Swords for cavalry?

[Zippy]

Is there a specific reason why the secondary weapons were removed from most of the cavalry units in ExRM? Is it a balancing reason or what? I noticed that if you modify the edu to include a secondary weapon it will be used by that unit in combat, so if there is a technical reason for it to be removed can one of the developers/someone in the know clue me in please?

[Caesar Augustus]

I don't know the specifics but I assume the secondary weapon didn't work with the new models or something of that nature. Alternatively it could be to encourage more historical cavalry usage.

[Quinn Inuit]

Um...actually, it's because I could never get it to work. Apparently I just don't want long enough for them to switch weapons or something, because everyone else who tries it says it works. We'll have to enable it in the next version.

[Caesar Augustus]

Ooops

Should hoplites have swords as secondary weapons too?

[Mogan]

In reality they used swords, but the game treats them like crap then, and the hoplites will once again be unusable on walls (unless we boost their sword attack insanely).

[Caesar Augustus]

Ah right. Hoplites own own on wall assualts because the unit splits in half when charged from the other side.

[mcantu]

only the player can have cav use the secondary weapon (when implemented on the model and EDU, DMB). if you alt-right click from outside of the charge range, the cav will charge with the primary weapon then switch to the secondary when the charge bonus runs out. the AI however will not switch to the secondary at all. apparently this is fixed in M2TW...

[Zippy]

Err... I don't get it. I added a sword to the ptolemaic generals bodyguard, and it works, so is there some reason why it wasn't implemented for the other cavalry units? And whats this about the hoplites on walls not working? they don't attack or something if they have swords? I haven't tried adding swords to other units yet tho. And this thing about the hoplites is it because of the phalanx formation or what? I noticed that the hoplite units are in a fixed phalanx formation so is that the problem?

[mcantu]

Err... I don't get it. I added a sword to the ptolemaic generals bodyguard, and it works, so is there some reason why it wasn't implemented for the other cavalry units? And whats this about the hoplites on walls not working? they don't attack or something if they have swords? I haven't tried adding swords to other units yet tho. And this thing about the hoplites is it because of the phalanx formation or what? I noticed that the hoplite units are in a fixed phalanx formation so is that the problem?

its an old RTW bug in the overarm spear animation that keeps a primary melee weapon from working right when there are 2 melee weapons used

[Zippy]

??? lol, whut? are you referring to any unit that has two melee weapons? or just the hoplites, cuz those are the only unit i can think of that uses spears overhand. if that is the case, can i just change the units to use their spears underhand like in vanilla? sure its ahistorical but i would like my hoplites to have swords anyways. The phalangites have swords, i think hoplites should too. Also concerning the phalangites, aren't their shields too big? I heard they had only small shields about a foot and a half to two feet in diameter slung from their shoulders, so why are their shields so big in game?

[Quinn Inuit]

Phalangite shields are indeed too big. That'll be fixed in the next version.

He's referring to any unit that uses the overarm spear animation.

I strongly recommend against giving hoplites swords. That only works well if you also give them short_pike phalanx, which isn't really a historically accurate formation for them. Otherwise, the hoplites switch from spears to swords almost instantly in melee, even when they're in shield_wall. It's pretty annoying. I imagine that'll happen with any spear+sword infantry unit that doesn't have a phalanx mode.

MCantu: I didn't realize that about the AI not using swords. That would explain why I've never seen it do so. In that case, I may just leave off the swords. There's no sense potentially unbalancing the auto-resolve to put in a feature that only the human player can use.

[Zippy]

I strongly recommend against giving hoplites swords. That only works well if you also give them short_pike phalanx, which isn't really a historically accurate formation for them. Otherwise, the hoplites switch from spears to swords almost instantly in melee, even when they're in shield_wall. It's pretty annoying. I imagine that'll happen with any spear+sword infantry unit that doesn't have a phalanx mode.

I'm assuming all hoplite troops have the light_spear, short_pike attributes, but none of them have the phalanx formation attribute? It seems like any short_pike unit automatically assumes a semi-phalanx, albeit one that you cant turn on or off at will.

Is there an actual in game difference that the overhand spear makes? For example, let's say i convert one hoplite unit to be just like the vanilla hoplites with the long spears, and add the phalanx formation to another unit with the short pike attribute(im assuming if i do add the phalanx formation the unit will use swords correctly?), and test them in combat against a hoplite unit with the overhand spear, is there any real difference in performance or what?

I'm willing to give my hoplites swords in exchange for a minor ahistorical discrepancy, so if there is an actual in game mechanic or other technical reason for the overhand, what is it?

[Carados]

Quinn, what about giving hoplites the actual phalanx ability? You mentioned it as a possibility a while ago and it was based off those Chaonians using their "sarissa" in an overhand animation whilst in phalanx mode (before we got rid of the revolt unit).

[Quinn Inuit]

I'm assuming all hoplite troops have the light_spear, short_pike attributes, but none of them have the phalanx formation attribute? It seems like any short_pike unit automatically assumes a semi-phalanx, albeit one that you cant turn on or off at will.

Correct.

Is there an actual in game difference that the overhand spear makes? For example, let's say i convert one hoplite unit to be just like the vanilla hoplites with the long spears, and add the phalanx formation to another unit with the short pike attribute(im assuming if i do add the phalanx formation the unit will use swords correctly?), and test them in combat against a hoplite unit with the overhand spear, is there any real difference in performance or what?

I'm willing to give my hoplites swords in exchange for a minor ahistorical discrepancy, so if there is an actual in game mechanic or other technical reason for the overhand, what is it?

There will be a difference in combat performance between the short and long spears. A unit with phalanx will use the swords correctly, but only with the underhand spear animation. I'm not sure if there's a game mechanical reason for it. It's been so long since we switched over from phalanx short_pike hoplites that I don't remember.

Quinn, what about giving hoplites the actual phalanx ability? You mentioned it as a possibility a while ago and it was based off those Chaonians using their "sarissa" in an overhand animation whilst in phalanx mode (before we got rid of the revolt unit).

The RTRPE team was very proud of getting hoplites to stop using the phalanx, IIRC, so I think there was a historical reason for it. Plus, as MCantu pointed out, if we give them the overhand spear animation, it'll mess up their secondary weapon animation.

[Mogan]

I don't think we should give the hoplites phalanx, since R:TW phalanx is based on the Macedon phalanx, not the Greek classical one (Macedonian is deeper, more spears in the front aviable for attack. Greek = 1st row use under-hand thrust, 2nd row use over-hand thrust).

[Zippy]

There will be a difference in combat performance between the short and long spears. A unit with phalanx will use the swords correctly, but only with the underhand spear animation. I'm not sure if there's a game mechanical reason for it. It's been so long since we switched over from phalanx short_pike hoplites that I don't remember.

The RTRPE team was very proud of getting hoplites to stop using the phalanx, IIRC, so I think there was a historical reason for it. Plus, as MCantu pointed out, if we give them the overhand spear animation, it'll mess up their secondary weapon animation.

Okay, so you are saying that in order to give the hoplites the ability to use swords correctly, i only need to add phalanx to the formation in the edu.
This will cause them to use the underhand animation, which has no difference in capability to the overhand animation in combat, if they are both of the short_pike variety, and that if i remove short_pike it will revert to the long spears used in vanilla RTW.
And the only reason why the overhand animation was used was for historical accuracy, correct?

[mcantu]

Okay, so you are saying that in order to give the hoplites the ability to use swords correctly, i only need to add phalanx to the formation in the edu.
This will cause them to use the underhand animation, which has no difference in capability to the overhand animation in combat, if they are both of the short_pike variety, and that if i remove short_pike it will revert to the long spears used in vanilla RTW.
And the only reason why the overhand animation was used was for historical accuracy, correct?

isn't that enough?

[Carados]

I know, but the revolt Chaonians used the sarissa, in phalanx formation, with the overhand animation. It's a moot point anyway if they don't use the swords properly.

[Zippy]

Well, as i've stated before, I'm willing to exchange historical accuracy for swords for my hoplites. But this thread was more about the lack of swords for units in general. Nevertheless, i will make the necessary changes to suit my tastes, and since i don't particularly care what my hoplites look like when killing my enemies, i'm going to give them the phalanx formation.

[Mogan]

Well, good luck! Be warned tho, hoplites perform very poor with swords, and generally unrealistic in the R:TW phalanx.