Curia Hostilia - Consulate of Annalis and Celer

[RVFVS]

ooc: censorial censure, that's a -7 in dignitas AND gravitas isn't it?

OOC: Yup...so I assume this goes towards Rhadamanthus then?

[Winter]

ooc: 7 or 8 to both, I believe. It depends what Chaplain has in mind for Pallas; if he is going away when Rhad gets back, then it goes to Rhad, but if he wants to develop Pallas further then it goes to Pallas.

"Consul, I believe that you seek the best for the Roman people, but your zealousness in pursuing this goal has lead you to utterly undignified behavior. You just accused a Proconsul of Rome of plotting treason because he asked for a few ships to protect his province! And do you not see how protesting endlessly that you have been insulted, as a CONSUL of Rome, is not utterly unbecoming of a Roman in any circumstance, especially in this Senate House? You are blinded, Consul, and you would due well to use this lesson to help you see."

[chaplain118]

ooc: Pallas is just an auxiliary to Rhadamanthus when he's abroad, so it's going to Rhadamanthus.


Pallas looked at the Censor and nodded, accepting his verdict like a true Roman and sat down

ooc: wait, do we have to leave with censure or is that only nota censura?

[Winter]

ooc: No you stay, but I can bar you from the Curia for 24 hours which I alluded to in my post.

[RVFVS]

ooc: 7 or 8 to both, I believe. It depends what Chaplain has in mind for Pallas; if he is going away when Rhad gets back, then it goes to Rhad, but if he wants to develop Pallas further then it goes to Pallas.

"Consul, I believe that you seek the best for the Roman people, but your zealousness in pursuing this goal has lead you to utterly undignified behavior. You just accused a Proconsul of Rome of plotting treason because he asked for a few ships to protect his province! And do you not see how protesting endlessly that you have been insulted, as a CONSUL of Rome, is not utterly unbecoming of a Roman in any circumstance, especially in this Senate House? You are blinded, Consul, and you would due well to use this lesson to help you see."

Celer sat back. He understood...the Censor was with Rhadamanthus.

"I accused him of desiring ships so he could ferry his soldiers over to Italy and take Rome by force if aristocrats didn't gain control next year. I accused him of PLOTTING to destroy the Republic. I dread the day when a man cannot refute a person who publicly insults his honour just as publicly, it seems that day has come. I accept your descision, Censor, but I hope that you understand that you may have just killed the Republic. Regardless, Senator Triarius' motion is still to be voted on."

Celer sat back, not defeated, suprised.

[chaplain118]

Consul,

Rhadamanthus did not ask for these ships. The propraetor of Sicily asked for them to ferry the Sicilian legion to Melite, as per relayed to us by Rhadamanthus. In this respect, the Proconsul was only a messenger. As for the proconsul asking for ships, it is Proconsul Severus who is in the most dire need of them, reminding both this house that he lacks the ability to construct any warships and that to effectively begin a war-harbor project would be far too costly not monetary-wise but strategically.

An accusation of treason from these simple demands is, and I think the majority of this house will agree, excessive.

[RVFVS]

Consul,

Rhadamanthus did not ask for these ships. The propraetor of Sicily asked for them to ferry the Sicilian legion to Melite, as per relayed to us by Rhadamanthus. In this respect, the Proconsul was only a messenger. As for the proconsul asking for ships, it is Proconsul Severus who is in the most dire need of them, reminding both this house that he lacks the ability to construct any warships and that to effectively begin a war-harbor project would be far too costly not monetary-wise but strategically.

An accusation of treason from these simple demands is, and I think the majority of this house will agree, excessive.

Celer sighed. He rubbed his eyes.

"Senator, if you wish to have this bill voted upon make it into a bill. I do not believe the Senator currently needs the fleet as he has not yet been attacked by the Greek ships and he has the means to contruct his own fleet in a few years. What you keep forgetting is that Italy too needs defence and without any fleet in it's defence I cannot vote in favour of giving the fleet over to the Proconsul. Now, I would vote for a proposal that simply shipped the legions over to the specified areas then returned to defend Italy but not one that permenently grants the fleet over to Severus."

[chaplain118]

It is not a matter of defense but a matter of troop logistics. Let us consider the current stipulations that are being put forth regarding the arrangement of troops abroad:

2 legions are to be sent to Macedonia and Asia. We have a fleet of biremes docked just outside of Tarentum that can easily ferry the legions across and then take up safe harbor in one of our western Greek holdings for the remainder of the season before sending the second legion over to Asia. This will take us half a year. Or we can approach this with what the Consul has suggested: that the legions can walk to their destined lands.

Consul, I do not know if you have noticed, but we do not control all of the Adriatic Sea. The Ilyrians still hold a sizable tract of land between Patavium and Salona. That will be land that our legions will be crossing over. We can ill afford to provoke anyone into war, especially considering our own internal problems which you yourself seemed to have been lamenting at the start of this year. If a war does break out, then the two legions promised to Macedonia and Asia that would have been marching overland will then be used to engage the enemy rather than to go to the governors as originally intended. In addition to that, it would not be a justified war, entirely provoked by us and could have been totally avoided. Do you think the people would stand for that?

The Proconsul has written about the size of the Greek fleet, to even imagine that our small flotilla of ships can withstand an assault with the Greek fleet is ludicrous. We can hardly afford an engagement against the Greek fleet let alone use our navy for any measurable defense.

Finally, I only asked that the proconsul be lent use of the fleet. Even the tribune seemed to agree, but the consul has repeated his belief that the legions can simply walk to Asia. I have presented my points against what Consul Celer has suggested, and this is how the case shall rest before the Senate.

[RVFVS]

It is not a matter of defense but a matter of troop logistics. Let us consider the current stipulations that are being put forth regarding the arrangement of troops abroad:

2 legions are to be sent to Macedonia and Asia. We have a fleet of biremes docked just outside of Tarentum that can easily ferry the legions across and then take up safe harbor in one of our western Greek holdings for the remainder of the season before sending the second legion over to Asia. This will take us half a year. Or we can approach this with what the Consul has suggested: that the legions can walk to their destined lands.

Consul, I do not know if you have noticed, but we do not control all of the Adriatic Sea. The Ilyrians still hold a sizable tract of land between Patavium and Salona. That will be land that our legions will be crossing over. We can ill afford to provoke anyone into war, especially considering our own internal problems which you yourself seemed to have been lamenting at the start of this year. If a war does break out, then the two legions promised to Macedonia and Asia that would have been marching overland will then be used to engage the enemy rather than to go to the governors as originally intended. In addition to that, it would not be a justified war, entirely provoked by us and could have been totally avoided. Do you think the people would stand for that?

The Proconsul has written about the size of the Greek fleet, to even imagine that our small flotilla of ships can withstand an assault with the Greek fleet is ludicrous. We can hardly afford an engagement against the Greek fleet let alone use our navy for any measurable defense.

Finally, I only asked that the proconsul be lent use of the fleet. Even the tribune seemed to agree, but the consul has repeated his belief that the legions can simply walk to Asia. I have presented my points against what Consul Celer has suggested, and this is how the case shall rest before the Senate.

"The Tribune says that the ships should be lent temporarily to the Proconsul, I support that measure Senator."

[chaplain118]

Then so be it.

Pallas leaned back in his chair. He did what needed to be done.

[Raglan]

ooo, i seem to have missed a good one while i was sleeping.

ic; Lucius Primus sat though out the exchange feeling shamed. He'd had a feeling that an alliance with Celer would lead to something like this. Though he felt irritated at being discribed as Celers Tribune. He would not have vetoed such a motion. Some things should be left to the senate to decide. Standing now he watched while the two factions quieted down, glaring at each other.

I am NOT a slave of the Consul, and will not be vetoing anything. Though i am embarrised by this house today. What has it achieved? What great and noble deeds will you go home and tell your wives about?

Todays session has truely been pathetic. And i support the Censor in his actions, now let us move back to buisness. The Pro-Consul of the East has asked for ships, and after all this arguing, everyone seems to believe that my original idea was a good one. So let us STOP arguing and vote on it. I raise the motion,

1- ships in Tarrentum are to be sent to the East.

2- they are to remain there for four years. After which they will return to Rome and the Senate.

I say four because that is what Senator Pellas said. That is your number, not ours.

Now i shall include one last point, since the Consul seems so concerned.

3- the ships shall not be used to transport legions to Rome, UNLESS by the command of the Senate.

[ulti]

Quintillius gritted his teeth. He likes Celer, but not his recent anger. Once they had finished debating he rose.

"My fellow Senators. I have finally decided upon the building plans for Italy, and also have, regretably, decided on the tax rates across Italy."

His assistant then hands out copies of his bill for Italia.

Budget for the Italian Peninsula

1. In both Rhegium and Paestium a Rus, costing 2600 each, shall be constructed.
2. In Croton, a Fodina, costing 2000 shall be built.
3. And in Genua, a Centuriato, costing 3500 shall be built.
4. This is a total of 10 700 Denarii to be spent.

The Quaestor also recommends that the following tax rates be imposed, regrettably.

A Very High tax rate shall be imposed in Roma, Capua, Ancone, Arretium, Genua and Croton.
A High tax rate in Bononia, Mediolandium and Corfinium
A Normal tax in Poestium, Torentum and Rhegium.
A Low taxe in both Ariminum and Patavium.

These taxes should be imposed for one term, on a trial to see if this alleviates the current loss that may occur.

"Senators, I do not wish to have such high tax rates, but I feel it necessary to do so, at least for now. I hope you understand."

[Raglan]

Nay, Quaestor, amend it in Rome. What use is an Empire if Rome has to pay high. Ensure that Romes taxes are low, and i shall second it, but I warn you now, i shall veto those taxes in Rome should you insist.

[ulti]

He thinks for a while, before scratching something and then adding something. He hands it to Primus.

"Is that better? I understand your point, perhaps I was too hasty in my decision."

Budget for the Italian Peninsula

1. In both Rhegium and Paestium a Rus, costing 2600 each, shall be constructed.
2. In Croton, a Fodina, costing 2000 shall be built.
3. And in Genua, a Centuriato, costing 3500 shall be built.
4. This is a total of 10 700 Denarii to be spent.

The Quaestor also recommends that the following tax rates be imposed, regrettably.

A Very High tax rate shall be imposed in Capua, Ancone, Arretium, Genua and Croton.
A High tax rate in Bononia, Mediolandium and Corfinium
A Normal tax in Poestium, Torentum and Rhegium.
A Low tax in Roma, Ariminum and Patavium.

These taxes should be imposed for one term, on a trial to see if this alleviates the current loss that may occur.

[Raglan]

I am happy with the change.

[ulti]

"Then shall you have the honor of seconding it?"

[Ozy]

I second it. I will move it to vote immediately.

[Raglan]

I shall second it.

[Elendil of Númenor]

"And I shall second Marcelinus's motion about the ships. I daresay it isn't the best option, but it is good enough. Put it to vote."

[Ozy]

Then we shall vote on it as well.