Spying Accusations: How Do We Know Which Side is Telling the Truth?

[jankren]

We keep hearing news about people imprisoned in a foreign country under the accusation of spying and then their original country will deny it claiming that they are simply civilians.

So how do we know which side is lying in such cases?

It seems to me people tend to just take sides based on their bias. People from the country of the prisoners are gonna say they are innocent while people from the other country say they are spies. But then again, governments dont admit espionage missions and government secret agents dont tell their families about their jobs.

[Emperador Carlos]

It's not hard...

Western Countries (US, Israel, UK) = Truth.

Rogue States (Iran, DPRK, Red China) = Lies

Terrorist Organizations (Hezbollah, Hamas, Free Aceh) = Lies

Freedom Fighters (US founders, Carlists, etc) = Truth

[Heavy Weapons Guy]

It's not hard...

Western Countries (US, Israel, UK) = Truth.

Rogue States (Iran, DPRK, Red China) = Lies

Terrorist Organizations (Hezbollah, Hamas, Free Aceh) = Lies

Freedom Fighters (US founders, Carlists, etc) = Truth

Since when Israel is telling truth.

[Sanguis]

Since when Israel is telling truth.

Seeing your signature, I can't take you seriously...

[Yosemite]

Seeing your signature, I can't take you seriously...

so israel is absolved of all crime and has a pass to do anything it pleases without fearing consequences?

[justicar5]

It's not hard...

Western Countries (US, Israel, UK) = Truth.

Rogue States (Iran, DPRK, Red China) = Lies

Terrorist Organizations (Hezbollah, Hamas, Free Aceh) = Lies

Freedom Fighters (US founders, Carlists, etc) = Truth

niave, everyone spies on eveyone else. The israelis using British and Irish passports still pisses me off, but you can bet they aren't the only group to do it.

[Captain Jin]

Who cares who to believe? It has nothing to do with you or any of the public. All you need to know is that every country spies on every other country. Espionage is incredibly prevalent between countries, even allies. Your commentary and everyone else opinion is superfluous. And Carlos where do you get the idea Red China is a rogue state?

[Emperador Carlos]

It's my opinion. Commies = Rogue State

[Admiral Piett]

Is this due to the captives Iran has in custody? Just think, how likely is it that some college aged hikers are undercover agents? Possible, sure; likely, no.

[jankren]

Is this due to the captives Iran has in custody? Just think, how likely is it that some college aged hikers are undercover agents? Possible, sure; likely, no.

Just now I was reading the Yahoo article on two CIA operatives who got imprisoned in China in 1952. They were 22 and 25.

[Admiral Piett]

Just now I was reading the Yahoo article on two CIA operatives who got imprisoned in China in 1952. They were 22 and 25.

Heh, that's why they don't really do it that way anymore to my knowledge.

[Captain Jin]

Just now I was reading the Yahoo article on two CIA operatives who got imprisoned in China in 1952. They were 22 and 25.

Think about how silly it is. What can a couple of young students ascertain about Iran by accidentally hiking over the border that we don't already know from something like satellite imagery?

Caelius is right about people over-thinking the espionage deal and likening it to a James Bond or Bourne movie. Field intelligence officers recruit assets that have access to information they want. Or they dupe people with access to information they want and try to pump them for information. It's not even as sly as you'd think. I've been approached by Turkmen intelligence officers, at least I'm fairly certain they were given the fact that as soon as they approached me they said I must be a Marine at the Embassy (and we know they listen to our phone calls)... then they'd drive to ask me about work, of course I never admit to being a Marine, in fact I say I do construction or something of the like and they know this isn't true and try to push it and say I'm a Marine, because they know I'm trying to avoid being talked to by them. They'll ask where I'm from, I lie, then they try to pretend like they have some connection to that city or interest there that will spark a conversation but I just walk away. Stuff like that is how people gather intelligence, just by talking to people casually.

If someone builds up a relationship with you, they can get lots of information from you over time that eventually builds up. The Russians used to use the old honey trap a lot, but not so much anymore... they used against the Marines a lot, thus the infamous case with Clayton Lonetree. But because they over played that card people are more aware. Doesn't change the fact that after doing contact reports some women Marines have been talking to have had connections to Russian intelligence services. In which case the Marine usually leaves the post. But imagine if you date a girl for seven or eight months and she just casually asks you stuff about work once a week. Every now and then you might go on a rant and over time she's going to have a strong sense of your work place, who works there and what they might do which is all interesting information for intelligence agencies. It's one of the reasons why Marines went from doing two 18 month postings on the Embassy program to three 12 month long postings, to lessen our exposure to trusting females overseas and thus compromising supposedly sensitive information. Which we could totally do without realizing it.

[persianfan247]

Caelius is right about people over-thinking the espionage deal and likening it to a James Bond or Bourne movie. Field intelligence officers recruit assets that have access to information they want. Or they dupe people with access to information they want and try to pump them for information. It's not even as sly as you'd think. I've been approached by Turkmen intelligence officers, at least I'm fairly certain they were given the fact that as soon as they approached me they said I must be a Marine at the Embassy (and we know they listen to our phone calls)... then they'd drive to ask me about work, of course I never admit to being a Marine, in fact I say I do construction or something of the like and they know this isn't true and try to push it and say I'm a Marine, because they know I'm trying to avoid being talked to by them. They'll ask where I'm from, I lie, then they try to pretend like they have some connection to that city or interest there that will spark a conversation but I just walk away. Stuff like that is how people gather intelligence, just by talking to people casually.

This reminds me of my history teacher whom visted Turkey and was deported because apparently he had been in a area he shouldn't have been in, i.e Cafe. Later his Turkish friends sent him a e-mail with a Newspaper article, that said some foreign spies had been discovered and deported and it contained a picture of himself at the top.

[pchalk]

lul i tend to disagree with that even tho i dont like commies.

[Phier]

I would think with a country like Iran, the spies won't be white kids on the boarder but any one of thousands of disaffected citizens.

[Caelius]

You guys are buying way too much into the Hollywood/James Bond portrayal of spying.

Real life espionage is no where even close to that.

So yes....most of the people jailed in a particular country (if we go by the US tourists in Iran by example) are just unlucky people caught in unfortunate circumstances who are then scapegoated to play to a domestic audience.

Actual intelligence gathering done by agencies like the CIA, KG---err FSB, MI6, and so on is accomplished via turncoats, double agents, entrapment, or people who go for the highest bidder. There's an actual term for it in the espionage world when it comes to the traditional ways in which spies get recruited: MICE (Money, Ideology, Compromise, and Ego)

The real life intelligence agent is recruited because of their access to valuable information, and practically all of them are homegrown in some way.

I really can't stress that enough.

So it's next to impossible that people accused of spying who have no real connection requiring special clearance of some kind are going to fit the bill. Besides, the vast majority of governments out there aren't going to be stupid enough to blatantly announce to the world the level of ineptness and level of compromise a foreign espionage ring has managed to infiltrate and steal their secrets.

That's if that government is smart though, which isn't always the case.

[roy34543]

You guys are buying way too much into the Hollywood/James Bond portrayal of spying.

Real life espionage is no where even close to that.

So yes....most of the people jailed in a particular country (if we go by the US tourists in Iran by example) are just unlucky people caught in unfortunate circumstances who are then scapegoated to play to a domestic audience.

Actual intelligence gathering done by agencies like the CIA, KG---err FSB, MI6, and so on is accomplished via turncoats, double agents, entrapment, or people who go for the highest bidder. There's an actual term for it in the espionage world when it comes to the traditional ways in which spies get recruited: MICE (Money, Ideology, Compromise, and Ego)

The real life intelligence agent is recruited because of their access to valuable information, and practically all of them are homegrown in some way.

I really can't stress that enough.

So it's next to impossible that people accused of spying who have no real connection requiring special clearance of some kind are going to fit the bill. Besides, the vast majority of governments out there aren't going to be stupid enough to blatantly announce to the world the level of ineptness and level of compromise a foreign espionage ring has managed to infiltrate and steal their secrets.

That's if that government is smart though, which isn't always the case.

While this is true, countries like Israel and the US definatly have operations that involve agents directly infiltrating organizations .
In other words there are "hollywood style spies"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfgang_Lotz
This one for example. Of course it usually takes the convinience of the citizen not being obviously suspect.

[Captain Jin]

While this is true, countries like Israel and the US definatly have operations that involve agents directly infiltrating organizations .
In other words there are "hollywood style spies"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfgang_Lotz
This one for example. Of course it usually takes the convinience of the citizen not being obviously suspect.

That's hardly a Hollywood style spy. In fact that's just what we were talking about. A man that befriended people who had access to information they wanted and then gathered intelligence.

No one is denying there aren't deep cover personnel, but it's not common. There was an FSB agent who had infiltrated a Chechen network and actually disabled a lot of the explosives the organization was attempting to use during the Moscow theater hostage crisis, unfortunately the police and government had no way of knowing he had done so, but nevertheless that's a more bad ass example. Still-- it's easier to leverage people that are already on the inside than it is to go all on your own. But yeah, Lotz is not a Hollywood style spy.

[roy34543]

That's hardly a Hollywood style spy. In fact that's just what we were talking about. A man that befriended people who had access to information they wanted and then gathered intelligence.

No one is denying there aren't deep cover personnel, but it's not common. There was an FSB agent who had infiltrated a Chechen network and actually disabled a lot of the explosives the organization was attempting to use during the Moscow theater hostage crisis, unfortunately the police and government had no way of knowing he had done so, but nevertheless that's a more bad ass example. Still-- it's easier to leverage people that are already on the inside than it is to go all on your own. But yeah, Lotz is not a Hollywood style spy.

But the fact is that espionage is still sometimes done with agents that come from another country, thats kind of the point. They dont rely exclusively on informants for information.

[myrmidones]

Funny subject, makes you think. Everybody's mad at Israel for copying passports etc. If they other agencies aren't doing it they suck at their job, the Israelis only problem was getting caught.