Alexander's Macedonian infantry helmet colour?

[Katsumoto]

This is probably an uber-nooby question, but I've heard that the members of the Macedonian phalanx would often have their helmets painted blue or another colour to signify their unit or something. Is this true? It seems odd to me since I've never seen it depicted anywhere and I don't think any other Greek states painted their helmet different colours...?

Any info is much appreciated since my knowledge on this topic is pretty limited.

[conon394]

This is probably an uber-nooby question, but I've heard that the members of the Macedonian phalanx would often have their helmets painted blue or another colour to signify their unit or something. Is this true? It seems odd to me since I've never seen it depicted anywhere and I don't think any other Greek states painted their helmet different colours...?

As a rule/regular practice I have never come across the suggestion. However troops did paint their helmets sometimes to avoid confusion in battle. When facing people with similar equipment and dialect for example. The example that comes to mind most readily is from Xenpohon Hell 7.5.20. The Theban Cavalry is lined up across from the Athenian and both would appear to have worn very similar kit - so the Theban's painted their helmets white.

Where did read about helmet painting?

[Katsumoto]

In the Osprey book, 'The Army of Alexander the Great'. Most of the illustrations depicted soldiers with painted helmets.

[AnthoniusII]

Macedonian army was devided in 12 parts according to the macedonian tribe they were come from .
Some historians insist that the colours of the helmets helped the warriors to find easily their units (south Greek hoplites used their shields heraldics).
The most common colours that apear in frescos are the dark blue and tyrian purple.
Purple was the official colour of the king's fammily and their most close to them warriors.
It was conecting to the royal familly of Argeiades (kings of Argos) that were conecting to most of royal fammilies in Greece ,both south -Athens-or North-Macedonian.
Argeian royal fammily had the famous sun (the one that apears to the macedonian shields)as their mark. The Athenian (yes Athens even in democracy had Kings) and Macedonian royal fammilies had the same sun as their mark.
In Phillips tomp their is a warrior that is armed as a typical "hoplite" of Macedonia (hypaspist or bodyguard). He had painted helmet with dark blue paint. Historians beleive the the "king's men" of the macedonian king ,there for his bodyguards or his main proffesional troops that answered only to him,painted their helmets blue.

[conon394]

I see

I did a bit of poking around and honestly it looks like the basis is most likely the residual traces of blue pigment on the Alexander sarcophagus on some helmets.

You can find a small picture from Museum exhibit that restored trace colors include a panel from the Alexander Sarcophagus

http://www.archaeology.org/0801/trenches/colorgods.html

The problem for Osprey is that is very little positive evidence for uniforms and such (ie a detailed Macedonia decree in stone). Rather one is left with a sporadic sample of art, a few remains and cryptic comments by historians or partial decree evidence, and a mish mash of stray references in other lit.

Here the Sarcophagus is a prime example of difficulty – the Infantry trooper’s helmet is blue but what does that mean since he is also ‘heroically’ nude? Where is the real Macedonian uniform start or end and where does the artists imagination.

Bronze helmets seem to represented on infantry as well and of course there are the lit references to gilded silver or gold items. There does seem to have been a trend in Macedonia and Greece toward more Iron or Bronze/Iron helmets in the 4th and 3rd centuries BC so its also possible painting was simply a means of preventing rust.

Edit: It also possible that blue is being used as a stand in for metallic silver or polished iron...

Other colors also exist in Macedonian Art:

Red and red stripes:
http://www.macedonian-heritage.gr/He.../img_D14g.html


Some articles I don’t have access to might answer your questions a bit better:

http://www.atypon-link.com/AV/doi/ab...klio.2009.0016
http://www.atypon-link.com/AIA/doi/a.../aja.113.3.423

-----------------------

edit:

The Athenian (yes Athens even in democracy had Kings) and Macedonian royal fammilies had the same sun as their mark.

No they didn't - what are you talking about. They had the Archon Basileus but that hardly a king or royal family and under the democracy or even the reforms of Solon it was no longer family based so had no real even nominal connection to any real or mythical Athenian royalty.

In Phillips tomp their is a warrior that is armed as a typical "hoplite" of Macedonia (hypaspist or bodyguard). He had painted helmet with dark blue paint. Historians beleive the the "king's men" of the macedonian king ,there for his bodyguards or his main proffesional troops that answered only to him, painted their helmets blue.

Still that remains thin supposition – not wrong necessarily but not based on any direct assertion.

[Katsumoto]

Yeah I found that link about the regulation helmet and uniform but like you I don't have access to it. What you said makes a lot of sense though, if the main basis is just paint on a sarcophogus then I don't think it's that accurate - surely there would be detailed accounts and all of soldiers with painted helmets and the reasons for painting them?

[hellheaven1987]

Consider the color-painting habit of other military force, it was more possible that Macedonians painted either their shield or wearing some sore of uniform, similar as Carolingian (who, depending on region, had specified color for each troop under different household or region).

[conon394]

surely there would be detailed accounts and all of soldiers with painted helmets and the reasons for painting them?

Sure there were detailed records but of course the states that kept them are all gone. That the difference between say Medieval European records vs Classical ones. The Mediaval european states were the beginning of Modern Europe so parish records and such get kept - why would say Avars care about ancient Athenian or Macedonian records on uniforms? Thus you are left with just sporadic and randomly surviving stone decrees, art and the odd refrence by historians who may or may not be interested in minute details like helmet color.

Even on the last point someone like Xenophon a professional mercenary and thoughtful commentator on military tactics is not likely to outline what color helmets were but rather just the important detail that Epaminondas took steps to avoid confusion in his army.

Consider the color-painting habit of other military force, it was more possible that Macedonians painted either their shield or wearing some sore of uniform, similar as Carolingian (who, depending on region, had specified color for each troop under different household or region).

Or not if you had no evidence of chop sticks at all - evidence by analogy might well assume the knife and fork was typical and common in China.

[hellheaven1987]

Or not if you had no evidence of chop sticks at all - evidence by analogy might well assume the knife and fork was typical and common in China.

The problem is that we don't have literature sources for the description of how Macedon units identified their units, although some units, like Sliver Shield, may be easy to identify due to their different color of shield. Overall, without a source, we can only use other armed force as example to assume how Macedonian did it.

[René Artois]

Maybe they did what the Welsh did and placed a smelly vegetable on themselves?

[Manuel I Komnenos]

Well, using colors at that age especially for a helmet was pretty costly..
Considering that the Macedonian Kingdom was responsible for supplying the armor and helmets for the Macedonian soldiers, I don't think that the Macedonian Kings would pay money for painting the helmets of some 30.000 soldiers.. The soldiers of the Greek city states were responsible to buy their own equipment so I'd expect some rich soldiers of the City states to have painted their shields or helmets with nice colors but for the Macedonian army which was pretty much homogeneous in terms of equipment I don't think that dyes were used.. As for the need for the soldiers to understand where their unit was situated, other methods were used to do that.. Probably special flags.. Also one soldier could understand where his unit was, because firstly each soldier knew most of the soldiers who belonged to his unit because all of them came from the same region or city.. And secondly the soldier was always part of the phalanx which was a stable formation and didn't split in the time of the battle so no soldier would get lost..
Anyway what's sure is that the shields (and why not the helmets) of some elite units like the Argyraspides were painted in silver color..

[Starlightman]

National Archaeological Museum of Athens: Gods In Color



I have the luck to visit this exchibition...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Since the 18th century, excavations have brought to light marble statues with traces of coloring, corroborating ancient sources which mention the existence of colored statues and architectural parts of ancient temples and tombs. Proof was further supported at the end of the 19th century, when a great number of Korai statues were unearthed from the grounds of the Acropolis of Athens.

The Korai were votive offerings to an Archaic temple dedicated to Athena Polias, located on the Acropolis Rock, and made in the second half of the 6th century B.C., most of them late in this period. When the Athenians, in 480 B.C., were forced to abandon their city before the advancing Persian threat, to better defend themselves with their fleet, the temples and everything in them were destroyed by the invaders. After the Athenian victory, they rebuilt their temples, burying the broken statues, including the Korai; thereby protecting the colors on the statues which were only subject to the powers of the elements for a few decades, so that when they were found, the coloring was obvious. (Please refer to our relevant Album on the Acropolis of Athens Museum).

An effort then began to reproduce those statues, in the form of casts, which were intended to show the color as a faithful representation of the originals. Technology of the time, though, did little to help researchers get an idea of the color which had been destroyed. Today, UV lighting and strong raking light have revealed many more details. Based on this technology and beginning in 1982, the University of Munich began researching the coloring of ancient artwork. Out of the many colored copies realized for experimental purposes, 21 casts were exhibited in the Glyptothek München in 2004, followed by exhibitions at other museums in Europe.

These casts are exactly those shown in this exhibition, with the very interesting fact that they are accompanied by 51 original artwork, property of the Museum itself. This exhibition “is extended” to the rest of the Museum’s galleries and the visitor is, with special signs, directed to more originals where traces of the original pigments have been preserved.
As said by Mr. Vinzenz Brigmann, archaeologist of the Munich Sculpture Gallery, during the exhibition’s opening ceremony, “We offer an experiment, or, still better, an approach to what the ancient coloring must have looked like applied to marble.” We are not absolutely certain that the proposed paintings, using natural pigments and binder, is a faithful reproduction of the originals. As stated by Mr. Kaltsas, Director of the National Archaeological Museum of Athens and General Supervisor of the exhibition project, “We have a lot of questions about coloring of the ancient Greek marble monuments.” Specifically, how were the pigments exactly applied onto the marble surface? Is it possible that ancient Greeks used anti-realistic coloring, on the grounds that the statues were only to be seen from afar? What techniques did they use? Is it possible they made mixtures of the natural basic pigments that we used to color the casts, in which case the aesthetic result would be altogether different?

This is a question impossible to answer by studying the preserved traces of colors on the originals. Archaeology, together with sister sciences and technology, might, some day in the future, provide more information on the polychromy of the ancient marble monuments. What have been the aesthetic reactions of the Exhibition’s visitors? We would not lie if we said that it came as a shock to them: ‘My God, it is like a cartoon!” we overheard a lady saying. “Impossible to have been colored this way, this is sheer blasphemy!” someone else protested.

The citizens of this country experience a strange approach to the art masterpieces of Antiquity: from the wave of protests among school children on being announced of yet another educational visit to some archaeological site, we eventually, unconsciously, reach a stage when we feel like having feet of marble, knowing that wherever we step on this Greek soil, we actually step on buried marble statues! Now, thanks to (or should we say, on account of) this Exhibition, we are obliged to re-examine how we feel! The minimalist aesthetics of white marble made it convenient for us to converse with the Souls of our ancestors, a relation between living and dead people, grandiose people for sure, but nevertheless dead! All of a sudden, by visiting this exhibition, we find ourselves promenading through their Agora and their Temples; we cannot help but gaze directly into their colorful eyes; we come across the everyday man-in-the-street and not just the ancient gods, as the name of the exhibition maintains; we get to know them in a new realistic colorful way. Whether in their wealth or poverty, we feel the softness of their character and their bravery, their tenderness towards their deceased, and the disasters they had to face. In other words, as living person to living person.


(Text: Michael Tziotis)

The Sarcophagus from Sidon, the So-Called Sarcophagus of Alexander the Great



source




Τhe So-Called Sarcophagus of Alexander the Great
The most recent examination of the traces of the coloring of the sarcophagus was carried out in February 2006. In the context of this study about 300 measurements of the pigments could be made with the help of spectral analysis. As a result 20 different pigments could be distinguished. All of them were applied pure and unmixed. The reconstructions show two parts of the scene of the battle against the Persians. Here we show the one to the left, Alexander the Great on horseback, on the whole reconstructed in colors. On the casts only those areas are colored whose pigments were found on the original.

[conon394]

The problem is that we don't have literature sources for the description of how Macedon units identified their units, although some units, like Sliver Shield, may be easy to identify due to their different color of shield. Overall, without a source, we can only use other armed force as example to assume how Macedonian did it.

Again my only point was the that argument by analogy can be both illuminating or completely misleading. Even a very plausible case would remain speculation.

In this I not very confident in arguing blue was some specific infantry color of the line phalanx or even of of royal guards, companies what have you. The artist images show many different colors of helmets and the Alex Sarcophagus is clearly impacted by artistic decisions. Is the blue a true color or a stand in for iron or a silvered helmet is as far as I can tell not answerble from period sources

I guess what I'm trying to say is as far as the evidence seems to allow I OK with suggesting some Macedonian infantry had blue helmets. Going a step farther is more or less pure speculation to tie to some regiment or organizational or uniform system..

[hellheaven1987]

Anyway, do we have sources suggest how successor states identified their own force??

[AnthoniusII]

Democracy left Athens with one King (the spiritual leader of the city).
The royal fammily members "joined" the new reformed athenian democratic army as separate unit(like the unit of diplomats too).
As nobles by birth they had the right to have their bronze armors and helmets painted purple. Their shields (their majority in black) had the Sun of Argos as their heraldic on their shields. In memory of their relation to the royal fammily of Argeias (Oikogeneia ton Argeiadon=fammily of Argos).
Those were their shields.
Despite the fact that these shields were Athenian (1st created by the royal fammily of Argos) what other kingdom and their royal fammily do they remind us?

[konny]

Something appearing "blue", "green" or "red" whatever on old picture doesn't have to mean that in reality it had that color. While the Carolingian periode was mentioned above: We indeed do have contemporary pictures of Carolingan soldiers having green, red or blue helmets - but on the same pictures horses and walls are also green, blue or red. Example:

Yes, judiging from this picture Carolingian soldiers did paint their helmets green - but they also painted their horses green. Either that, or green is meant to be black or dark grey....

Similar, there are also lots of Ancient pictures showing soldiers blue helmets - but also with blue swords. so either the Greeks and Romans also painted their swords, or blue is meant to be "metal".

[Flavius Nevitta]

Something appearing "blue", "green" or "red" whatever on old picture doesn't have to mean that in reality it had that color. While the Carolingian periode was mentioned above: We indeed do have contemporary pictures of Carolingan soldiers having green, red or blue helmets - but on the same pictures horses and walls are also green, blue or red. Example:

Yes, judiging from this picture Carolingian soldiers did paint their helmets green - but they also painted their horses green. Either that, or green is meant to be black or dark grey....

Similar, there are also lots of Ancient pictures showing soldiers blue helmets - but also with blue swords. so either the Greeks and Romans also painted their swords, or blue is meant to be "metal".

but then there's still this:

which was posted before

btw I really like how those helmets are painted. Why shouldn't some of them paint their helmets? There's a lot of personalized armour. Just look at some of the Roman equipment they found. Even though the state provided armor many soldiers had personalized or special equipment.

The Batavian Auxiliaries even cut off pieces of the Roman helmets and glued Hair/Fur to them...

[hellheaven1987]

Something appearing "blue", "green" or "red" whatever on old picture doesn't have to mean that in reality it had that color. While the Carolingian periode was mentioned above: We indeed do have contemporary pictures of Carolingan soldiers having green, red or blue helmets - but on the same pictures horses and walls are also green, blue or red. Example:

Yes, judiging from this picture Carolingian soldiers did paint their helmets green - but they also painted their horses green. Either that, or green is meant to be black or dark grey....

Similar, there are also lots of Ancient pictures showing soldiers blue helmets - but also with blue swords. so either the Greeks and Romans also painted their swords, or blue is meant to be "metal".

There is no question that Carolingian force did use different color, whether helmet, clothes, shield or even all together, to distinuish the different units. I remember there were some literature sources that some Carolingian lords asked their own men wearing blue or red clothes in order to be easily noticed. Bernard S. Bachrach even goes further and argue that some lords might have privilege to use certain combination of color for their own troops, hence created an uniform overall.

[Starlightman]

I guess what I'm trying to say is as far as the evidence seems to allow I OK with suggesting some Macedonian infantry had blue helmets. Going a step farther is more or less pure speculation to tie to some regiment or organizational or uniform system..

+1

cause we all posting Smurfs I can't resist....


here is a pic from DBA Macedonian hypaspists



a Macedonian vuvuzela...maybe Alexander's army reach South Africa back then....


@Konny

Similar, there are also lots of Ancient pictures showing soldiers blue helmets - but also with blue swords. so either the Greeks and Romans also painted their swords, or blue is meant to be "metal".

can you post some of these pictures...?Ancient,not Medieval...





I think that we want to find the color?about the frygian style helmets of Alexander's footmen soldiers?

also(from fanaticus.org DBA armies)

Alexander's army 355-330BC

But ever tried to find info on uniform colours? It was, for me, a difficult and lengthy task. Eventually though, I found the excellent Osprey guide. But, remembering the days when I was shuffling through a million books looking for info, I decided to say a few words on the topic for those of us who would probably conquer the known world to get a few uniform colours.

Pezetairoi: The Pezetairoi, or Foot Companions, were the pike-armed central core of Alexander's army. The colours are:

• HELMET: The Phrygian-style helmet (looking like a Smurf hat in bronze) was either painted electric blue or left in bronze. The back flap of the helmet was painted in a different colour, presumably unit colours. Officers had an odd curl of white paint on both sides of the blue helmet. Most soldiers had two plumes of feathers on both sides of the helmet, extending from tubes near the cheek-hinges. The feathers pointed up, and were large and white.

Hypaspists: These dressed much like pezetairoi except maybe with no armour, maybe with purple helmets/tunics. They MAY have had spears, not Pikes.

and

Prodromoi: Light horse, used for skirmishing/scouting.

• HELMET: Rose coloured phrygian helmet.

!!!


source

actually,this new?oppinion about painted helmets of Alexander's army have to do with an Osprey book?...an another mistake or a new evidence???

and also a topic about Macedonian armor at RAT

link


edit

Democracy left Athens with one King (the spiritual leader of the city).
The royal fammily members "joined" the new reformed athenian democratic army as separate unit(like the unit of diplomats too).
As nobles by birth they had the right to have their bronze armors and helmets painted purple. Their shields (their majority in black) had the Sun of Argos as their heraldic on their shields. In memory of their relation to the royal fammily of Argeias (Oikogeneia ton Argeiadon=fammily of Argos).
Those were their shields.
Despite the fact that these shields were Athenian (1st created by the royal fammily of Argos) what other kingdom and their royal fammily do they remind us?

The eight-pointed star, symbol of the old royal house of Athens and emblem of
the members of the Medontid clan (branch of the royal Melanthid clan), that
remain in Attica advocating the first democratic reforms, and consequently
refusing the symbols of royal power (notably the colour purple). From an
hoplitodromos shield, after 520 BCE (CP 151, Musée du Louvre).
source



The shoulder pieces of yet another hoplite from an Athenian vase of 450 BC above), are likewise decorated with 8-ray Sunbursts. This scene captures the solemn mood of the hoplite warrior’s departure for battle. He is shown clasping his father’s hand while his wife (or mother) carries a phiale (cup) which will be used for the ritual libation of farewell:

450 BC:




Athenian Hoplite, 4th century BC:





source

[conon394]

Anthoniusll

I am very perplexed by your augments…

Democracy left Athens with one King (the spiritual leader of the city).

Again I can only presume you mean the archon basileus

http://www.stoa.org/projects/demos/a...oding=UnicodeC

The thing is under the democracy the Archon in question was chosen by lot (by the first quarter of the 5th century BC) and even under the moderate Solon oligarchy the post was filled by election from the wealthy (and thus not a closed family/clan/blood system.

It’s true that some clans or families had various religious roles even these were eventually subsumed to the democracy.

The royal fammily members "joined" the new reformed athenian democratic army as separate unit(like the unit of diplomats too).
As nobles by birth they had the right to have their bronze armors and helmets painted purple. Their shields (their majority in black) had the Sun of Argos as their heraldic on their shields. In memory of their relation to the royal fammily of Argeias (Oikogeneia ton Argeiadon=fammily of Argos).
Those were their shields.

You know an 8 pointed star is not all that unusual of a symbol. Certainly nothing links any of the royal Athenian lines to Argos. The Kings of Athens are either the progeny of Ericthonius and thus born from the earth or the fleeing nobility of Pylos – Ionian and not Dorian.




Starlightman

Have you a single credible source that links the star to the supposed ‘Medontid’ clan. and you know you got one sixteen pointed star there. As always vase art is art not record and driven first and foremost by what can be easily and effectively drawn – a 57 point star on that scale is not going to look like much.