Thoughts on Roman campaign...

[rory o'kane]

Just been going through the first few turns of a M/M RSII Roman campaign on 0-turn using the Alexander .exe, and there are just one or two tweaks that I think might need to be made:
First of all, Carthage turns into a monster in Spain, by simply running forces from Africa across the landbridge by the Pillars of Hercules (read: Gibraltar), which sorta turns the whole thing into a war of attrition which reall wasn't the case of the war in the Iberian peninsula - pretty much after the capture of Carthago Nova and victory in the Battle of Ilipa by Scipio Africanus, not to mention the departure of Hannibal's brother Hasdrubal for Italy (he was killed at Metaurus when he actually got to Italy), the Carthaginian presence in Spain pretty much folded... I find wading through dozens of Carthaginian stacks to take somewhere like Numantia, which SHOULD belong to the Iberians really quite dissatisfying, as I feel compelled to give it back to the Iberians to ensure that I take provinces in a historically accurate order... I'm thinking that the land-bridge should be done away with - if Carthage wants to physically SHIP forces across to the Iberian peninsula, then great, that's fine, but it shouldn't just have a gateway to pour troops from Numidia/Mauretania (which I'm not even sure Carthage ruled at that time) into Spain to grind my legions down through a war of attrition.
That's the only major problem i Have, the rest are tweaks i might suggest to the Roman AORs in Italy, Illyria and Cisalpine Gaul.

First: Illyria, or more specifically, Dyrrhachium, has a mixture of Thraikian Psiloi and Levy Phalangites available on the third oppidum building (the one where the first troops become available). The Hellenic levy pikemen I get, but why Thrakian Psiloi? Surely they should have Illyrian Light Infantry available in Illyria instead - to be followed by Illyrian Heavy Infantry by the time I get to the Campus Martius? The two cities north of there, Salonae and Segestica, have the same Celtic units available as in Cisalpine Gaul, which strikes me as rather odd - surely you should have access to Illyrian units here instead, maybe with a smattering of Celtic units.

On to Cisalpine Gaul. Now, I've only taken Bononia, Genoa and Patavium, as Taurasia and Mediolanon are currently in Averni hands, and I don't want to start a full-scale war with them quite yet. I just notice as i built up the Oppida here, the first AOR units i get access to are Celtic Archers, and Cenomani Light Cavalry. Now, for flavour, these units are great, but they aren't exactly useful in holding the cities from which they come - perhaps allowing the recruitment of some sort of spearmen in the Gallic provinces (light spearmen or SOMETHING) would be great - in Spain i get Arrevaci (can't spell it) Spearmen, which, along with Balearic slingers, and Arrevaci Cavalry, form a nice defensive force until I can train legionnaires there (and they're useful to supplement any understrength legions in the area) - I think something similar is needed in Gallia Cisalpania too.
Other things I've noticed - Arretium and Ariminum have access to Gallic troops at the level of Campus Martius, which, i suppose makes sense. Having Cretan archers available in Cannae at the level of Campus Marius is a little odd i think - they should really be kept to the originally-Greek settlements south of Capua - Rhegion, Croton, Tarentum, and Syracuse on Sicily, of course.
Speaking of Sicily, there are no AOR units available here at all outside of Syracuse, which I can live with, since there are good mercenaries there. However, no cavalry other than Generals can be recruited on the whole of Sicily - no Equites, nadda. I think that might need to be fixed...
Oh, and one more thing. I've got Massalia to Campus Martius, and WOW, there's a lot of AOR units there, which is great, including Ligurian Cavalry. Now, I've not built up Genoa that quickly yet, it's still a Large Town, so I have no idea if this is the case, but I remember from previous versions seeing a lack of Ligurian Cavalry there, which is odd, considering Genoa is IN Liguria... so that needs confirming. Incidentally, there's no road between Genoa and Massalia, which there rather should be, as it was something of a highway by the late Republic - in fact the reason Rome went into alliance with Massalia was to get a strip of land to build a road from Italy through Transalpine Gaul to their holdings in Spain (known later as the Via Iulia) - so perhaps that could be fixed - and perhaps a similar thing could happen across the Alps to Rhaetia, Noricum (can't remember the name of the Settlement, sorry), and Gallia Lugdunensis. Obviously, these road changes (other than the one between Genua and Massalia, which might encourage the AI to go west rather than North) should be restricted to the Roman campaign only, so the AI doesn't get any funny ideas about sending troops straight north. It will, however, allow for a better reflection of the Roman highway system - as indicated by this map:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Empire_125.svg
Other than that, things are pretty good, considering. I got a bit bored of fighting Carthaginians (because I've not managed to get a campaign very far of late, so it's been Punic War after Punic War after Punic War because of new versions etc), so I've cheated my way forward a bit (just to check out the AORs as mentioned above), but the comment about Carthage still stands because it took a helluva lot of manpower and money to really give them a good kicking in the Iberian Peninsula - now they're sandwiched between the Iberians and me - especially since i've basically built a few forts near the land-bridge to keep them in Africa. Macedon has gone rather mental as well over Dyrrhachium, which has been taken then re-taken by both sides almost non-stop since the start of the campaign - rather more attacks by Macedon of late, since they've now eaten the entire Peloponnese up, and now seek to have a go at taking Illyria from me... I'm enjoying it, though, and that's what counts.


Oh, and before someone berates me for being a-historical for taking Massalia at this point in the game, to them I say, sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.

[dvk901]

Regarding the Carthaginian presence in Spain and the land bridge:

There were two major arenas of the 2nd Punic War....one in Spain, and the other involving Hannibal in Italy. The pure fact is that the arena in Italy can't be portrayed as well as one might like to portray it. It was a very dire time for the Romans, and no doubt had many people biting their nails off to the knuckles. But RTW just doesn't LET you do what history says happened. Even giving Carthage possession of Liguria is unhistorical, because it fact they burned it to the ground and killed everyone they could find. But in RTW, having possession of a region in an area is the ONLY way to entice a faction to give a hoot about any area. If they own it, or did own it, however, they will kill themselves trying to hold it or take it back.

Still, for all the revolts and stuff we've done to make the situation in Italy a dire one...it's really nothing like it really was historically.

On the otherhand, the war in Spain IS something we can make a real 'mess' for the player. Sure, we can't make it look and play historically....that was never the intention.....but we CAN make it hard and a major factor in any Roman campaign. The fact is that Spain was rich in gold and silver...Carthage knew it, and so did the Romans. So no matter how it plays out over there, it HAS to be a major bone of contention between the two factions.

As for the land bridge, that was put in on my insistence. And there extremely good reasons for this, largely based on my experience with RS1.6. In that earlier mod, you could give Carthage all the money in the world and they sucked. Indeed, no matter what I did for them, they still sucked as an AI opponent. And the major reason was that they were trapped by RTW's poor handling of naval invasions. Yes, it gets better in BI and Alex....but in RS1.6, regardless of EXE used, Carthage sucked. Period. Two of my goals for RS2 were: 1)The Romans had to be tough as nails to beat and survive a long time, and 2)Carthage had to not suck anymore in this mod.

Even after I gave them a clear way to cross into Spain, Carthage STILL sucked in this mod until I gave them ALL of the regions in North Africa. This is how stupid the AI can be in RTW. They would sit in their regions and try to fight across water and ignore the slave regions to their west which held an easy walk right into Spain! I had to give them the regions to make them even use the dang thing. BUT, the end result is that, in RS2, Carthage no longer sucks. They are a force to be contended with, and I really don't care where it is, as long as it IS.

Illyrian Light Infantry and Illyrian Heavy Infantry are available as mercenaries in Illyria. They are not recruitable by Rome because they were enemies....for a very long time. It wasn't until 168BC that the Romans finally conquered Illyria, and even then they had trouble there, even into the Imperial age. I know there are a whole lot of units that 'could' be given to the Romans, and I suppose we'll hear it upon release as people clamor for 'levy units or something to garrison towns with. But, the units we gave Rome were based on their historical use by the Romans or alliance with them....and what Tone said I could give them.
My feeling is that giving them too many units everywhere just makes it too easy to conquer, consolidate, and move on. And having a few unit available to them that aren't their own just makes them all the more precious, and creates logistical problems moving them to places where you need them.

The road along the coast....unfortunately, is impossible. Taurini is the reason. A road must go from Genoa to Taurini, and from there it has to have a way over to Massalia...thus, the pass thru the Alps. The only way to force a road would be to remove Taurini, and block that pass. RTW, after all, makes roads 'as it wishes'. It's hard to control where they go, or even see WHY it won't make one. (I have a couple areas I need to look at that are baffling me)

The reason the Cretan Archers are available in Apulia is just a 'coding shortcut' that uses an AOR for allied areas in the south.

[chaplain118]

As for giving Carthage an incentive to invade Italy, have you considered the circle of hate idea?

http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showth...rcle-of-Hatred

Basically, like the Terra Incognita idea, but put a small circle of an Italian region right beside Carthage and have that region be a victory condition for Carthage. That would motivate Carthage to capture it as it seems to be an area that is in direct contact with its home region. I think EB did something like this and it greatly increased naval invasion of a region. In this case, Italy.

This way, Carthage would continuously pour troops across the Mediterranean towards Italy and you could try and close the Spanish landbridge.

[dvk901]

As far as I can see (on their map) they did no such thing. The link you provided presents it as an idea....which, is quite clever. The problem is that the presence of such a 'spot' in someone else's backyard would first of all force RTW to draw a rather ugly spot of border colors on that spot, and also force even allied or 'at peace' factions into a 'transgression' situation or even war inadvertently just because they happened to cross that spot.

[sithlord447]

well you could put it in the mountains in italy so no one could go on it, and with no black lines indicating regions it would not look that bad

[dvk901]

True.

[rory o'kane]

All valid answers. I stand corrected. Just to double check about the lack of Equites in Sicilia? Can that at least be changed
I'm surprised at the Massalia/Genua thing - Surely since they're next-door to one another, there shouldn't be an issue? I thought if a settlement had any number of neighbours, Roads would be generated to connect them. I just assumed a few errant trees were in the way is all. that IS annoying. What about the other roads that I suggested for the Roman campaign? As far as I know, there ISN'T a road between Taurini and Massalia, even, which would be useful, as I say, in encouraging the Roman AI west into Gaul, not into Germania, in lieu of a road between Genoa and Massalia.
I'll keep my comments coming in, all the same, even if they do all get shot down.

[dvk901]

All valid answers. I stand corrected. Just to double check about the lack of Equites in Sicilia? Can that at least be changed
I'm surprised at the Massalia/Genua thing - Surely since they're next-door to one another, there shouldn't be an issue? I thought if a settlement had any number of neighbours, Roads would be generated to connect them. I just assumed a few errant trees were in the way is all. that IS annoying. What about the other roads that I suggested for the Roman campaign? As far as I know, there ISN'T a road between Taurini and Massalia, even, which would be useful, as I say, in encouraging the Roman AI west into Gaul, not into Germania, in lieu of a road between Genoa and Massalia.
I'll keep my comments coming in, all the same, even if they do all get shot down.

At one time I had Allied Equites available in Sicily. Could you perhaps find any information about what kind of cavalry Rome used in battles in Sicily?

I'll check on the road situation.

[dvk901]

You'll be happy to know that I fixed the road from Genoa to Massalia....along with several others.

[Irishguy]

Yeah! go dvk!

[rory o'kane]

YAY! What was blocking it?

[dvk901]

The dense forest at the southwestern end of the Alps were forcing RTW to try and go around them...which it refused to do. I also had to widen the area along the coast in a couple places because there wasn't enough room. So along with widening the coast and punching a path thru the dense forest..lo and behold, a road!

[sithlord447]

What other areas did you fix, as i remember asia minor had some problems too

[rory o'kane]

I remember someone saying Antioch not having roads - can this be confirmed? I'm swamped with revision at the moment, otherwise I'd check myself.

[Irishguy]

jup.... no roads (it's the only GOD DAME PLACE THAT DOESN'T HAVE VISIBLE PAVED ROADS IN MY BEAUTIFUL ROMAN EMPIRE!!!)

[sithlord447]

I believe, hope I have fixed both of them. I had a great deal of trouble with both of those cities due to, first, the detail of the map and coastlines, and second, because of mountain and low mountain ground types in map_ground_types. Basically, to resolve the issue, I had to flatten the areas around them, open up passes wider (there must be two pixels width along coasts and in passes, or between dense forest low mountain ground for a road to go thru them). Now, Bithynia is quite flat in that area, but I may have to move the port away from the city a bit.

Antioch now has roads thru the passes and to it's port, and south to the city south of it. I'm still working on this.

so he fixed it

[apple]

Yay for Dvk.

[dvk901]

I also fixed Antioch and several other places. However, though I have noted that there are a number places where roads could be.......well, let me back up here a bit. Theoretically, all things being equal, you could have roads all over the place on the map if there were no obstacles whatsoever. No mountains in the way, no rivers, no impediments to travel. I have ensured that the pathfinding in RS2 on this map is 'sufficient' to allow the travel of armies thru various passes and river fords, but there is a difference between being able to traverse a place, and build a road thru it. A one pixel wide pass is enough for an army to get thru...this is important because it prevents 'stuck armies' and helps the AI perform better. But a road significantly changes the speed at which a campaign progresses (increasing AI expansion a LOT), and it also has a profound 'hardcoded effect' on the economy. So, I don't really want to just 'blow open' the entire map to roads everywhere, because it will drastically change the balance of all the campaigns.

For example, the lack of roads to just any town or city out in the middle east allows Seleucid to survive better and longer against it's opponents because it isn't so easy to just burst straight thru into their empire. Having to go around mountains in some areas makes it harder, but not impossible, for Parthia to bite off chunks of Seleucid's possessions. So in effect, it just slows things down.

[rory o'kane]

Right, but that then means that cities are completely isolated. Plus, when I conquer them, I need to be able to build a military highway to allow my legions to march on to India, if need be! In all seriousness, I don't think completely isolating those cities is really that good an idea - they should at least have one connection to a central "arterial" road if you like that runs east-west to represent the Silk Road. That way, there's not so much a road network a la the Roman empire, as individual cities connected to a large road, which I'm pretty much certain would have been the case.

[dvk901]

Oh no, that's not what I meant. No cities are isolated. They ALL have roads now as far as I can tell. I set up a special descr_strat with all regions having a road built so I could see where the problems were. What meant was that in a 'best case' Vanilla sense, if you have a city surrounded by 5-6 six other regions, that city will have a road to every one of them, and likewise they will have one to everyone around them, like a spider web. Here's an example:



The mountains north of Armavir block a road from being made to the city north of it, so there is no direct route. The road actually goes off to the west, connects to another road, and goes thru an open pass to the west. I also fixed it so that a road goes thru the pointing hand to the east to a city over there, but nothing directly north.

Note also that there is no road to Campus Legae...even though there is a pass there. Stuff like this makes it 'less desirable' for the AI to go that way, and in fact keeps Armenia from expanding north like they shouldn't. So all cities have roads, it's just that they are more limited.