Lethality of the sling

[Rescue14]

I haven't seen that specific show, but I know their methodology for other comparisons is flawed at best. Also, the art of slinging has largely been lost over the years.

The thing about slings (in my amateur historical knowledge) is that they are cheap to manufacture and the ammo is cheap. At the time of the Roman Republic and most of the Empire, the bows were inferior since they weren't compound or recurve.

The real horror of the sling is that they could cause massive trauma without breaking skin. For instance, you could have massive hematomas (internal bleeding) and bones breaking or shattering which was a very big problem for the surgeons of the day. Amputation was the best you could hope for in that case. There are many worse cases, I won't get into unless requested.

A blow to the head could cause a concussion or a cerebral hematoma (internal bleeding putting pressure on the brain) which could kill someone or cause irrepairable.

One effect (intended or not) of such weapons also is that they send soldiers home to their town disfigured and broken which causes the public support for whatever conflict to wane.

Slinging.org is an excellent source as another poster stated.

[Shigawire]

sling bullet :24 gm swung one handed ; 30-36 joules(22-27 ft lbs)

If we take the Balearic slingers, they used projectiles weighing roughly 1 mina - that's 270 grams. Should we multiply 30-36 joules (24 grams) by 10? That would make it about 300-360 joules at least.
My physics are rather shoddy, so I'm sure that number would be a little too high.. but you get the idea. Although, the Balearic slingers didn't use lead bullets, but stones. So the coefficiency of drag will be different (different flight characteristics, and different projected flight path).

The armor would be too close to the skin to protect the body. It's like the newton balls.

Imagine the first ball is the stone, the second ball is the armor, the 3rd is the human body. The kinetic energy is transferred easily. From the slinging stone, to the armor, to the skin. It would cause internal bleeding. It's called "blunt trauma" in the medical field - and it can indeed be fatal. Only way to protect yourself is to have padding inside - and even that would be of limited efficacy.

BOOK XIX. 109. DIODORUS OF SICILY (on the Battle of Eknomos, 311 BC)

But when Hamilcar saw that his men were being overpowered and that the Greeks in constantly increasing number were making their way into the camp, he brought up his slingers, who came from the Baliaric Islands and numbered at least a thousand. By hurling a shower of great stones, they wounded many and even killed not a few of those who were attacking, and they shattered the defensive armour of most of them. For these men, who are accustomed to sling stones weighing a mina(1.25pound), contribute a great deal toward victory in battle,since from childhood they practise constantly with the sling.

The slinging ranges on Slinging.org for a stone of equal size:

Melvin Gaylor (1970) - 212.6gram - 349.6m
Vernon Morton - 283.5gram - 258.2m

Also important to realize that these aren't people who had to sling from the age of 7 to be allowed to eat food. These are modern humans living in times when slinging is just their hobby.

[athanaric]

Although, the Balearic slingers didn't use lead bullets, but stones. So the coefficiency of drag will be different (different flight characteristics, and different projected flight path).

But why didn't they use bullets, seeing as the Baleares exported lead anyway? Are there sources regarding the type of their ammunition after 311 B?

[Shigawire]

They could've possibly started using lead bullets later on. We know that ceramic/clay bullets were used in this period as well as lead.
I don't know of any sources regarding their ammunition after 311 BC. But if they managed just fine with stones, there's no reason to suggest they need to have changed. Also it was an integral part of their culture - and cultures change the slowest of all.

[Ichon]

Stones might have been ok many times as well because with the force they put into a hit many stones might have shattered. Shrapnel as such could be possibly even more devastating than lead since a lead bullet would definitely kill 1 man but stone and shrapnel could possibly take out more than 1 man from the fight. Especially versus men wielding decent shields. I don't think many would suggest even lead could penetrate a good shield and still have killing force though at very close range it is possible. However stones which shatter would still be capable of dealing gashes, getting into eyes, not to mention the morale affects of the noise and the easier and cheaper access to ammunition with stone.

[Shabby_Ronin]

I just watched that show, I recall the doctor saying when you have a depressed skull, it's death.

Either way I've watched all those shows and it's pretty much a farce; but it's fun watching them use weapons and destroy ballistic gel dummies.

[MisterFred]

There was a similar show where Bas Rutten ruptured a pig-kidney. Or spleen, or something. That was pretty awesome.

[oudysseos]

Shrapnel

Don't get carried away. Sling bullets do their damage purely through kinetic force, i.e. f=mv². The mass is not as significant as the velocity, and there are no blades or sharp edges to do any cutting. Stones might shatter occasionally, if they strike a hard surface just right, but the ricochet pieces would not be very significant, and it's not something that the slinger would expect or count on. The forces involved are not in the least comparable to firearms and modern munitions.

[bobbin]

Don't get carried away. Sling bullets do their damage purely through kinetic force, i.e. f=mv².

I know I'm being a smartass here but but i think you meant F=ma or E=1/2mv².

[oudysseos]

Oops, you're right, I conflated the force equation with the kinetic energy one. E=1/2mv² gives us the kinetic energy of a sling bullet in joules (kilograms per meter per seconds squared).

[Ichon]

Don't get carried away. Sling bullets do their damage purely through kinetic force, i.e. f=mv². The mass is not as significant as the velocity, and there are no blades or sharp edges to do any cutting. Stones might shatter occasionally, if they strike a hard surface just right, but the ricochet pieces would not be very significant, and it's not something that the slinger would expect or count on. The forces involved are not in the least comparable to firearms and modern munitions.

I think it depends on the type of stone you are using quite a bit. I agree it is not something dependable but just presenting there is some other reasons besides cheap ammo to continue using stones. Many stones would shatter with the force we are talking about here. I am not talking about shrapnel in the sense of modern weapons but chips of stone and sharp flakes ricocheting off a shield would still be a nuisance even if the shield protected completely.

[Brapbrapbap]

What if you used Obsidian instead of lead? It would cause a lot of secondary damage when it shatters right?

[oudysseos]

Guys...

This isn't Oblivion. We're not looking for fantasy-like ways to nerf sling damage.

[bobbin]

What if you used Obsidian instead of lead? It would cause a lot of secondary damage when it shatters right?

No because the fragments would not have much energy, these are stones, not explosive shells.

[mcantu]

If we take the Balearic slingers, they used projectiles weighing roughly 1 mina - that's 270 grams. Should we multiply 30-36 joules (24 grams) by 10? That would make it about 300-360 joules at least.
My physics are rather shoddy, so I'm sure that number would be a little too high.. but you get the idea. Although, the Balearic slingers didn't use lead bullets, but stones. So the coefficiency of drag will be different (different flight characteristics, and different projected flight path).

The armor would be too close to the skin to protect the body. It's like the newton balls.

Imagine the first ball is the stone, the second ball is the armor, the 3rd is the human body. The kinetic energy is transferred easily. From the slinging stone, to the armor, to the skin. It would cause internal bleeding. It's called "blunt trauma" in the medical field - and it can indeed be fatal. Only way to protect yourself is to have padding inside - and even that would be of limited efficacy.

i've been studying modern ballistics for many years. modern body armor is tested by placing the armor against a backing material made of modeling clay. in order for soft or hard body armor to be certified there can be no penetration of the armor (usually after 6 shots fired at different parts of the armor) and the back face signature (the dent in the clay) can be no more than 44mm (1.73"). this might give an indication of acceptable amounts of blunt trauma...

[Ichon]

What if you used Obsidian instead of lead? It would cause a lot of secondary damage when it shatters right?

I dunno... I thought obsidian was relatively light? Density would still be important but many more dense rocks still shatter easily.

[Ichon]

No because the fragments would not have much energy, these are stones, not explosive shells.

Its not about killing shrapnel but the morale and fatigue effects of stones shattering every once in awhile and the dust and small fragments getting into eyes and making small cuts. Not penetrating body cavities like modern shrapnel from shells.

With good shields and good armor slings and arrows both are less lethal but as suppressing fire slings would be better to sustain fire for longer periods with cheap ammo and the draw requiring less energy so slingers could sustain attacks longer. Just to make any advancing formations keeps shields up from a distance and wear on the morale of advancing under fire for a longer period. For veteran disciplined units probably not a big effect but for men who haven't much experience it would contribute something.

[oudysseos]

This is all way too far-fetched - and, might I add, completely unsupported by any contemporary reports or evidence of any kind. Enough.

[Ichon]

This is all way too far-fetched - and, might I add, completely unsupported by any contemporary reports or evidence of any kind. Enough.

When is the last time anyone put a large formation of men together and fired slings at them? Not anywhere near present times. So the best we can do now is test some slings on reconstructed armors and gel etc. Even that is a bit suspect due to the person firing the sling has not been doing it since a child.

So then it is all based on ancient evidence which is not very specific at all. So it is going to be conjecture in large part no matter what. A few descriptions of use, some possible lead and stone bullets, and a few scenes on friezes, vases.

I don't think there is much reason to curtail discussion or thinking about something which has little direct evidence. Its not like anyone is making totally outrageous claims from what I've seen. Far fetched maybe but that is different from outrageous. Obviously ancient armies often had slingers present so there must have been some utility, just as obviously slings fell out of use during wars. Why that happened isn't clear but if slings were obviously superior I doubt that would have occurred though if it were based heavily on the availability of trained/conditioned men that is possible. It might even be as simple as society getting more wealthy and equipping men with more decisive tools.

No accounts I've read indicate slings could stop charges in their tracks or halt a discipline group of men from advancing so in a tactical objective sense they might well have been of lower value and used in ancient war mostly due to availability and less obvious benefits like suppressive fire or outranging many period archers.

Anyway- there is only so much the MTW2 engine can do and it seems the EB team already made its decision how to model slings. No biggie but why not just say that then saying discussion is pointless/boring.

[torongill]

I would like to see some level of lowered defence(due to damaged shields) and lowered morale as an effect of the slingshot bombardment, but I don't know whether that's possible. lowered defence from damaged shields would be a good effect for the roman pila as well, but again I'm not sure that's possible with the engine.