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Thread: EBII Bee Unit

  1. #1

    Default EBII Bee Unit

    Hi,

    I thought I would start another thread rather than disrupt the sling thread, but oudysseos made a passing mention about bees in ancient warfare. Bee units are already implemented in Kingdoms so I think if room permits in the EDU EBII should definitely consider having a bee hive naffatun unit. From my googling, there is some historical record of their use:

    Beeological Warfare

    I just finished reading Holley Bishop's very interesting Robbing the Bees (New York: Free Press, 2005). On pp. 152-153 she discusses the use of bees as weapons in classical antiquity. Some of Bishop's references are easy to track down. One is Herodian 3.9.5 (tr. Edward C. Echols):
    The Hatrenians fought back bravely; pouring down a steady stream of stones and arrows, they did considerable damage to the army of Severus. Making clay pots, they filled them with winged insects, little poisonous flying creatures. When these were hurled down on the besiegers, the insects fell into the Romans' eyes and on all the unprotected parts of their bodies; digging in before they were noticed, they bit and stung the soldiers.
    Note that Herodian doesn't actually mention bees here.

    Another reference is to Aeneas Tacticus 37.3 (tr. Brian Campbell):
    And if at any point the tunnel comes into the ditch, throw the wood and the shavings there and set fire to them. Then cover the rest of the ditch so that the smoke penetrates the tunnel and injures those inside. Indeed it is possible that the smoke will kill many. Some have even released wasps and bees into the opening and caused distress to those in the tunnel.
    The "some" mentioned by Aeneas Tacticus are the inhabitants of Themiscyra, who were besieged by Lucullus in 72 B.C. [Correction here.] See Appian, Mithridatic War 11.78 (tr. Horace White):
    The besiegers of this place brought up towers, built mounds, and dug tunnels so large that subterranean battles could be fought in them. The inhabitants cut openings into these tunnels from above and thrust bears and other wild animals and swarms of bees into them against the workers.
    But one of Bishop's references is more elusive (p. 153):
    For naval battles, the Romans developed special shipboard swarm catapults. They raised bees and kept them in lightweight, fragile earthen hives for the sole purpose of lobbing them onto enemy ships. Angry bees would so unnerve the opposing sailors that they often jumped overboard to escape.
    It is not difficult to find secondary sources which make similar assertions, e.g. Rick Beyer, The Greatest War Stories Never Told (New York: HarperCollins, 2005), p. 37:
    The Romans made such frequent use of beehives in their catapults that some historians feel it contributed to a massive decline in the European bee population during the latter stages of the Roman Empire.
    But where is the ancient evidence? Beyer on p. 203 cites his sources, two of which are articles in Gleanings in Bee Culture unavailable to me: John T. Ambrose, "Bees in Warfare" (Nov. 1973) and Roger Morse, "Bees Go to War" (Oct. 1955). Beyer also cites a web page by Conrad Bérubé, "War and Bees: Military Applications of Apiculture," which I find here. Bérubé states:
    The Romans, for instance, having prudently learned not to exact a tax of honey in Asia Minor also learned, in the great Roman tradition of imitation and innovation, to use bees in the wars they waged. They were less deceptive in this than the Heptakometes, however, and instead of employing the subterfuge of poisoned honey they simply sent beehives catapulting into the ranks or fortifications of their enemies. The unleashed fury of the bees, enraged when their hives were smashed, is credited with being the decisive stroke of more than one battle. Turn-about being fair play the Dacians, of what is today Romania, defeated the armored legions of Rome, at least temporarily, with their own salvo of skeps [7].
    A skep is a beehive. Bérubé's footnote 7, alas, refers only to yet another secondary source, C. Krochmal and A. Krochmal, "Beekeeping in Romania," American Bee Journal 122.5 (1982) 345-346, also unavailable to me.

    Perhaps there are ancient references to catapulted beehives, but in a quick search I haven't found any. Adrienne Mayor's Greek Fire, Poison Arrows and Scorpion Bombs (New York: Overlook Press, 2003) might be one place to look, but its pages are invisible in Google Books.

    I noticed a few minor mistakes in Bishop's book. On p. 238 she calls Herodotus a "Roman historian" (he was Greek and never mentioned Rome), and on p. 239 she calls Vitruvius a Greek (he was a Roman). On p. 247 she mistakenly dates Varro to the first century (should be the first century B.C.). On p. 214 she writes:
    Discussing the best domestic arrangement for bees, Columella wrote in the first century that "It is expedient for the apiary to be under the master's eye." In ancient Greece and Rome, the master was often a male slave known as the melitore.
    So far as I know, there is no such word as melitore in classical Greek or Latin.

    But these are quibbles. I find Bishop's candid admission that she doesn't "know it all" refreshing (p. 323):
    Every year I am humbled, educated, and inspired to learn and know more, and every year I realize how much I don't know....Though I have been keeping bees for years and have researched and written about them for thousands of hours, I still consider myself a beginner.
    Bishop's main informant, beekeeper Donald Smiley, has much the same to say (p. 66):
    [T]here's always more to learn. Not a year goes by that I don't see something different, learn something different. I never get tired of this.
    Smiley (pp. 41-43) and Bishop (p. 282) both admit to some embarrassing mistakes when they first started keeping bees.
    Source: http://laudatortemporisacti.blogspot...l-warfare.html

    So what we have here is precedent for an Armenian/Hatrenian bee naffatun type unit (akin to the one in the Americas campaign) and a Roman and Dacian bee hive alt fire catapult (in place of the horse trebuchet methinks?). I think they would be a great inclusion in the game and add a bit of unit variety to the rosters instead of the jav spam EBI is well known for.

    As I said it shouldn't be hard to add in because the bee mechanic is already in the Americas campaign.
    Last edited by FabiusBile; June 29, 2010 at 10:45 AM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: EBII Bee Unit

    Im guessing no.

  3. #3
    fightermedic's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: EBII Bee Unit

    the question to ask is: why not?

  4. #4

    Default Re: EBII Bee Unit

    Quote Originally Posted by fightermedic View Post
    the question to ask is: why not?
    Limited unit slots?

  5. #5
    Campidoctor
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    Default Re: EBII Bee Unit

    There certainly won't be a "bee naffatun type unit" as all those sources only mention the use of bees in sieges, not regular battles. Plenty of weird and wonderful things have cropped up in seige battles which would never see use in the field, so basing units on them would be highly unhistorical.

    The use of beehives as catapult ammunition could at least be feasible (if there are good sources for it), although I wouldn't get my hopes up if I were you.


  6. #6

    Default Re: EBII Bee Unit

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravager123 View Post
    Im guessing no.
    Darn good guess. EB is not the mod for you if you want swarms of bees.
    οἵη περ φύλλων γενεὴ τοίη δὲ καὶ ἀνδρῶν.
    Even as are the generations of leaves, such are the lives of men.
    Glaucus, son of Hippolochus, Illiad, 6.146



  7. #7

    Default Re: EBII Bee Unit

    Rome - Total Hive

  8. #8
    Space Voyager's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: EBII Bee Unit

    He he he!

  9. #9

    Default Re: EBII Bee Unit

    Lol thanks wasn't hard for me to make that guess . Seen as though they weren't a common sight on the battlefield or in sieges either were they?

  10. #10

    Default Re: EBII Bee Unit

    Quote Originally Posted by bobbin View Post
    The use of beehives as catapult ammunition could at least be feasible
    That would be ing hilarious.

  11. #11
    James the Red's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: EBII Bee Unit

    A deadly bee weapon.

    Bees... my God.
    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_otnpTYg-M0.../beeweapon.jpg
    Last edited by James the Red; July 18, 2010 at 12:02 AM.

  12. #12
    Deutschland's Avatar East of Rome Mod Leader
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    Default Re: EBII Bee Unit

    waepons of buzz destruction - beware!

  13. #13
    Achilla's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: EBII Bee Unit

    Quote Originally Posted by James the Red View Post
    A deadly bee weapon.

    Bees... my God.
    That wouldn't be that stupid, to be honest
    Man is but a shadow of his former self, encased in feverish delusions of grandeur.
    Ignorance is your shield, knowledge is your weapon.
    Heart without reason is stupid, reason without heart is blind.


  14. #14

    Default Re: EBII Bee Unit

    When these were hurled down on the besiegers, the insects fell into the Romans' eyes


    I can't help but think...

    This space intentionally left blank.

  15. #15

    Default Re: EBII Bee Unit

    Quote Originally Posted by Elphir View Post
    [/SIZE]

    I can't help but think...

    what movie is that?

  16. #16

    Default Re: EBII Bee Unit

    That movie is "The Wicker Man" here is the IMDB link. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0450345/

    I watched it a while ago because of the Iron Maiden song of the same name, and I do have to say I thought It was just terrible.
    Sorry for being off topic
    Last edited by Bristan; July 11, 2010 at 10:52 AM.

  17. #17
    Dago Red's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: EBII Bee Unit

    Yeah haha how stupid! bees!

    Next someone's going to suggest we have huge beasts with tusks and giant floppy ears to take into war. Elephants, that'd be a hoot. Hey, some idiot tried to tell me a guy who hated Roma crossed the Alps with an army and he had many of these beasts trained for war, brought them halfway across western Europe, what a joke. Yeah right, everyone knows Elephants just hold each others trunks peacefully.

    Add this to another make believe list with giant crossbow doohickeys and guys who paint themselves blue for battle.

  18. #18

    Default Re: EBII Bee Unit

    Yes, it's the horrible remake. of the otherwise excellent movie The Whicker Man.
    This space intentionally left blank.

  19. #19
    Civis
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    Default Re: EBII Bee Unit

    Quote Originally Posted by Béset View Post
    Rome - Total Hive
    Or how about "Total Swarm"? It rhymes a bit better.

  20. #20

    Default Re: EBII Bee Unit

    Quote Originally Posted by Dago Red View Post
    guys who paint themselves blue for battle.
    Seen the Pritanoi preview?
    οἵη περ φύλλων γενεὴ τοίη δὲ καὶ ἀνδρῶν.
    Even as are the generations of leaves, such are the lives of men.
    Glaucus, son of Hippolochus, Illiad, 6.146



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