Curia Hostilia - Consulate of Annalis and Celer

[ulti]

"I would in fact go further, and say that they would be allowed in to the city by express permission of the Military Tribune, or when excepted by a Senate meeting for an event such as a trimuph. This would make it a lot easier for them to get in, but still with the general idea of it as it would only be for special events. That way it takes the workload of the military tribune if hundreds of legionares or auxiliaries want to return to the event."

[chaplain118]

In the events of a triumph. We offer triumphs to a general at the end of his campaign. If I recall, Scipio Africanus took sixteen years before he finished his campaign. Also bear in mind that when a soldier steps into the bounds of the pomerium, he surrenders his status as a soldier and becomes a citizen once more. I am willing to change the clause to

"VI. Enlisted men who return within the bounds of the Pomerium during their period of enlistment without permission from the Senate, regardless of occasion, automatically forfeit their promised reward at the end of service. Should they want to obtain those rewards, they must re-enlist for another full term of service."

And there you have it. The triumphal procession ends at the beginning of the Pomerium anyways. It is the Senate who grants commanders the rights to a triumph. And as military tribunes are not enlisted men but commissioned officers, they may still enter the city and deliver news to the Curia. I think on that, we can agree to the terms of this proposal.

Now then, Senators, I shall be departing for Africa soon. I hope the sun there will do some wonders for my skin.

A few chuckles went up, and Nisus turned from the Curia and disappeared into the city.

[Elendil of Númenor]

Severus rose.

"I believe, with Senator Palinurus's little correction, the Consuls should put that bill to vote. Furthermore, I would ask the Quaestor to allow the governors 30000 denarii for the East and 40000 for the West. 30000 will be quite enough to maintain Italy and Rome. That would be a balanced budget. Now, if you forgive me, Senators, I shall take my leave and depart for Asia."

He turned in the doorway.

"Oh and Senators... We may be leaving for two years, but that doesn't mean we aren't watching. Do not forget - the gods reward those who are to be rewarded - and deliver just punishment upon those who deserve to be punished. Farewell, 'Conscript Fathers'."

[Ozy]

"Same goes to you, senator," said Herrenius with a smirk. A little hesitant, especially due to the fact that Rhadamanthus was the one supporting the bill, he continued to speak.

"Well, senators. I think I will move the motion to vote now. If you'll excuse me, I'll go and finish my report on our military."

Saying that, he left the room.

[RVFVS]

Celer stood.

"The bill will be put to vote but I wish to change a few things...

Lex Celeris de Agro Rei Publicae

I. Legionary service shall be increased from 16 to 20 years
II. Each enlisted man is allotted ten square acres of land in the regions ratified by the Senate AFTER they completing a FULL term of service
III. Each enlisted man is allotted whatever he has taken during plunder in addition to whatever his commander has given him from said plunder
IV. The state shall fund for all legionary equipment
V. Each enlisted man is to pledge his allegiance for life to the Senate and the Commander who is a representitive of the Senate
VI. VI. Enlisted men who return within the bounds of the Pomerium during their period of enlistment without permission from the Senate, regardless of occasion, automatically forfeit their promised reward at the end of service. Should they want to obtain those rewards, they must re-enlist for another full term of service.
VII. A man may continue serving in the legion for an additional 5 years after his mandatory 20. At the end of those 5 additional years, he is eligible for five acres of fertile land in Italy in conjunction with his ten acres abroad.
VIII. Those who have settled abroad after their service length has been finished are still eligible to be recalled into service for the remainder of their lives should the occasion arise as per the pledge of allegiance for life to the Senate.
IX. All citizens, regardless of rank or ownership of land, may join the legions and be eligable for all of the above.

Study the changes I have made and you will see they are proper and correct."

[Raglan]

I would also like to see a chance as to the returning to Rome. I very much feel it should be possible. But that it should be restricted. I emplore the Senate to consider again the idea of permission having to be given by a military tribune. If the senate feels that another such offical should have the say, then i will conceed that. But the option must be there. What if Gods forgive the north was over run by gauls, should the southern legions refuse to march to our aid as they fear they will forfit their dues because of it? I could i expect come up with a dozen senarios where it would be needed. Let us be cautious rather than sorrowful.

[chaplain118]

A Patrician senator, Pallas Aventinus Cato, stood up in the back, clearly annoyed at what Celer was attempting to do.

Consul, your colleague has already begun the process of moving the bill to a vote, to change the content of the bill would be fruitless now. Also, land ownership for enlistment was considered obsolete by the reforms of laws of Gaius Marius. Surely a man as caring of the people as you should've already known that.

If you wish to propose your changes, then you should ask your tribune to veto this bill. But we wouldn't want to look like the hypocrite that Proconsul Rhadamanthus made you out to be, now would we, Consul?

As for your proposal, tribune, Rhadamanthus' amendment to the bill before Consul Annalis went to put it to vote mentioned that no soldier may set foot in the POMERIUM. If the North is overrun by the Gauls, the southern legions can still move their way to the north by means of the Italian mainland, as they would have to surrender their right to arms anyways upon crossing the threshold of the Pomerium.

ooc: this will be my character who ONLY SPEAKS IN THE CURIA in my absence as proconsul. He will NOT make speeches, nor will he vote. He's just here to make your lives annoying.

On another note: PALLAS IS BACK

[RVFVS]

A Patrician senator, Pallas Aventinus Cato, stood up in the back, clearly annoyed at what Celer was attempting to do.

Consul, your colleague has already begun the process of moving the bill to a vote, to change the content of the bill would be fruitless now. Also, land ownership for enlistment was considered obsolete by the reforms of laws of Gaius Marius. Surely a man as caring of the people as you should've already known that.

If you wish to propose your changes, then you should ask your tribune to veto this bill. But we wouldn't want to look like the hypocrite that Proconsul Rhadamanthus made you out to be, now would we, Consul?

As for your proposal, tribune, Rhadamanthus' amendment to the bill before Consul Annalis went to put it to vote mentioned that no soldier may set foot in the POMERIUM. If the North is overrun by the Gauls, the southern legions can still move their way to the north by means of the Italian mainland, as they would have to surrender their right to arms anyways upon crossing the threshold of the Pomerium.

ooc: this will be my character who ONLY SPEAKS IN THE CURIA in my absence as proconsul. He will NOT make speeches, nor will he vote. He's just here to make your lives annoying.

On another note: PALLAS IS BACK

"Senator, first you will not speak to the Consul of the Roman people in that tone."

Celer looked unflinchingly at the young upstart.

"Second, the voting process has not yet begun and will not begin until all debate is over."

He stood.

"Finally, while you are correct in that Marius disbanded the land requirement the bills he passed never stated they were to be given the things stated in my bill thus I will restate it accordingly. Now..."

Celer adjusted his toga.

"I already told you that I will not tolerate such disrespect! Understand this, slave of Palinurus, you will not disrupt matters of the state simply due to your impudence and at the behest of your master! If that freak of a Senator Palinurus wishes to address this Senate tell him to send a letter, otherwise be silent!"

Celer addressed Primus.

"We have no need of soldiers entering Rome if a soldier MUST enter Rome the Senate can ratify such a descision. I will now put the bill up to vote."

[chaplain118]

Listen to him, Senators. He speaks to us as if he were a king. Not willing to listen to the opinions of others, not willing to accept criticism. Almost as if he were a fragile glass ornament, meant to be a thing beheld in people's eyes rather than an actual object of use.

Tell me, esteemed consul, just how is it disrupting state affairs if a man simply brought up the issue of obeying the law when it comes to passing motions? Our laws do not allow you to modify the contents of a bill after your fellow colleague has seen fit to put it to vote. Therefore what made you think that YOU could do that? The mob isn't here in the Senate house to bay your name like a pack of mad dogs, so I suggest you drop your pretense and speak to us plainly about your intentions.

You say that the voting process has not begun, well let me consult your scribe shall we? Ah yes, right here, about a day ago:

Consul Annalis has said:

Well, senators. I think I will move the motion to vote now. If you'll excuse me, I'll go and finish my report on our military

Hmm, seems to me that debate on this particular bill IS over. And if it isn't for your own overzealousness in promoting your name among the mob, then I daresay your time for additional dictations to the Senate is over. So unless you would like to propose a NEW bill in place of this and have our HONORABLE tribune veto the current bill, which bears your name, mind you, then I suggest you do that. But until then, let me remind you that NO man stands above the law, be he a consul or not.

[RVFVS]

Listen to him, Senators. He speaks to us as if he were a king. Not willing to listen to the opinions of others, not willing to accept criticism. Almost as if he were a fragile glass ornament, meant to be a thing beheld in people's eyes rather than an actual object of use.

Tell me, esteemed consul, just how is it disrupting state affairs if a man simply brought up the issue of obeying the law when it comes to passing motions? Our laws do not allow you to modify the contents of a bill after your fellow colleague has seen fit to put it to vote. Therefore what made you think that YOU could do that? The mob isn't here in the Senate house to bay your name like a pack of mad dogs, so I suggest you drop your pretense and speak to us plainly about your intentions.

You say that the voting process has not begun, well let me consult your scribe shall we? Ah yes, right here, about a day ago:

Consul Annalis has said:



Hmm, seems to me that debate on this particular bill IS over. And if it isn't for your own overzealousness in promoting your name among the mob, then I daresay your time for additional dictations to the Senate is over. So unless you would like to propose a NEW bill in place of this and have our HONORABLE tribune veto the current bill, which bears your name, mind you, then I suggest you do that. But until then, let me remind you that NO man stands above the law, be he a consul or not.

Celer was visibly angry now and he stood.

"No! The Consul has not put it up for vote therefore the debate is not over! The house has not begun to divide! My collegue SUGGESTED we begin to vote in which I presented my amended version of the bill."

Celer slammed his hand on his chair.

"I will NOT play games with you, Pallas!"

Celer spit out the name. He calms down and simply smiles cooly.

"If I were King, conscript fathers, I would have this bastard executed on the spot. But I am not King and I have allowed you to speak."

Celer sat and then said one more thing before demanding a division.

"Disrupting is by definition to cause disorder and confusion. Something you are doing a good job of by changing the subject from matters of STATE to me and my consulship! NOW BE SILENT!"

Celer rubbed his eyes.

"This house will now vote."

[Ozy]

Annalis looks at the debate from a corner, his report in hand. He could move the motion, but somehow found the discussion far too entertaining...

[RVFVS]

Annalis looks at the debate from a corner, his report in hand. He could move the motion, but somehow found the discussion far too entertaining...

Celer notices Annalis and beckons him forward.

"Consul please come forth and submit your report. We will not allow the ramblings of a certain fool Senator to disrupt public business."

[chaplain118]

Excuse me, consul, but I do believe your colleague said that he WILL MOVE the motion to vote rather than that he SUGGESTS it to be moved to vote. I, and almost all other senators, take his use of the definitive future tense as indicative of his decision to move the bill to the vote as he felt all necessary measures have been taken to discuss its merits. So please, consul, do observe proper protocol, lest some enterprising senator would make an off chance remark about your direct antagonism towards our laws among the mob.

Please, try to keep your animus calm. We wouldn't want you to suffer a stroke while on our watch, now would we? That would seem almost convenient, the consul adored, for now, by the people dies of a stroke within a few days of taking office. Ah, how the crowd would love it.

Pallas winked at Celer

And please, don't blame your fellow colleague for the responsibilities that you have not yet taken up. He is busy writing up a military report for Italy. And I think you should put up the bill that had been SECONDED by this august body for vote. After all, your current version received no second. And thus the first version is the valid one.

I would hope that the Censor will eventually make a stand for this bewildered action on part of our esteemed consul.

Oh, and your threat, Celer, means nothing. The curia stands within the pomerium. Any man bearing weapons here commits blasphemy and is subject to death on the spot. Even Tarquin the proud, chief tyrant of Rome, obeyed that law.

[RVFVS]

Excuse me, consul, but I do believe your colleague said that he WILL MOVE the motion to vote rather than that he SUGGESTS it to be moved to vote. I, and almost all other senators, take his use of the definitive future tense as indicative of his decision to move the bill to the vote as he felt all necessary measures have been taken to discuss its merits. So please, consul, do observe proper protocol, lest some enterprising senator would make an off chance remark about your direct antagonism towards our laws among the mob.

Please, try to keep your animus calm. We wouldn't want you to suffer a stroke while on our watch, now would we? That would seem almost convenient, the consul adored, for now, by the people dies of a stroke within a few days of taking office. Ah, how the crowd would love it.

Pallas winked at Celer

And please, don't blame your fellow colleague for the responsibilities that you have not yet taken up. He is busy writing up a military report for Italy. And I think you should put up the bill that had been SECONDED by this august body for vote. After all, your current version received no second. And thus the first version is the valid one.

I would hope that the Censor will eventually make a stand for this bewildered action on part of our esteemed consul.

Oh, and your threat, Celer, means nothing. The curia stands within the pomerium. Any man bearing weapons here commits blasphemy and is subject to death on the spot. Even Tarquin the proud, chief tyrant of Rome, obeyed that law.

"Shut up and sit down or you will be removed."

Celer motioned to his co-consul.

"You may make your report."

[Ozy]

"IN all of that I must agree with Pallas, quite a large knowledge of the law, senator," he says, nodding with approval. "The motion has been debated and seconded, while the one you put to vote was not even seconded, let alone debated. We cannot jump over our laws, especially ones in our rank, Julius! I will now move the motion before this conflict escalates into something bigger."

[chaplain118]

Removed? You're no Censor, you can't eject me from the house. And if you do so, I would hope that some senator who still respects the laws, who still hold our Republic's interest at heart would make some kind of stand against this madness.

As for your bill, let me be the first to say this about clause V, about the allegiance. Why pledge it to a commander who is a representative of the Senate? Is the senate not enough? I believe that this clause is simply your own way of having a personal legion that would pledge allegiance to you. After all, any man can say he is a representative of the Senate. And if you do pass this. Then the African legions would have to pledge their loyalty to Rhadamanthus and the Senate. Which means, that man whom you dislike so much will have two legions at his disposal against you if he so wishes.

As I have heard no second among the floor, I believe the topic is still open for discussion.

[RVFVS]

"I said that a Senator who disrupts will be removed. But if you wish to discuss instead of try and undermine me I am willing. Yes, Rhadamanthus will have two legions at his disposal. If he wishes to march on Rome he may. If he wishes to set a precedent that has never been set he may. But do NOT threaten this house Senator! Why do I wish this? I already said why. Soldiers will fight better if they feel a unique bond with their commander. Marius showed this when his soldiers swore oaths of loyalty to him."

Celer stood and pointed his arm out toward Primus.

"Besides Tribune Primus will second my motion. Isn't that right Tribune."

[chaplain118]

He'd have to veto the first one. The one that bears your name, and its content being all attributed to you, as Rhadamanthus himself have said.

The debate on the floor is in regards to the current version that YOU have brought up. This is the version that has not been seconded nor mentioned to be voted upon by your colleague.

[Ozy]

Senator your ammendments may still be passed regardless of the success of the first law. We have discussed it for a long enough time and I, A Consul, think that it has been debated and supported enough to move it to vote!

Annalis prepares his report, as he expects a response from his colleague...

[RVFVS]

OOC: look at my edit...

"And I, a Consul, wish to pass the bill as a whole not put it in piece by piece. And Pallas I can amend my bill. Rhadamanthus changed pieces of the bill anyway not to my specifications. I amended it as I liked it."

Celer sat.