novi in honour for the Bosnian king Tvrtko I Kotromanic. But even they aknowledged that the symbol of the Bosnian kingdom has been the 6 fleur des lilles. Nada Klaic (Croat profesor), Dubravko Lovrenovic (Bosnian Croat), Ferdo Sisic (Croat historian) and Corevic (most important serbian profesor) all agree that the 6 fleur des lilles have been the symnol for the Bosnian kingdom from Tvrtko I till the end.

    But as Walahian said; this will be corrected. I thank you in anyway for the big effort you have put in this game. And I am sorry that I did not found this Bosnian medieval painting even earlier. As I said I was busy with my work and with other things. But I am very happy that finally this is coming to an end.
    kada se bjehmo svadili, tada nas Stjepan Rajkovic umiri i da nam nas grad Bobovac, a neda ga dati Ugrom.

    "And when we were in a quarrel between each other; Stijepan Rajkovic calmed us down. And we entrusted our capital of Bobovac to him after which he defended it against the Hungarians (King Tvrtko I Kotromanic 1366.)"

  20. #200

    Default Re: Tsardoms Total War - General Discussion & Progress

    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    I have sent the exact horse model that could fit in this image to jurcek. All he has to do is skin the cloth that covers the horse.
    Thanks a lot! Will we be able to see the Bosnian units? I mean more screenshots with the correct banners?
    kada se bjehmo svadili, tada nas Stjepan Rajkovic umiri i da nam nas grad Bobovac, a neda ga dati Ugrom.

    "And when we were in a quarrel between each other; Stijepan Rajkovic calmed us down. And we entrusted our capital of Bobovac to him after which he defended it against the Hungarians (King Tvrtko I Kotromanic 1366.)"

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