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Thread: Bosnian Church & Bosnia Discussions (all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

  1. #1

    Default Bosnian Church & Bosnia Discussions (all off topic posts will be deleted and their authors court-martialed)

    Hello everyone,

    This thread is about the Bosnian church. If you got some reliable information which can be useful; I would like to ask you to post it here.

    Here are some things. When I got more time I will find more;



    Translation:

    DJED CRKVE BOSANSKE = Grandfather of Bosnian Church
    VELIKI GOST = Big Guest
    VELIKI STARAC = Big Ancient
    GOSTI - APOSTOLI = Guests - Apostles
    KRSTJANI I KRSTJANICE = Male & Female Christians
    POSTNICI I OCENASCI = Fasteners & Our fathers
    VJERNICI = Believers
    TUMAC = Legend
    POSTANAK = Promotion
    VLAST = Authorities
    REDJENICI = Ordainees
    Some pictures from the Hvalov Zbornik- a book of the Bosnian church:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    This are most likely remainings of Bosnian church churrhcs:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Last edited by Bosnian_King; June 25, 2010 at 10:19 AM.
    kada se bjehmo svadili, tada nas Stjepan Rajkovic umiri i da nam nas grad Bobovac, a neda ga dati Ugrom.

    "And when we were in a quarrel between each other; Stijepan Rajkovic calmed us down. And we entrusted our capital of Bobovac to him after which he defended it against the Hungarians (King Tvrtko I Kotromanic 1366.)"

  2. #2
    Matthæus's Avatar Knez Bribirski
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    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska

    do not turn this topic about origin of Bosnian people. this is not about that but about practical questions about church ant its organization.

    don't make me delete posts !

  3. #3
    2Shy's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska

    Bosnian King post some of the great ceremonial stones (if I can remamaber thay were near the graves in the cemetries ).


  4. #4
    Matthæus's Avatar Knez Bribirski
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    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska

    be serious Bosnian_King - Sv. Spas near Cetina ?
    that has nothing to do with Krstjani. i will take the liberty to remove these pictures.

    anyway i will a close attention on this thread to avoid any off-topic debates
    Last edited by Matthæus; June 25, 2010 at 10:02 AM.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska

    Quote Originally Posted by matko View Post
    be serious Bosnian_King - Sv. Spas near Cetina ?
    that has nothing to do with Krstjani.

    Yes you are right. My mistake. I did not read good enough on the site from which I got those pics.

    But this could be the remainings of a real Bosnian krstjan church:


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    It is the cover of the book from John Fine about the Bosnian church. So may be you can use this or even read this book. I am sure that by a little bit research you will find out how a bosnian church looked like! This book is a good suggestion. So if anybody got this book in PDF or something; post it here!
    Last edited by Bosnian_King; June 25, 2010 at 10:14 AM.
    kada se bjehmo svadili, tada nas Stjepan Rajkovic umiri i da nam nas grad Bobovac, a neda ga dati Ugrom.

    "And when we were in a quarrel between each other; Stijepan Rajkovic calmed us down. And we entrusted our capital of Bobovac to him after which he defended it against the Hungarians (King Tvrtko I Kotromanic 1366.)"

  6. #6
    Grof's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska

    Quote Originally Posted by AlShareefBOSNA View Post
    Did i post something historicly incorrect? Or Political Incorrect?
    You called Serbs and Croats, extremists. Aint that the pot calling the kettle black.

    You also brought in the disputed history of Bosnia in which in these forums creates allot of problems. Maybe your a noob but thats why the post got deleted.
    Last edited by Matthæus; June 25, 2010 at 10:34 AM. Reason: off topic

    Христе Боже распети и свети, Српска земља кроз облаке лети. Лети преко небеских висина, Крила су јој Морава и Дрина.
    На три свето и на три саставно,Одлазимо на Косово равно.
    Кад је драга да одлазим чула,За ревер ми невен заденула.
    Збогом први нерођени сине, Збогом ружо, збогом рузмарине. Збогом лето, јесени и зимо. Одлазимо да их победимо.
    March 24, 1999 - June 11, 1999


  7. #7

    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska

    Quote Originally Posted by AlShareefBOSNA View Post
    I say Extremists! I never called ALL Serbians or Corats Extremists thats BS! Ther are Extremists Bosnians too! I just wanted to say whit that that extremism is stupid no matter who it is and that this was a proof against it nothing more.
    Stop this off topic please guys!!!! Not every theme about Bosnia should be closed because of off topics and "forum wars".

    You Bosnian guy and you serbian guy: please stop this duscussion here. And I would like to ask the admins to delete all the off topic posts immediately.
    kada se bjehmo svadili, tada nas Stjepan Rajkovic umiri i da nam nas grad Bobovac, a neda ga dati Ugrom.

    "And when we were in a quarrel between each other; Stijepan Rajkovic calmed us down. And we entrusted our capital of Bobovac to him after which he defended it against the Hungarians (King Tvrtko I Kotromanic 1366.)"

  8. #8
    Matthæus's Avatar Knez Bribirski
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    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska

    Quote Originally Posted by Bosnian_King View Post
    Yes you are right. My mistake. I did not read good enough on the site from which I got those pics.

    But this could be the remainings of a real Bosnian krstjan church:


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    It is the cover of the book from John Fine about the Bosnian church. So may be you can use this or even read this book. I am sure that by a little bit research you will find out how a bosnian church looked like! This book is a good suggestion. So if anybody got this book in PDF or something; post it here!
    this is Jajce. well it is the right period, it is in Bosnia. church itself is catholic, but i will place it under consideration. lets see what else will you dig up.

    PS
    Sv.Spas - it is clearly from 11tc century or earlier. but there was an opinion that it was built by Tvrtko I, or that it was orthodox church from 14th century. booth are proven wrong. remains of decorations inside church are made of trefoil "pleter" which tells us everything. i have seen it with my own eyes. and there are inscriptions of old-Slavic names in round glagolic letter. no further comment is needed.

    OFF TOPIC POSTS ARE DELETED. no offense guys, but i want this thread clear.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska

    Quote Originally Posted by Grof View Post
    Well you used all 3 in the same sentence which might suggest something. But if you really want to know why it was deleted look at the post Matko made or just ask him. He has seen many threads get out of hand in this forum because of that stuff so you cant blame the guy.
    No i dont blame him! Maybe your right its my first Post in Medieval II Total War didnt know that.

    Im most active in Empire Total War Theards!!

    No matther Admin should delte these off topics!!!

  10. #10
    Matthæus's Avatar Knez Bribirski
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    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska

    you were not out of line, but you were off topic. post like that would bring tons of other off topic posts about "true origin" of every nation in x-Yugoslavia.

    this is the end of discussion.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska

    Quote Originally Posted by matko View Post
    this is Jajce. well it is the right period, it is in Bosnia. church itself is catholic, but i will place it under consideration. lets see what else will you dig up.

    PS
    Sv.Spas - it is clearly from 11tc century or earlier. but there was an opinion that it was built by Tvrtko I, or that it was orthodox church from 14th century. booth are proven wrong. remains of decorations inside church are made of trefoil "pleter" which tells us everything. i have seen it with my own eyes. and there are inscriptions of old-Slavic names in round glagolic letter. no further comment is needed.
    Ok it could be. I already thought that this church from the cover was the old church of Jajce. But may be in the book of Fine there are more pics? I know that Mavre Orbini (a historian who lived in -correct me if I am wrong- 17. century )wrote:

    "The bosnian churches are situated in isolated valeys far from the main roads."

    It is difficult to find a Bosnian church! I think that many of those churches are transformated in mosques or catholic or orthodox churches in the centuries after the fall of Bosnia. But I will try to find one for you!
    kada se bjehmo svadili, tada nas Stjepan Rajkovic umiri i da nam nas grad Bobovac, a neda ga dati Ugrom.

    "And when we were in a quarrel between each other; Stijepan Rajkovic calmed us down. And we entrusted our capital of Bobovac to him after which he defended it against the Hungarians (King Tvrtko I Kotromanic 1366.)"

  12. #12
    phoenix[illusion]'s Avatar Palman Bracht
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    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska

    all nationalist from both side, stop! this is medieval period, do not mix it with nowadays history. in that time, bosnian church was main church in bosnia, and stjepan kotromanic was part of it
    long time no see, but still twc drug kickin'
    check out Tsardoms: Total War!
    Under patronage of respectable Annaeus
    Patron of honorable Giacomo Colonna


  13. #13

    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska

    Quote Originally Posted by Bosnian_King View Post
    Ok it could be. I already thought that this church from the cover was the old church of Jajce. But may be in the book of Fine there are more pics? I know that Mavre Orbini (a historian who lived in -correct me if I am wrong- 17. century )wrote:

    "The bosnian churches are situated in isolated valeys far from the main roads."

    It is difficult to find a Bosnian church! I think that many of those churches are transformated in mosques or catholic or orthodox churches in the centuries after the fall of Bosnia. But I will try to find one for you!

    http://www.interliber.com/catlistdet...tID=47320&ml=b

  14. #14

    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska

    And by the way. How sure are you matko that the church from the cover of John Fine was a catholic church?




    I don't know much about it but as an amateur I ask myself a logical question:

    1) John Fine is a serious historian; why did he use this church for the cover of his book about the Bosnian church?

    2) This church was situated in Jajce where, according towards Dubravko Lovrenovic, the bosnian church had its monopoly.

    I am sure that you know much more about this than I do but I think that this church from the cover of Fine's book should be researched. What does Fine himself for example writes about this?

    And we should not forget that already before the fall of Bosnia; the Bosnian king destroyed the Bosnian church in the hope that the would get help from the Pope. It is possible that already then some churches were transformated in catholic ones. I don't know but we need some research. And some practical information right?
    Last edited by Bosnian_King; June 25, 2010 at 11:05 AM.
    kada se bjehmo svadili, tada nas Stjepan Rajkovic umiri i da nam nas grad Bobovac, a neda ga dati Ugrom.

    "And when we were in a quarrel between each other; Stijepan Rajkovic calmed us down. And we entrusted our capital of Bobovac to him after which he defended it against the Hungarians (King Tvrtko I Kotromanic 1366.)"

  15. #15
    phoenix[illusion]'s Avatar Palman Bracht
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    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska

    i wouldn't go for churches like catholic or orthodox, cause faith of krstijani was against any churches, material things, so their churches were more like wooden barracks, or some open-field prayer.
    long time no see, but still twc drug kickin'
    check out Tsardoms: Total War!
    Under patronage of respectable Annaeus
    Patron of honorable Giacomo Colonna


  16. #16

    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska

    Quote Originally Posted by phoenix[illusion] View Post
    i wouldn't go for churches like catholic or orthodox, cause faith of krstijani was against any churches, material things, so their churches were more like wooden barracks, or some open-field prayer.
    I don't think that the bosnian chrscani were against material things. Bogomils were against material things and they teached people that everybody was bad from inside.

    Bosnian christians were no Bogumils. That is modern Bosniak propaganda. I am a Bosniak but I know that this is nonsense. The Bosnian church was a political institute at the first place with political power; tax raising; good organisation and a very detailed hierarchy and very very close connections with the crown.

    You should read the book from Lovrenovic:"The holy Bosnian and the holy hungarian crown." From that book he concludes that it is alsost certain that the Bosnian church crowned the first Bosnian king with the crown which Tvrtko calls later the "Bosnian crown".

    Now how can a church whith so much power and influance build churches from wood? It can't be true. And only because we can not find much remainings of those churches it does not mean that there were no stone churches! There were but they were transformed into mosques, catholic churches or orthodox churches or just destroyed. Because nobody used those churches after 1460. All the bosnian church leaders were killed or expelled to Dubrovnik by our last king.

    I respect your effort a lot and your persistence but I really think that it is wrong to conclude such things.
    Last edited by Bosnian_King; June 25, 2010 at 11:17 AM.
    kada se bjehmo svadili, tada nas Stjepan Rajkovic umiri i da nam nas grad Bobovac, a neda ga dati Ugrom.

    "And when we were in a quarrel between each other; Stijepan Rajkovic calmed us down. And we entrusted our capital of Bobovac to him after which he defended it against the Hungarians (King Tvrtko I Kotromanic 1366.)"

  17. #17

    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska

    Quote Originally Posted by phoenix[illusion] View Post
    i wouldn't go for churches like catholic or orthodox, cause faith of krstijani was against any churches, material things, so their churches were more like wooden barracks, or some open-field prayer.
    Thats right i myself was on such a Islamic Ceremoni it was a open field prayer we prayed their islamic styl but the Imam told us that this was a Bosnian Church tradition to every year in this time period to get togheter and worship the one and only God!

    It was on the Platou Lasterevica, Kakanj Zeneica! Ther is also such a thing on the Montain Ajatovica wher the Bosnian Muslims do such a thing! It is a Open Fild Islamic Prayer but a Bosnian Church Tradition.

    http://commondatastorage.googleapis....al/6407170.jpg

    Islam dosent forbid such Kultural Traditions it invite us to keep it going because Kultur is very important for Human Identity.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska

    [QUOTE=Bosnian_King;7587710]

    But this could be the remainings of a real Bosnian krstjan church:


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    this is a typical catolic church!
    I think that,in Bosnia the majority were Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches.The krstjani live mostly in central Bosnia,but they were minorities.Catholic church declared them heretics,and they disappeared very quickly.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska

    [QUOTE=Baron Vlad Felix;7588197]
    Quote Originally Posted by Bosnian_King View Post

    But this could be the remainings of a real Bosnian krstjan church:


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    this is a typical catolic church!
    I think that,in Bosnia the majority were Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches.The krstjani live mostly in central Bosnia,but they were minorities.Catholic church declared them heretics,and they disappeared very quickly.


    Are you serious?
    kada se bjehmo svadili, tada nas Stjepan Rajkovic umiri i da nam nas grad Bobovac, a neda ga dati Ugrom.

    "And when we were in a quarrel between each other; Stijepan Rajkovic calmed us down. And we entrusted our capital of Bobovac to him after which he defended it against the Hungarians (King Tvrtko I Kotromanic 1366.)"

  20. #20
    Hrobatos's Avatar Tribunus
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    Default Re: Bosnian Church - Crkva Bosanska

    man that in Jajce is catholic church, krstjani were never in great numbers in city of Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić

    that tower in church is called Tower of St. Luka

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