CIA 'running secret terror jails'

[Pra]

Before I post my thoughts, I want to know your ones.

CIA 'running secret terror jails'
The CIA is running a network of secret prison facilities around the world to hold high-profile terror suspects, according to a US newspaper report.
Such prisons are, or have been, located in Eastern Europe, Afghanistan and Thailand, the Washington Post claims.

It says more than 100 people have been sent to the facilities, known as "black sites", since they were set up in the wake of the 11 September attacks.

An intelligence agency spokesman told the BBC the CIA declined to comment.

Questioned about the report, White House spokesman Scott McClellan said: "I am not going into discussing any specific intelligence activities.

"I would say that the president's most important responsibility is to protect the American people. It's a responsibility he takes very seriously."

A Thai government spokesman denied playing host to secret detention facilities.

Central element

The Washington Post quotes current and former intelligence officers as saying that some top terror suspects are being held in an Eastern European country in a compound dating from Soviet times.

Its report says the covert prison system, financed by the CIA, has operated at various times in eight countries, as well as at the US naval base in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

"The hidden global internment network is a central element in the CIA's unconventional war on terrorism," the paper says.

Details of the system "are known to only a handful of officials in the United States and, usually, only to the president and a few top intelligence officers in each host country".

Almost nothing is known about who is held, the interrogation methods used, or how decisions are made about how long they are detained.

Closely guarded

The names of the Eastern European countries allegedly involved were withheld at the request of senior US officials, the Post says, for fear their disclosure could put operations at risk.

The whereabouts of high-profile terror suspects is a closely guarded secret in Washington, says the BBC's Pentagon correspondent Adam Brookes.

The fate of such men as 11 September suspect Khalid Sheikh Mohammed is simply a mystery, our correspondent says, but there has long been an assumption that they are held in secret facilities outside the US other than Guantanamo Bay.

Individuals with close links to the intelligence agencies say the US government sees a compelling case for keeping suspected al-Qaeda operatives incarcerated secretly on foreign soil.

That way the suspects are not able to contest their detention in American courts and can be interrogated over a long period, our correspondent says.

The US has in the past faced questions over its use of "rendition", a process by which terror suspects are sent for interrogation by security officials in other countries, some of which are accused of using torture.

In August, human rights group Amnesty International called on the US to reveal details of its alleged secret detention of suspects abroad.

The group highlighted the case of two Yemeni men who claimed they were held in secret, underground US jails for more than 18 months without being charged.

During that time, they say, they were tortured for four days by the Jordanian intelligence services.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/h...as/4400728.stm

Published: 2005/11/02 19:55:49 GMT

© BBC MMV

[Francisco Montana]

I would need alot more than a BBC report to make up my mind on the issue myself.

[Pra]

I think its meant to circumvent the rights of the prisoners that we grant here in America.

[Peachy Carnehan]

I need more information than is probably currently available.

[Pra]

But is it ok for America to circumvent our the rights of our criminals in such a manner; keep in mind that Al Qaeda members will be caught and aprehended, as will some innocents.

[OTZ]

But is it ok for America to circumvent our the rights of our criminals in such a manner; keep in mind that Al Qaeda members will be caught and aprehended, as will some innocents.

I object to the assumption that "some innocents" will be captured and detained in these facilities. Either way, I am all for them. I have no objections to using torture to extract intel from terrorists.

[carthage_hanibal]

sounds like the secret detention facilities i have heard about and even talked about in my debate class. basicly these detention facilities are underground in various countries around the world. physical torture is not used however they are in solitary confinement for the entire duration of their detention. one man was detained there for over 1.5years, also "western" music (not sure if they are refering to country or just western music) was piped into the cells 24 hours a day making it difficult to pray or think clearly.
personally this is wrong. what does the government need to do that they can't do at other real military prisons? possibly torture. i do know that when the government uses extraordinary rendition that most of the people rendered end up being tortured physically and mentally to the point of even death

[Empyrean]

The interrogation techniques of the CIA are available online if you wish to look for them.

A few points: Physical torture doesn't work because people will say anything to get you to stop. Pulling out fingernails and whatnot is counter-productive.

The most effective techniques involve disorienting the prisoner to the point of regression in their mental state. Feed them at random intervals, wake then up after an hour of sleep and tell them it was 8 hours, play music nonstop, deprive them of sensory input, and so on. When you finally get to the point where you ask them "The bad men made you do it, didn't they?" they'll be thrilled to tell you because they are functioning on the mental level of a child.

When people accuse the CIA of physically torturing people, I laugh that they would believe such a thing. Not because the CIA is above that kind of treatment, but because the CIA knows that physical torture produces unreliable information and there are better ways to get people to talk. Those methods are not available in the US prison system, but they are not physical torture.

[Pra]

The interrogation techniques of the CIA are available online if you wish to look for them.

A few points: Physical torture doesn't work because people will say anything to get you to stop. Pulling out fingernails and whatnot is counter-productive.

The most effective techniques involve disorienting the prisoner to the point of regression in their mental state. Feed them at random intervals, wake then up after an hour of sleep and tell them it was 8 hours, play music nonstop, deprive them of sensory input, and so on. When you finally get to the point where you ask them "The bad men made you do it, didn't they?" they'll be thrilled to tell you because they are functioning on the mental level of a child.

When people accuse the CIA of physically torturing people, I laugh that they would believe such a thing. Not because the CIA is above that kind of treatment, but because the CIA knows that physical torture produces unreliable information and there are better ways to get people to talk. Those methods are not available in the US prison system, but they are not physical torture.

I was under the impression that these torture methods are what other countries use.

[danzig]

First off it should come as no suprise to anyone that these exist, its pretty much common sense given the type of 'war' this is that they would exist...not excusing it just saying its not much of a suprise to me. That said Id want to know who is in these prisons before I pass judgement, my guess would be these are the places Khalid Mohammen, Abu Faraj al-Libbi and Ramzi Binalshibh types are beind held as the article hints. If that is the case I say...so what? These guys arent 'suspected' terrorist they ARE terrorist I have no problem what so ever with known terrorist be detained until the end of all time. This is the dirty, nasty stuff that people say oh no its so bad and horrible but like it or not it is unfortunately necessary. Khalid Mohammend is not going to be put on trial, televised on Court Tv for 1001 reason most of which Id probably agree with. The problem are the unknown detainers the ones where its not clear who they are, the people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time or the middle men simply caught up on it, those are the guys who need their rights protected (ie people at Gitmo) not the Khalid Mohammeds of the world, they deserve a faith that we are unfortunately too 'civilized' to give them.

[Erik]

This is old news, people knew America is doing this for a long time.
It's never officially confirmed because it's against international law (you aren't allowed to transfer prisoners from one country to another other than your own).
The only reason I can think off why America does it is because they don't want to have organization like the red cross and amnesty international check up on how they treat their prisoners.

About torture: maybe they don't use physical torture, maybe they do.
The US has tortured people in Abu Ghraib before, there is no way you can say they aren't doing it all the time at the secret locations.
Remember the people working in those secret prisons aren't in direct view of the US government, so even if the US government doesn't approve of it they can still do pretty much whatever they want.
And the fact they keep it all so secret is a very strong indication that they use methods they can't use even at Gitmo.

How easy is it for the US government to look the other way and let "some dispicable employees" torture people to death?
Get the info? Good.. no we don't need to know how you got it, but keep up the good work.

If other countries do this kind of things they are lables rogue states, btw.

[Tigran of Sasoun]

All i have to say is AMERICA SUCKS!!! Seriosly America is going down the drain. I live in Canada and here they have nothing but bad things to say about Armerica and Americans. EVERYONE in my college is anti-American, Anti-Bush, for good reason!!! America is an evil imperialist, hipocritical nation. In my History class, I learned that in almost every foriegn intervention America has done, they have be the evil side. Coldwar was caused by America, national movments crushed with the help of CIA, and placed dictators with human rights abuses.

America is a criminal organization that does not follow the laws it so gracefully portraise to the rest of the world. The world is not powerful enough to stand up to a dictator, and they are abusing thier power. Americans dont give a crap though, hey after all the CIA loves America and is protecting it just like the presidents.

P.S CANADA RULES U NAZI ^%*^%^*&%&*!!!!!

[SovietDoom]

All i have to say is AMERICA SUCKS!!! Seriosly America is going down the drain. I live in Canada and here they have nothing but bad things to say about Armerica and Americans. EVERYONE in my college is anti-American, Anti-Bush, for good reason!!! America is an evil imperialist, hipocritical nation. In my History class, I learned that in almost every foriegn intervention America has done, they have be the evil side. Coldwar was caused by America, national movments crushed with the help of CIA, and placed dictators with human rights abuses.

America is a criminal organization that does not follow the laws it so gracefully portraise to the rest of the world. The world is not powerful enough to stand up to a dictator, and they are abusing thier power. Americans dont give a crap though, hey after all the CIA loves America and is protecting it just like the presidents.

P.S CANADA RULES U NAZI ^%*^%^*&%&*!!!!!

You sir, can suck my giant American cock.

[Tigran of Sasoun]

You sir, can suck my giant American cock.

Uhh ok..SOVIET! wait thats tiny!

State of Colleges in Canada? Because we dont dispence propoganda and nationalistic garbage? because we tell the trueth? I guess that is the state it is in. Pretty good i guess.

Edit: Just to prove that America has done evil, hipocritica things i will post a thread about how the CIA avoids the Geneva convention and tortures suspects, being innocent or not,....... oh..... wait........

P.S CANADA RULES YOU NAZI B@#%@DS!!

[Trey]

All i have to say is AMERICA SUCKS!!! Seriosly America is going down the drain. I live in Canada and here they have nothing but bad things to say about Armerica and Americans. EVERYONE in my college is anti-American, Anti-Bush, for good reason!!! America is an evil imperialist, hipocritical nation. In my History class, I learned that in almost every foriegn intervention America has done, they have be the evil side. Coldwar was caused by America, national movments crushed with the help of CIA, and placed dictators with human rights abuses.

America is a criminal organization that does not follow the laws it so gracefully portraise to the rest of the world. The world is not powerful enough to stand up to a dictator, and they are abusing thier power. Americans dont give a crap though, hey after all the CIA loves America and is protecting it just like the presidents.

P.S CANADA RULES U NAZI ^%*^%^*&%&*!!!!!

I really hope your joking. America might be evil, but at least canada is taken seriously But to be serious, the US really isnt that bad of a superpower if you look at countries in the past (and present too) I bet you belive China is a better country (at least morally)

[PacSubCom]

I But to be serious, the US really isnt that bad of a superpower if you look at countries in the past (and present too) I bet you belive China is a better country (at least morally)

You call that serious? Are you serious? To forfeit human rights because OTHERS don't or didn't care about them too? You think that just by pointing at the biiiig baaaaad antagonistic empire-that-might-lord-over-all-of-us-if-we-aren't-"robust"-ourselves, you can all make us run for Rush Limbaugh's mommy for solace? What are you, a democrat or a ****in coward? Bohoooh! They have not signed the Geneva Accords and the Human Rights declaration, so we MUST rip it all to shreds too. So we give away our freedom to retain our freedom. So we will destroy our rights to save our rights. That's what you want to say here? Freedom is Slavery?

Fearful children, afraid of the evil terrorist? Endorsing human rights abuses and torture is no good NO MATTER WHAT. That only leads to further abuses, and the next ones abused are you. But that doesn't apply to you, you can also walk-on-water, for sure.

So onwards! Fly the flag of Pluralism and Human Rights! And when the big bad unshaved terrorist gets you, you have done your best, and you will at least die like free men! Not in the cells of the Geheime Staatspolizei!


"Come and live in this country it is really quite nice."

And in order to keep it that way, the Gulag is set up somewhere else. Simple. Simple as long as you're innocent, whatever that is.

Is this the strong America I've heard about? A government who can't help itself so it needs to trample fundamental rights? Weak! And people who think that's okay? Weak! A thousand years of enlightenment can be thrown into the gutter just by a few desperate democrats. And justice for ALL? More like justice for SOME! Is this the American dream? Just stick some elaborate virtual label to someone and he loses his humanity? And you trust a GOVERNMENT to do these kinds of things in a "just" way? What do you think the separation of powers is for? That the executive arm can imprison everyone it likes, by executive order? That's democracy basics for you. You know, that thing the president wants to spread over the planet! If that's your democracy, I'll choose Saddam. Saddam for prez! He still is, de jure, anyway. Call Tarek Aziz, call Comical Ali! Call Slobo Milosevic, and thaw out Ceausescu! Stuff his bullet holes! We set up shop in America! It is said to be so wonderful in spring!



"I have more respect for a man who lets me know where he stands, even if he is wrong, than for the one who comes up like an angel and is nothing but a devil." - X

[Pra]

All i have to say is AMERICA SUCKS!!! Seriosly America is going down the drain. I live in Canada and here they have nothing but bad things to say about Armerica and Americans. EVERYONE in my college is anti-American, Anti-Bush, for good reason!!! America is an evil imperialist, hipocritical nation. In my History class, I learned that in almost every foriegn intervention America has done, they have be the evil side. Coldwar was caused by America, national movments crushed with the help of CIA, and placed dictators with human rights abuses.

America is a criminal organization that does not follow the laws it so gracefully portraise to the rest of the world. The world is not powerful enough to stand up to a dictator, and they are abusing thier power. Americans dont give a crap though, hey after all the CIA loves America and is protecting it just like the presidents.

P.S CANADA RULES U NAZI ^%*^%^*&%&*!!!!!

Ouch; that's quite the vitriolic, yet inarticulate, denunciation of America. Keep in mind that there are people who are trying to return it to it's former glory, and bring it to the course it once had been and had thrived on. I will concede that the American Economy needs to be fixed and our debt needs to be dealt with as well; however, to denounce America as a 'criminal organization' when it is still a democracy, is, for the most part, ruled by the consent of the governed, and does advocate human rights (though America has shown some hyporcrisy in whom it choses to enforce these standards upon), is quite the overstatement.

Such generalizations rarely embody a proper analysis-and though I would agree with some of your points, your portrayal of it is in far too acerbic a light. If you really wanted to know what America was like, come live in this wonderful country; it really is quite nice.

[Nerwen Carnesîr]

All i have to say is AMERICA SUCKS!!! Seriosly America is going down the drain. I live in Canada and here they have nothing but bad things to say about Armerica and Americans. EVERYONE in my college is anti-American, Anti-Bush, for good reason!!! America is an evil imperialist, hipocritical nation. In my History class, I learned that in almost every foriegn intervention America has done, they have be the evil side. Coldwar was caused by America, national movments crushed with the help of CIA, and placed dictators with human rights abuses.

America is a criminal organization that does not follow the laws it so gracefully portraise to the rest of the world. The world is not powerful enough to stand up to a dictator, and they are abusing thier power. Americans dont give a crap though, hey after all the CIA loves America and is protecting it just like the presidents.

P.S CANADA RULES U NAZI ^%*^%^*&%&*!!!!!

How mature.

[PacSubCom]

How mature.

Tigran has just a hard time coping with the truth, like many. It is not easy to accept that all the values you consider holy are worth ****, and trampled into the dirt by grinning politicians who torture people for their newspeak 'democracy'. And then their faithful followers ...

[Francisco Montana]

Are you defining torture by putting undergarments over someone's head? I think 'torture' is a little strong in that instance.

It may not be very nice, or effective. But it's certainly not torture.