Lethality of the sling

[Sargon_of_Akkad]

I read above that some people can shoot slings at over 300 metres. If this is true, what is it that hindered ancient peoples from doing so? I think the best slingers in EB I can only shoot at around the 200 metre range.

Ancient authors tell us that some slingers (Rhodians and Balearic) could reach 600m.

If EB has slingers less than that, it is ahistorical.

[MisterFred]

Not really (in regards to the immediately preceding post). Since the ammo used for the farthest distances will weigh less and follow a parabolic trajectory. Heavier stones following a linear trajectory at closer range posed a much greater threat in set-piece battles. The EB modders have to balance quite a bit of factors with an extremely limited ranged combat engine. Most importantly, units can not switch between ammo sizes (different attack powers and ranges). As a result slingers have a range less than their maximum, but still far enough to be competitive with other ranged units a good balance between their true maximum range and the shorter optimal range. Armor piercing means that slingers fighting at a distance with other ranged units (who are generally unarmored) do not have a high total attack, correctly representing the low lethality of long-distance shot.

While the fixed range and the armor piercing ability makes slingers a bit overly strong when hitting the back of an enemy distance from maximum range, in an actual battle slingers that had the freedom to maneuver behind an enemy heavy infantry formation could probably dance in and out of their most lethal range anyway, so the brutal lethality of slingers hitting armored targets unprotected by shields again makes for a good compromise.

Don't blame the modders because the engine can't give a unit multiple different ranges and ammo types, etc., (the RTW engine is pretty terrible at simulating psiloi in general).

Trying to massage the engine to represent this variety is how we get our disappointingly effective Balearics. They have less range (& ammo?) and more attack power in an attempt to better simulate slingers using heavier shot as opposed to the lighter shot used by most of the slinger clones. But because of the AP attribute slingers have and the engine's experience system, the benefits given the Balearics are less noticeable than perhaps intended.

[Sargon_of_Akkad]

Not really

Yes really. It's not an insult, its an observation.

Since the ammo used for the farthest distances will weigh less and follow a parabolic trajectory. Heavier stones following a linear trajectory at closer range posed a much greater threat in set-piece battles.

Here's the first example of how you don't understand slinging: professional slingers didn't use stones. They used specifically-crafted lead or clay shot, normally oval in shape, to maximise distance and weight.

A slinger would have had a single kind of ammunition on him. He wouldn't have been looking around on the floor for ammo, as he would have found none. Low-level 'peasant' slingers would undoubtedly have used stones, but these would have been specifically collected from river beds, and be round and heavy as well as moderately small - again, good ammunition.

The second example of how you do not understand slinging is your assumption that light ammo travels further - it does not. It is easily taken by the wind, and pushed down. It is very poor, and the heavier and smaller the ammo you use, the better. Hence the use of lead and clay shot - dense and small.

The EB modders have to balance quite a bit of factors with an extremely limited ranged combat engine. Most importantly, units can not switch between ammo sizes (different attack powers and ranges).

No, they can't and wouldn't need to.

As a result slingers have a range less than their maximum, but still far enough to be competitive with other ranged units a good balance between their true maximum range and the shorter optimal range. Armor piercing means that slingers fighting at a distance with other ranged units (who are generally unarmored) do not have a high total attack, correctly representing the low lethality of long-distance shot.

Again, incorrect. The longer the shot, the greater the lethality. This is dependant on technique. Short-range slinging is actually quite difficult, as it is hard to generate power and accuracy over a low range. You'll find that you simply can't get the power when you're aiming at a target of less than 30m, because you have to use a different technique to hit it because of it's low angle (and your subsequent low angle of release).

As you've already incorrectly assumed, you use light ammo to sling futher. I've already explained this is not the case.

Don't blame the modders because the engine can't give a unit multiple different ranges and ammo types, etc., (the RTW engine is pretty terrible at simulating psiloi in general).

I don't 'blame' anyone, I am addressing factual inaccuracies by the modders - I should be thanked for this, as I'm making your game more historically accurate. Don't get defensive because you aren't perfect first time at an activity none of you have actually tried.

Trying to massage the engine to represent this variety is how we get our disappointingly effective Balearics. They have less range (& ammo?) and more attack power in an attempt to better simulate slingers using heavier shot as opposed to the lighter shot used by most of the slinger clones. But because of the AP attribute slingers have and the engine's experience system, the benefits given the Balearics are less noticeable than perhaps intended.

Well, this followed from your faulty assumption about 'heavier shot' so I don't need to address it again.

[Mediolanicus]

Yes, but you are missing some things here.

1. They COULD reach that far. By no means every shot they took went that far. Not every slinger had the the technique or strength to launch a projectile that far. Apart from that there's wind and weather that may affect your distance. The RTW engine does not take that into account.

2. At the end of those 600m no projectile would still pack enough punch to do any real damage. The RTW engine does not take that into account either. 1m or 600m: same damage.

Though I do not necessarily that the EB values are "right" or "correct", I can only conclude that your suggestion that not giving slingers that kind of range would ahistorical, is wrong. In fact, while you are completely correct that they could reach that distance, if you gave EB slinger that range, they would be ahistorically powerful due to the RTW engine's limitations.

You could argue that making them less effective is a solution, but that would make them too weak in the short ranges.

So a more average range, the effective range as it were, is more approriate here. And I repeat, that may or may not be the EB distance, but it certainly is not the maximum range.



On a side note; and in general, not directed at you only, Sargon: maybe people don't mean it that way, but why does it seem that people are coming in here saying "hello, this is wrong, you egghead. Now change it and thank me - what? Oh no, a statue is not necessary, besides I already have that many of me standing everywhere anyway... Glad I could be of your service, goodbye".

What is wrong with "Hello, there seems to be an inconsistence with this and that evidence I here present. Please explain or look into this."
Followed by either "Oh, I see, that's reasonable, thank you for the information", or "I'm glad to have been of help and that you will keep it in mind when making EB II".

[Sargon_of_Akkad]

1. They COULD reach that far. By no means every shot they took went that far. Not every slinger had the the technique or strength to launch a projectile that far. Apart from that there's wind and weather that may affect your distance. The RTW engine does not take that into account.

Of course not, 600m was the upper-limit of slinging. I suspect around 300-400m was probably the best range for most professional slingers.

2. At the end of those 600m no projectile would still pack enough punch to do any real damage. The RTW engine does not take that into account either. 1m or 600m: same damage.

Not being a physicist, I'm not going to take the time to work this out, however I would be very reluctant to be hit by a projectile that has just travelled downwards for about 150 metres.

Though I do not necessarily that the EB values are "right" or "correct", I can only conclude that your suggestion that not giving slingers that kind of range would ahistorical, is wrong. In fact, while you are completely correct that they could reach that distance, if you gave EB slinger that range, they would be ahistorically powerful due to the RTW engine's limitations.

It absolutely is ahistorical, and there is no room for debate on it, I'm afraid. Any ancient source regarding slingers stresses their phenominal range in comparison to archery. If you give a sling a short maximum range comparable to your archers, then you are specifically going out of your way to make it ahistorical.

You could argue that making them less effective is a solution, but that would make them too weak in the short ranges.

This is your misconception. As I have already said, you do not use a sling at a short range because it is weak at short range. I realise that you might have trouble understanding this, but if your opponents came within 40-50m, as a slinger, you'd just run away. You wouldn't load your sling for another volley.

It is entirely down to technique. The most powerful, and therefore longest range, techniques require you to fire underarm, and you snap your hips, shoulder and wrist in concert to create massive range. You can actually feel the power travel through your body, and if you mess up the timing, you end up pulling your arm muscles as if you'd just been lifting weights. You can't do this if your opponent is close to you as your bullet would simply fly over their heads.

So a more average range, the effective range as it were, is more approriate here. And I repeat, that may or may not be the EB distance, but it certainly is not the maximum range.

And I repeat, the 'average' range you need is far higher than the one you think.

On a side note; and in general, not directed at you only, Sargon: maybe people don't mean it that way, but why does it seem that people are coming in here saying "hello, this is wrong, you egghead. Now change it and thank me - what? Oh no, a statue is not necessary, besides I already have that many of me standing everywhere anyway... Glad I could be of your service, goodbye".

Yes, I can understand how you armchair generals can know everything about a given subject without ever having undertaken it. I can't imagine the amount of hubris I'd require to turn around to someone who's actually done something I haven't and tell them they're wrong.

What is wrong with "Hello, there seems to be an inconsistence with this and that evidence I here present. Please explain or look into this."
Followed by either "Oh, I see, that's reasonable, thank you for the information", or "I'm glad to have been of help and that you will keep it in mind when making EB II".

Because we feel like we're banging our heads on a brick wall with all your faulty assumptions? You won't listen, despite our best efforts? Who knows.

[Mediolanicus]

Like I said, I don't say the EB value is the right one. Personally I think it should be higher too for the professional slingers (close to 300) and about the 220-40 for levy slingers (which I presume had no access to mass produced leaden bullets - and I doubt clay or pebbles were equally effective; though effective enough.

That would make about 140 for levy archers, about 190 for Cretans and Eastern archers, about 220-40 for levy slingers, 280-300 for professional slingers.

The limits of the engine make truely accurate slingers impossible. There are equally effective at each distance. And are always able to shoot that distance. Therefore I still prefer having a conservative average distance.

[Foot]

Because we feel like we're banging our heads on a brick wall with all your faulty assumptions? You won't listen, despite our best efforts? Who knows.

Show me where someone has come to the EB Team and politely inquired into a particular facet of the mod, followed it up with an argument of their own to the contrary or some other position, and then we have rudely ignored them, and I'll show you a contrite and apologetic team leader.

Otherwise, your claim that anyone associated with the team (and I assume it is the team as Mediolanicus was talking about approaching the EB Team with alternative ideas to our own) does not listen needs to be withdrawn. We are, and always have been open to discourse, sometimes to the detriment of the mod's progress.

Foot

[Sargon_of_Akkad]

That would make about 140 for levy archers, about 190 for Cretans and Eastern archers, about 220-40 for levy slingers, 280-300 for professional slingers.

I think these are a pretty fine set of stats. I would probably put levy slingers around 200, though.

[Mediolanicus]

My only concern would be that this makes the professional slingers even more overpowered than they already are in the game.

[MisterFred]

Sargon, you make some good points, and did a good job pointing out some of my faulty assumptions. One point you didn't address though, and I still think is valid, is that the longest ranges would most likely involve a parabolic flight path, rather than a more powerful linear flight path at short range. Which seems to me that in a Total War engine, if slingers are created with a long range, they should have the armor piercing attribute removed. Which might also alleviate some of Mediolanicus' balance worries.

One thing none of us are doing, and absolutely should be if we want to be accepted as an authority, is bring up actual text rather than "all the ancient sources." I can't read the ancient greek, but I can read an english translation.

Xenophon, Anabasis,Book III, iii, 15
"For at present the enemy can shoot arrows and sling stones so far that neither our Cretan bowmen nor our javelin men can reach them in reply"
(a good source for common [read: stone-throwing] slingers out-ranging basic archers and roughly equaling in maximum range if not punch - a body hit would probably be less lethal than an arrowhead - standard eastern archers)
(elsewhere in this translation, Xenophon mentions the javelin-throwers used a leather strap as a throwing tool, fyi)

Xenophon, Anabasis, Book III, iii, 16 [next page, same link above]
"Now I'm told that there are Rhodians in our army, that most of them understand the use of the sling, and that their missile carries no less than twice as far as those from the Persian slings. For the latter have only a short range because the stones that are used in them are as large as the hand can hold; the Rhodians, however, are versed also in the art of slinging leaden bullets."
(Edit - nevertheless, twice as far seems a bit much for a Total War engine, unless the lead shot is given an equivalent attack power to the stone shot. If it's given a greater attack power, some fudging for balance seems necessary. See second post below.)

Xenophon, Anabasis, Book III, iv, 16-17 [use link above, advance to page 471]
"And the barbarians were no longer able to do any harm by their skirmishing at long range; for the Rhodian slingers carried farther with their missiles than the Persians, farther even than the Persian bowmen. The Persian bows are also large, and consequently the Cretans could make good use of all the arrows that fell into their hands; in fact, they were continuously using the enemy's arrows, and practiced themselves in long-range work by shooting them into the air. In the villages, furthermore, the Greeks found gut in abundance and lead for the use of their slingers."
(gut was for the bowmen, earlier Xenophon referred to paying the Rhodians to 'plait' extra slings)

It's worth noting, of course, than Xenophon was not only a Greek, but playing up the achievements of the Ten Thousand (and claiming the organization of the Rhodians as his own innovation) helped advance his own fame and influence. Also, a bit before our time period. This supports some of the points above, some not so much (while the Rhodians used lead shot, this had to be facilitated by acquiring supplies of lead - also units of slingers employed by the Persians argues large-scale use of stone shot was also common - in RTW engine terms this could potentially mean ordinary slingers having much less range and possibly punch than elite slingers). Continuing to address Mediolanicus' balance concerns, the Rhodians with Xenophon had to be convinced to switch roles from hoplite to slinger by giving them a bonus and guaranteeing not to reduce their pay. Which is an excellent source for the relative cheapness of psiloi in mercenary armies, and of the expense of the best ranged units equaling and potentially slightly exceeding that of line infantry. Xenophon, if not superseded by other (especially more time-period appropriate sources) would also seem to indicate Cretans are not so superior to Persians in the archery department.

I'd very much like to see more references to other texts IF the argument on how to best translate this into the RTW engine continues, since those who are most vocal also seem to insist they are familiar with many of the ancient authors. I'm not, so it would be quite educational (I just happened to have read Xenophon quite recently).

[MisterFred]

The basic problem still seems to me to be slingers in the role of ranged unit fighting ranged unit (range prioritized over power), as represented by Xenophon in the Anabasis Versus slingers in the role of psiloi beating on defenseless heavy infantry (power & linear trajectories emphasized over range) as in the Battle of Ipsus between Antigonus and Seleucus+Macedonian allies. These two roles argue for vastly different stats.

The first role argues for a very long-range low attack power unit (without armor-piercing), probably using arrow-like arcing shot. The second role argues for higher attack stats, the armor-piercing attribute, and a cross-bow like elimination of arcing shot.

A historical compromise between these roles in the same unit seems impossible in the Total War engine. Which leaves the options of emphasizing one role over the other universally, having multiple types of slinger units that follow one or the other role, or coming up with some sort of muddy compromise for the sake of gameplay 'feel' (which is how I see EB I slingers).

[Sargon_of_Akkad]

Some good points there MisterFred.

In regards to the Anabasis (which I've actually been reading today, coincidentally), Xenophon and his Ten Thousand were in the position where they were deep in hostile territory without a supply line. Most professional slingers would not have been in this position, most would be with a faction's army that would (theoretically) not be thousands of miles from home, without anyone to resupply them.

I would recommend using Mediolanicus' ranges above with a non-AP but standard damage sling. The range is still the longest hand weapon in the game (which it would be) but it's damage isn't extreme.

[MisterFred]

Yes, but don't forget there are TWO units of slingers in the Anabasis - the Rhodians, who are deep in hostile territory without a supply line, and the Persian slingers, who were presumably gathered as such and are well supplied in their own territory. The Persians still used rock ammunition - hence my suggestion that 'standard' slingers - like the average Eastern Slinger, have range roughly equivalent to professional but not exceptional bowmen (Persian Archers).

[Sargon_of_Akkad]

Yes, but don't forget there are TWO units of slingers in the Anabasis - the Rhodians, who are deep in hostile territory without a supply line, and the Persian slingers, who were presumably gathered as such and are well supplied in their own territory. The Persians still used rock ammunition - hence my suggestion that 'standard' slingers - like the average Eastern Slinger, have range roughly equivalent to professional but not exceptional bowmen (Persian Archers).

I agree that factions could and probably should have different quality slingers.