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  1. #1
    Farnan's Avatar Saviors of the Japanese
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    Default March of Freedom in the Middle East

    In Egypt they have begun to allow more candidates than one to run for president, though this may be a token move it means that it is at least a move further.

    In Lebanon they kicked out the Syrian soldiers and began a process of self-determination.

    In Saudi Arabia they have begun to allow munipal elections.

    It seems the banner of freedom is at least beggining to move, and once it gains steam, all the Middle East may be taken in by this great movement, and democracy can gain hold where once it existed in but two nations; Israel and Turkey.

    Edit: I love this, I post this thread and now I get ads for cheap phone calls to Saudi Arabia.
    Last edited by Farnan; November 01, 2005 at 09:57 PM.
    “The nation that will insist upon drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking by cowards.”

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    Big War Bird's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Our NeoCon plan is working!!
    As a teenager, I was taken to various houses and flats above takeaways in the north of England, to be beaten, tortured and raped over 100 times. I was called a “white slag” and “white ****” as they beat me.

    -Ella Hill

  3. #3

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    You forgot Iraq having popular elections and voting for and approving a new democratic constitution. You also forgot Libya giving up it's desire for WMD and making gestures of good will towards the world community, and more specifically towards the US.

    We've got a long, long way to go, but there are indeed glimmerings of change coming from the Middle-East.
    Faithfully under the patronage of the fallen yet rather amiable Octavian.

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    I really am happy to see this going on. I think it's great that more democracies are springing up in the region, and I do hope it leads to less terrorism and a more stable region, etc. BUT i still don't support the iraq war

    We can't really know if this is the work of the neo-cons, because its impossible to tell something like this. who knows, these movements might have happened even moreso if we hadnt invaded. but if they are the result of the neo-con's war, then i will give them credit where it is due. Too bad we can't know their real motivation for the war either.

    and please note that this is the spread of democracy, not 'freedom'

  5. #5
    Farnan's Avatar Saviors of the Japanese
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    Yes, Libya and Iraq can be added to the list. I didn't include Iraq because the change is obvious, I am including the rest of those nation where the banner of freedom is beginning to fly.
    “The nation that will insist upon drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking by cowards.”

    —Sir William Francis Butler

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    Farnan's Avatar Saviors of the Japanese
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    Democracy = Freedom, Dictatorship = control. While there may be a benevolent Dictator there is still less freedom than in a a Democracy.
    “The nation that will insist upon drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking by cowards.”

    —Sir William Francis Butler

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    Quote Originally Posted by Farnan
    Democracy = Freedom, Dictatorship = control. While there may be a benevolent Dictator there is still less freedom than in a a Democracy.
    how does democracy equal freedom? The citizens of iraq could easily elect to have a totalitarian state if they wanted to.

  8. #8

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    The citizens of iraq could easily elect to have a totalitarian state if they wanted to.
    Can they then vote to abolish it. You realise thats a contradictory statement you just made?
    I have nothing against the womens movement. Especially when Im walking behind it.


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    Oldgamer's Avatar My President ...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atheist Peace
    how does democracy equal freedom? The citizens of iraq could easily elect to have a totalitarian state if they wanted to.
    Of course, they could. Having done so, however, would they then have the right to "elect" a democratic state to replace it? The leaders of most totalitarian states are not usually prone to allow the state to become democratic again, not matter what the people want ...

  10. #10
    Farnan's Avatar Saviors of the Japanese
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    Well then its no longer a democracy, but it is then a Dictatorship. Freedom includes the ability to give up your freedom.
    “The nation that will insist upon drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking by cowards.”

    —Sir William Francis Butler

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    Big War Bird's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    I suggest closing this thread as it will certainly soon devolve into a flame war between those who think democracy is a decidedly good thing and dare to dream big things (us neocons) and those, though living under democracy, aren't really to big on the whole idea of brown skinned people being allowed to vote in fair elections, especially if it involves the forceful removal brutal dictators.

    We can't really know if this is the work of the neo-cons, because its impossible to tell something like this. who knows, these movements might have happened even moreso if we hadnt invaded. but if they are the result of the neo-con's war, then i will give them credit where it is due. Too bad we can't know their real motivation for the war either.
    You should come to our meetings. spreading democracy to anyone and everyone is priority number 1 according to the bulletin board.
    As a teenager, I was taken to various houses and flats above takeaways in the north of England, to be beaten, tortured and raped over 100 times. I was called a “white slag” and “white ****” as they beat me.

    -Ella Hill

  12. #12

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    Democracy gives you the freedom to choose life under a dictator? True.

    But then you would have to be stupid to do that...o wait.. we are stupid enough to do that, gulp.

    JK, but that's one of the cycles of democracy. And it's not only terrifying, but compeltely possible if we fall asleep at the wheel.

    This is very long winded, but it is worth the read if you are in the least bit interested in Democracy. Thusly, also making it pertainent to this thread, and not spam, just very long winded.

    A warning was given about the time our original 13 states adopted their new constitution in 1787. A Scottish history professor by the name of Professor Alexander Tyler had this to say about "The Fall of the Athenian Republic" over 2,000 years previous to that date:

    "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse (generous gifts) from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, (which is) always followed by a dictatorship."

    "The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been two hundred years.

    These nations have progressed through this sequence:"



    From bondage to spiritual faith;

    from spiritual faith to great courage;

    from courage to liberty;

    from liberty to abundance,

    from abundance to complacency;

    from complacency to apathy,

    from apathy to dependence,

    from dependence back into bondage.



    Having read what Professor Tyler had to say, now read the following and see what Professor Joseph Olson of Hamline University School of Law, St. Paul, Minnesota, wrote about the 2000 Presidential election between Al Gore and George Bush.

    *Population of counties won by Gore 127 million -- by Bush 143 million.

    *Square miles of country won by Gore 580,000 -- by Bush 2,427,000.

    *States won by Gore 19 -- by Bush 29.

    *Murder per 100,000 residents in counties won by Gore 13.2 -- by Bush 2.1 (not a typo).

    Professor Olson adds: "The map of the territory Bush won was mostly the land owned by the people of this great country, NOT the citizens living in cities in tenements owned by the government and living off the government."

    Professor Olson thinks the .U.S now is between the apathy and complacency phase of democracy although he believes that 40% of the nation's population already has reached the dependency phase.


    It would be naive at best to think that it can't happen here in the US. It's already started, both at a federal and state level. Back in 1965 President Lyndon Baines Johnson declared that "The Great Society", his programs to win the war against poverty, would eliminate the problems with urban decay and ease the burdens placed upon the poor. They did anything but solve the problems and created even more dependency upon the government. What started as a hand up for the poor and undereducated became something seen as an entitlement, something that was owed. Some of that trend has been reversed, but the mindset still exists.

    On a state level the perfect example of how a democracy can be twisted into something resembling a public feeding trough is California. Things that had once been a "nice to have" program or plan have slowly become, over the years, 'necessities' to be maintained at all costs and the taxpayer be damned. And it hasn't been just fiscal mismanagement that has brought California to its financial knees, but the ever increasing entitlements that suck in more and more taxpayer dollars and send them down a monetary black hole.

    Either the state financial system eventually crashes because of the ever increasing demands made upon it, or the decision must be made to stop the insanity and much needed and overdue repairs performed. The next few years will tell the rest of the nation whether the California political machines will be able to make the necessary changes, as unpopular as they might be, or whether it will be business as usual while the taxpayers and businesses in the Golden State decide they've had enough and vote with their feet.

    It's time for everyone in the U.S. to take a close look at government spending, decide what are truly necessities versus what are nice-to haves masquerading as necessities, and get back to taking care of them. And maybe, just maybe, if we can do that we might be able to hold off the fall of yet another republic and the subsequent descent into anarchy followed by the bondage of dictatorship.
    Last edited by Francisco Montana; November 01, 2005 at 10:19 PM.
    Faithfully under the patronage of the fallen yet rather amiable Octavian.

    Smile! The better the energy you put in, the better the energy you will get out.

  13. #13

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    Democracy = Freedom, Dictatorship = control. While there may be a benevolent Dictator there is still less freedom than in a a Democracy.
    You have got to be kidding me. Democracy allows for rule of the majority, which is not always a good thing. Majorities don't always want freedom. Benevolent dictatorships are highly unlikely, since power corrupts people very quickly. But if one were to happen in theory, it would not automatically be more oppressive than a Democracy.

    Freedom is a measure of how much control the government has over you, not a measure of how much control people have over the government.

    And Big War Bird, if you don't want this to degenerate into flaming you probably shouldn't characterize all opponents of Democracy as being unable to "dream big dreams" and who are opposed to freedom for "brown skinned people."

  14. #14

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    "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse (generous gifts) from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, (which is) always followed by a dictatorship."

    "The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been two hundred years.
    This and the rest of your post is probably my favorite quote of all time. Were past our time already. Still our government keeps getting bigger and it hands out more and more money? Now where does it get this from? It doesnt make anything. This is what pork is all about and why government should be kept assmall and unintrusive as much as possible. These jerks keep getting elected by taking our money and spending it on things to get them re elected.
    I have nothing against the womens movement. Especially when Im walking behind it.


  15. #15

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    Sounds a lot like the Freedom Day episode of Futurama.

  16. #16
    Decanus
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    Well, if democracy IS beginning to take hold, that is a good thing. It will be a while, I think, before we know for sure if progress is being made. Saudi Arabia, in particular, has big problems (a large fundementalist movement, public stonings etc).
    However, I don't think that Western intervention is always the best solution. As the countries' education improves people are bound to question authority. The people in the Middle East have to decide for themselves what's best, although I think that Europe and America should certainly help democratic movements, it might be best in the long run if they let things happen on their own.
    "War! What is it good for? Absolutely NOTHING!"- War, Edwin Starr

  17. #17

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    Well, if democracy IS beginning to take hold, that is a good thing.
    Not necessarily. Iran has been a democracy for years. Too many people equate democracy with freedom, as though some majority will never choose to impose serious controls (religious or otherwise) upon society.

  18. #18
    Big War Bird's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Iran is not a democracy
    As a teenager, I was taken to various houses and flats above takeaways in the north of England, to be beaten, tortured and raped over 100 times. I was called a “white slag” and “white ****” as they beat me.

    -Ella Hill

  19. #19

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    I suggest closing this thread as it will certainly soon devolve into a flame war between those who think democracy is a decidedly good thing and dare to dream big things (us neocons) and those, though living under democracy, aren't really to big on the whole idea of brown skinned people being allowed to vote in fair elections, especially if it involves the forceful removal brutal dictators.
    Just to comment this one. Nobody has anything against democracy and nations starting one. Our problem is that neocons think they can make democracy which causes more problems and can even put backwards the process of reaching democracy.

    Democracy is something that must come within the nation, never from outside. By interfering with internal structure of another nation you cause immediate backlash. Those ideals and people associated with invader become traitors and thus it is easy to destroy work and achievements of those who have worked for years in their homenation to bring forth the ideals of democracy.

    Dream of forcing others to democracy all you want neocons but do not try to push that dream into real world because they are not compatible.


    Everyone is warhero, genius and millionaire in Internet, so don't be surprised that I'm not impressed.

  20. #20

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    Iran is as democratic as the United States is, and it's as democratic as our hopes for Iraq. Technically, all three nations are republics, but since most people don't have a clue as to the difference we usually say "Democracy" instead because it sounds better.

    Their highest leader is chosen by the Assembly of Experts, while ours is chosen by the Electoral College. Our cabinet is picked at the sole discretion of the President, while their is subject to legislative oversight. Both countries' legislative branches are determined by popular vote.

    Just to comment this one. Nobody has anything against democracy and nations starting one.
    I do. Democracy is essentially a glorified form of mob rule, with the added danger of a supposed moral justification. If a dictator oppresses a group, nobody has any doubt that it is wrong. If a democracy oppresses a group, it then becomes morally justifiable in the eyes of a population that has been indoctrinated in the moral superiority of democracy.

    Our problem is that neocons think they can make democracy which causes more problems and can even put backwards the process of reaching democracy.
    That's a problem too, but even if they could successfully implement a democracy it wouldn't necessarily be a just system. Clearly defined limits on what government can and cannot do are much more important than mechanism by which the course of action is determined.

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