Bosnian Church & Bosnia Discussions (all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

[Bosnian_King]

Thats right i myself was on such a Islamic Ceremoni it was a open field prayer we prayed their islamic styl but the Imam told us that this was a Bosnian Church tradition to every year in this time period to get togheter and worship the one and only God!

It was on the Platou Lasterevica, Kakanj Zeneica! Ther is also such a thing on the Montain Ajatovica wher the Bosnian Muslims do such a thing! It is a Open Fild Islamic Prayer but a Bosnian Church Tradition.

http://commondatastorage.googleapis....al/6407170.jpg

Islam dosent forbid such Kultural Traditions it invite us to keep it going because Kultur is very important for Human Identity.

This has nothing to do with the topic. If you got some practical info, pics etc. you are welcome. Talking about Ajatovici is not usefull.

[Bosnian_King]

man that in Jajce is catholic church, krstjani were never in great numbers in city of Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić

that tower is called Tower of St. Luka

According to Lovrenovic Krcani had the monopoly in Jajce. He is a modern Croatian historian.

[Hrobatos]

and he bases his theory according to...what?

I dont care who made the theory, but on what proofs he made it, names are irrelevant.

[Baron Vlad Felix]

[QUOTE=Bosnian_King;7588229]

Are you serious?

very serious.....is catholic church.
In Dalmatia exist many such a churches with tower.

[phoenix[illusion]]

I don't think that the bosnian chrscani were against material things. Bogomils were against material things and they teached people that everybody was bad from inside.

Bosnian christians were no Bogumils. That is modern Bosniak propaganda. I am a Bosniak but I know that this is nonsense. The Bosnian church was a political institute at the first place with political power; tax raising; good organisation and a very detailed hierarchy and very very close connections with the crown.

You should read the book from Lovrenovic:"The holy Bosnian and the holy hungarian crown." From that book he concludes that it is alsost certain that the Bosnian church crowned the first Bosnian king with the crown which Tvrtko calls later the "Bosnian crown".

Now how can a church whith so much power and influance build churches from wood? It can't be true. And only because we can not find much remainings of those churches it does not mean that there were no stone churches! There were but they were transformed into mosques, catholic churches or orthodox churches or just destroyed. Because nobody used those churches after 1460. All the bosnian church leaders were killed or expelled to Dubrovnik by our last king.

I respect your effort a lot and your persistence but I really think that it is wrong to conclude such things.

well, i wouldn't agree, by text that i've read, krstjani were against marriage, cause it was a sin, made from god. so if someone wanted to be pravi krstjanin (real kritjanin (christian)), he should abandoned marriage, and live with his wife as brother, but vjernici (believers) had rights to have children, but their faith was "not too strong" as real krtjani's. also they had almost everyday feast. they were very fanatical christians

[Bosnian_King]

and he bases his theory according to...what?

I dont care who made the theory, but on what proofs he made it, names are irrelevant.

He concludes this because this is what the sources tell us. In all the document of the Bosnian kings and bans only the bosnian church is mentioned. Never the catholic church. The bosnian church had the right to be present at the meeting of the bosnian stanak and to decide about important things together with the nobled and kings; the catholic church not.

A modern historian can conclude a lot about the position of the bosnian church within the state. Thats what Lovrenovic did. He analysed all the documents which mentioned the bosnian church. Like this one:

ISPRAVA RAJKOVICIMA IZ 1366 GODINE - KRALJ TVRTKO

Az rab Bozji i svetoga Grgure, a zovom gospodin Ban Tvrtko, po milosti Bozjoj gospodin mnogim Zemljam Bosanskim,gospodin Bosanski,i srbski,i solski,i podrinski i mnogim stranam Bosanskim. Pravi gospodin Ban Tvrtko: kada se bjehmo svadili, tada nas Stjepan Rajkovic umiri i da nam nas grad Bobovac, a neda ga dati Ugrom.

I za tu sluzbu dasmo mu Cuklje u Lasve, i dasmo mu Klopc u Brode i dasmo mu Brlosnik na Uzore Vlsi. I hvala njinju, stavlajemo u vijeki amen. I s timi vasemi predasmo ga u vjeru djedinju i vse Crkve Bosanske . I vse krstjane da mu je ruka. I da mu se ne more
svrci vjera krstjanska ni za jedin uzrok.... I da mu se tam njegov dlg nepohudobi nikadar.

I sto ga ne sudi Djed s dva Strojnika s njim. ..... I da ne suzanj nikadar dokle je korijen u Bosne Crkve Bozje. Da o tom ima crkva stati.

A tomu svjedoci Dobri Bošnjane : Vojevoda Vlkac, Zupan Crnul, Knez Bogad, Tepcic Belhan, Knez Branko Prinic, Knez Slado

[Grof]

In Dalmatia exist many such a churches with tower.

Yea I have to say when I looked at that picture and saw that tower the first thought that came to my head was that it was catholic.

Its very similar to this below

[Hrobatos]

its a catholic church, I'v been there, seen it, its a ctholic church, well its left overs

and im not even sure when it was builded...

[Bosnian_King]

[QUOTE=Baron Vlad Felix;7588311]

very serious.....is catholic church.
In Dalmatia exist many such a churches with tower.

And how you do know that a Bosnian church also had not such a tower?

And ok may be you are right. But why does fine puts this church at the cover of his book? Because he made a mistake? He is not an amateur historian but a profesor!

And now I am really curious about how a bosnian church looked like. I would really like to know that.

[Matthæus]

Crkva svete Marije / toranj svetog Luke
read the description of the object:

http://kons.gov.ba/main.php?id_struc...n=view&id=1316
http://www.crkvajajce.org/samostan.php?p=6

in 15th century it was a typical catholic church.

there is a difference between a church (building) in Bosnia (an a geographical term) and church in which Krstjani had their liturgy.

[Grof]

And how you do know that a Bosnian church also had not such a tower?

Building styles are our main indication of the century the building was constructed and also the styles. If you look at a Catholic church in Bosna and a Orthodox one they are much much different even tho they are are built in the same area and around the same time.
The church on his cover is very much a catholic style church. Maybe there was some small Krscani church there before with this one built on top of it but thats a catholic church no doubt.

[Baron Vlad Felix]

[QUOTE=Bosnian_King;7588467]

And how you do know that a Bosnian church also had not such a tower?

Because in Dalmatia,exist older Catolic church(with tower) than when the kritjani lived!

[phoenix[illusion]]

@bosnian_king

well, that is catholic church, it is also that shaped. bosnian church probably didn't have that kind of churches, cause of their beliefs in first place, and second, catholic churches were financed by the pope, and bosnian church hadn't have such a power, nor the fortune. so i believe that that churches were more wooden or simple stone like. stecci is good example of bosnian church, it was made out of stone blocks, with simple art

[Matthæus]

bosnian king - you mention fine and lovrencic if you ave those books send them to me. i had it but lost due to format disc

PS
bell tower of jajce church - no misery here stonemasons were "imported" from dalmatia to do the job. obviously architect too

[Baron Vlad Felix]

@bosnian_king

well, that is catholic church, it is also that shaped. bosnian church probably didn't have that kind of churches, cause of their beliefs in first place, and second, catholic churches were financed by the pope, and bosnian church hadn't have such a power, nor the fortune. so i believe that that churches were more wooden or simple stone like. stecci is good example of bosnian church, it was made out of stone blocks, with simple art

Correct.......even there is no evidence that they had a church!

[Bosnian_King]

bosnian king - you mention fine and lovrencic if you ave those books send them to me. i had it but lost due to format disc

PS
bell tower of jajce church - no misery here stonemasons were "imported" from dalmatia to do the job. obviously architect too

I got he book of Dubracko Lovrenovic and I bought this book in Sarajevo for about 70 euros. I will send it to you. How do you want it by quick car or by plane?

Sorry man but I can't send it. It is too heavy; 750 pages. But it is a beautifull book to read for us who love history. And the holidays are coming so I will order some good books to read. I will read probably this book from Fine about the bosnian church and may be of Srecko M Dzaja about the bosnian church. If i get to know something I will let you know.

As I said; I am not a gamer and I do not play computer games but I am more interesting in this game from an historian perspective. It would be nice if the bosnian church (if we can find one) can be reconstructed in this game. Because that's what made Bosnia unique right- it's church.

[Bosnian_King]

Correct.......even there is no evidence that they had a church!

Yes there is evidence. There is also clear evidence that such churches existed at the capital Bobovac because they were mentioned. Those churches were mentioned more than 50 times by the bosnian state documents.


"Crkve Bosancke kuce bozije" : "The bosnian church; the house of god" etc. etc. No doubt that they had churches only how the looked like I don't know yet.

[phoenix[illusion]]

Yes there is evidence. There is also clear evidence that such churches existed at the capital Bobovac because they were mentioned. Those churches were mentioned more than 50 times by the bosnian state documents.


"Crkve Bosancke kuce bozije" : "The bosnian church; the house of god" etc. etc. No doubt that they had churches only how the looked like I don't know yet.

well, we can't be sure that that could be a good source, it can be mentioned as every churches in bosnia, bosnia's churches, all churches that are in bosnia, not just bosnian church as stand-alone church. it's a bit different writing in middle ages than today, and not to talk about nation and religion. not like today, not like we know

and it could be translated like "Churches of Bosnia, houses of God"

[Baron Vlad Felix]

Yes there is evidence. There is also clear evidence that such churches existed at the capital Bobovac because they were mentioned. Those churches were mentioned more than 50 times by the bosnian state documents.


"Crkve Bosancke kuce bozije" : "The bosnian church; the house of god" etc. etc. No doubt that they had churches only how the looked like I don't know yet.

Ok,I really do not know if kritjani have church, because I did not see anywhere evidence......I know kritjani exist in bosna, there are graves and records about them.But Bosnian Church and the Bosnian people did not exist at that time(Bosnia was only name of the territory), they were Serbs, Croats and heretic religious refugees(bogomili,katari..) from south balkan.......

[Bosnian_King]

well, we can't be sure that that could be a good source, it can be mentioned as every churches in bosnia, bosnia's churches, all churches that are in bosnia, not just bosnian church as stand-alone church. it's a bit different writing in middle ages than today, and not to talk about nation and religion. not like today, not like we know

and it could be translated like "Churches of Bosnia, houses of God"

No no. That can't be. All the historians agree with it that all those document by the "Bosnian church" the bosnian kscan church was meant. Because if such a document says for example:

"And we converted him to the faith of the Djed and the whole Bosnian church." then there can not be any doubt. Because we know that catholics had no Djed. Their highest church leader was the pope. And also the fact that those documents are talking about "Krstcani" and the ""krstjan faith" is a proof (if there are proofs needed but there are not because it is obvious); or "And may the Djed judge over him together with two strojniks". Is is clear that it is about the bosnian church. And those documents also tell for example:"the roots of Bosnia; the gods church" which is off course the Bosnian church because that''s where the whole document is about. So only one document gives so mych information.