Origion of the Huns

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

There is great Controversy about where the huns came from, and a great book about them was written by peter heather in 1995, and the most recent one is posted by constantius, Empires and Barbarians: Migration, Development and the Birth of Europe, and The Fall of the Roman Empire also offers some insight. The Ethnogenic origins of the huns lie in the fact they were an assortment of peoples, turkic and and Mongolic being the most prominent. This places them around the aral and caspian seas, as they also had Iranian peoples in their conglomeration. In fact the huns probably pushed the sarmatians out, like the avares and chionites pushed them out.

[wulfgar610]

But what was their dominant language? Language is the pedigree of nations as Colin McEvedy said.

And I still suspect that Attila was of Asian appearance rather than a 6'6" Glaswegian. I'll go further out on a limb and claim that Attila didn't have a Scottish accent either.

The "Visigoths" at Adrianople were collection of Ostrogoths, Huns, Sarmatians, Greeco-Roman tax protesters, deserting Roman soldiers with a leadership of people fleeing the Visigothic realm. But the Gothic language dominated the group.

Valens quite correctly dismissed them as a rabble.

[Valentinian Victor]

There is great Controversy about where the huns came from, and a great book about them was written by peter heather in 1995, and the most recent one is posted by constantius, Empires and Barbarians: Migration, Development and the Birth of Europe, and The Fall of the Roman Empire also offers some insight. The Ethnogenic origins of the huns lie in the fact they were an assortment of peoples, turkic and and Mongolic being the most prominent. This places them around the aral and caspian seas, as they also had Iranian peoples in their conglomeration. In fact the huns probably pushed the sarmatians out, like the avares and chionites pushed them out.

I believe Thompson wrote a book about the Origin of The Huns. I still lean towards the theory that the Huns were the remnants of those tribes who fought against the Chinese and were heavily defeated and then moved westwards. The Chionites and similar tribes were probably branches of this group who moved around the Caspian Sea and the Black Sea to move through Parthian/Sasanid territory into Northern India. Whilst this initial migration appears to have taken perhaps a couple of centuries to complete, the last 50 years or so before the Huns appeared on the borders of the Roman Empire see's a rapid expansion and movement. It took less than 30 years for the Huns to push out first the Alans and then the Goth's.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

This is a quote from wikipedia
"It is assumed that the Huns also were speakers of an l- and r- type Turkic language and that their migration was responsible for the appearance of this language in the West."
The only surviving lanquage in that group is Chuvash.
My belief is that they were related to Xiognu Remnants, but as I said they were Predominately Mongolic and Turkic. they also are ugrian, tungusic, yeniseian, and iranian amongst others. But as stated by Peter Heather:

"The ancestors of our [4th Century European] Huns could even have been a part of the [1st century] Xiongnu confederation, without being the 'real' Xiongnu. Even if we do make some sort of connection between the fourth-century Huns and the first century Xiongnu, an awful lot of water has passed under an awful lot of bridges in the three hundred years worth of lost history."

this states that there is an awful lot we dont know about here for 300 years. My guess is that the Xiognu and other tribes merged together and were shifted westward by climate or Avares, who eventually extinguished the huns. This supports the Xiognu theory and the fact that they were turko-mongolic

[wulfgar610]

This supports the Xiognu theory and the fact that they were turko-mongolic

The generic term is Altaian in modern classical literatures. Turk and Mongol has got a bad press over the years. Small in number they have contributed at least 2 of the top ten bad guys in history

Maybe they are just misunderstood?.

[Lionheart]

If i'm not wrong the the Huns appear refered as "Black Huns" and the Kidarites as "White Huns"?
Perhaps this is something similar to the history of Ak Koyunlu (the White Sheep Turkomans) and the Kara Koyunlu (Black Sheep Turkomans).
After all i believe that i read that the Huns are one of the many peoples of Turkish origin like a great amount of other peoples.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

Who are the top ten? Im guessing hitler and stalin are at the top...

[Aenima]

Who are the top ten? Im guessing hitler and stalin are at the top...

I'd say Mao would probably be at the top, with Stalin and then Hitler behind.

[Boztorgai_Khan]

Origin of the Huns

the HUNS



1766 BC-336 AD

DATELINE
Time Events
1766 BC Eventually recorded Chinese traditions tell of Kia, 17th member of old Chinese Hia dynasty, dethroned due to evil ways. His son Sunni(Sünni) went with 500 members of his Hia nationality to his Hun relatives. Hia still has many common words with Altaic languages
1766 BC Oldest Turkic words are in Chinese annual chronicles noting cultural and political events. Hun (Hsiung-nu) words tanry, kut, byoryu, ordu, tug, kylych etc are oldest monuments of Turkish language. State rulers’ endoethnonym is Hun, Turkic "man, male, people"
1390 BC First elements of Hun state in highlands of Ordos
1200 BC First Hun state in highlands of Ordos
800 BC Sword myths traditions are all early Anatolian, are also found in Hun and Magyar traditions and mentioned by Herodotus amongst early Scythians
685 BC 685 - 643 BC Rule in Tsi of Huan - hun
679 BC 679 BC Huan - hun organizes a congress of rulers (i.e. kurultai) in Tsi, taking that right from Chjou
659 BC 659 - 621 Rule of Mu-hun in Tsin
500 BC
Persepolis inscription text is "Darius Hystapes (522-486) rex popularum bonorum posui. Hi adorationem igni mihi attulere: Choana, Media, Babilon, Asyria, Guthrata, Armenia, Cappadocia, Sapardia [Sabir], Hunae [European, Caucasian ?]."
450 BC Herodotus World Map (ca. 450 B.C.) shows Agathirsi (Agach-ir=Türk. forest+people), Scythians and Massagets, Malanchleni, Neuri, Budini and Geloni, Thissagets and Jurcae
450 BC Herodotus (IV, 105) reports about wolf cult at Neuri (Nevrs) along Hypanis (Danube) and W. of Borisphen (Buri-Chay = Dnieper) to Tyras (Dniester) together with Budins (Tr. "people, tribe, subjects"). Later wolf was on gold buckle fr Niconia by Dniester
318 BC First historical document connected with Huns is Chinese-Hun treaty signed in 318 BC
300 BC In Chinese sources Alans are one of four Hunnish tribes (Xu-la, Lan, Hiu-bu, Siu-lin) most favored by kings of Eastern Huns (Mao-dun/Mete and his son Ki-ok/Kök) of 3rd century B.C. (ToOD 146). ( Turk. alan ‘field’, akin to 'fieldman', 'polyane', 'polovets')
300 BC Earliest occurrence of Parthian name in form of Aparnoi or Parnoi in Turan. According to Armenian historians who served Armenian dynasty of Parthian origin, Parthian Arsac who founded dynasty was of white Hun (Abdaly/Ephtalite) origin
246 BC Cheng (246-?) of T'sin dynasty, in twenty-sixth year of his reign assumed title of Shi Hwang-ti (first universal emperor), from then on, Chaina sovereign called Wang. Cheng consolidated 4 feudal states into China, and divided empire into thirty-six kiun
246 BC Cheng (246-?) of T'sin dynasty built great wall of China (Wan-li-ch'ang-ch'eng, or wall ten thousand lis long), which extends from Chi-li to Kan-su, to stop incursions of Huns (Hiung-nu)
290 BC Hun state consists of 24 clans, some of them: Kuyan (Jack rabbit) Lan (Orchard) Suybu (West Tribe) Suylyanti Tsulin Taychi Uyti Tsetszuy…
290 BC Hun state leader is titled Great Shanyuy - "Chenli gydu shanyuy" - "Son of endless sky" Succession is from father to eldest son
230 BC Touman (Tumen, 240 - 210 BC), of clan Suylyanti with a bull totem establishes Hunnic Empire
214 BC Chinese ruler Si Huang Ti (259-210 BC) builds Great Chinese Wall against attacks of Huns
209 BC Touman died (Tumen, 240 - 209 BC), accession to throne of Maotun (Batur, 210 - 174 BC), founder of Hun Empire. Expansion of Hun Empire
204 BC HUN EMPIRE
204 B.C - 216 A.D
Area - At north, Siberia; south, Tibet - Kashmir; east, Pacific Ocean; west, Caspian Sea; (Total Area - 18,000,000 Km 2)
Founder - Mete (Bagatir, Maotun, Batur)
200 BC Emergence of Huns on western borders of China
177 BC Mete Khan (Maotun) letter to Chinese government describes that 26 nations are in Turkish sate and all of them became "nations stretching bow-string", or Huns
174 BC Kok-khan (174-161 BC), Huns attack Ku Süns, i.e. White Huns (Kushans, Tocharians, Yüeh-chih), driving them from Gansu
174 BC Nomadic Ku Süns (Kushans, Yu-chi), a powerful force west of China in Gansu (Tr. Khan-Su = Khan's River) attacked and defeated by Huns and driven west, into Kangar (Sogdia, Kangüy, K'ang-chu), from where they invade Bactria (Ta-hsia). Strabo 11.8.2 names them Asii, Pasiani, Tochari, and Sacarauli
150 BC Rise of Hun Empire's puts pressure on territory of Iran dislodging many Scythian nations who were pushed west, including Saka-Uraka whose kings' title was Makar
141 BC 141-128 BC Tochars (Yüeh-chih), fleeing from Huns, overrun Greco-Bactrian kingdom, which is renamed Tocharistan
121 BC Chinese, under General Ho Chu-ping, defeat Huns
60 BC Hou Han Shu 96A.10b: Huns defeated Great Yüeh-chih, who went west, became rulers of Baktria, and Sai king (wang) went southwards and became ruler(s) of Chi-pin, forming several kingdoms (Asses dynasties?) NW of Kashgar (Su-le): Hsiu-hsiin and Yilan-tu
56 BC First split of Hun Empire into Western and Eastern branches Qoghoshar (Khukheniy I) (56 - 36 BC)
50 BC Dionisios Periegetos: Already in 1-st century BC, (European, Caucasian ?) Huns dominate over all Caspian lands
48 BC WESTERN HUN EMPIRE
48 BC - 216 A.D
Founder – Panu
Area - area over present Central Asia
60 After Jazyges left Pontic steppes, Rhoxolans' possessions began to border Lower Danube and Roman Moesia. During Nero time (69 AD.) they invaded Moesia
91 Western (Nothern) Huns suffer a major defeat from Chinese forces and disperse
100 Roxolans (Türk. Uraksy Alans, i.e. ‘Alans-farmers’) pushed Romans on the Lower Danube in 2-nd and in 3-rd c. In the 2-nd c. AD. Rhoxolan nomads expanded their domination over local nomadic and settled tribes to the west, down to Lower Danube and Carpathians
124 Dionysius Periegetes (the guide) Orbis terrae descriptio map showing (European, Caucasian ?) Huns (Unni), Caspii, Massagets (on opposite bank of Itil from Huns), Sacii, Alani, Scyths, Hyrcanii, Sarmats, Taurii
124 Dionisus Periegetes (end of 1st - beginning of 2nd c.) maps and talks that on Northwestern side of Caspian sea live Scythians, Uns, Caspians, Albanians, and Kaduses, of Huns living next to Caspian Sea Sak (Gr. Sacae)=Turkco-Persian saka=water carrier
128 Ticitus: Emperor Hadrian (117-138 AD) pays Roxolans annual tribute and allows their transit by Roman roads through Dacia with Iazyges, who lived along Tissa
139 (European) Huns living next to Dnieper in Eastern Europe. Ptolemaus Claudius geographer, B.3 Ch.5 calls them Khuni (Chuni) and Suni. (Khuni is clan/national designation while Suni is probably from Senyu, their ruler)
139 Ptolemy (83?-161? AD) writes that in European Sarmatia ‘below Agathyrsi (Akatsirs, Türk. agach ers ‘forest people’) live Savari (Türkic Suvars), between Basternae and Rhoxolani live (European) Huns
139 Ptolemy lists Roxolans east from Alans-Scythians, i.e. between Lower Dniepr and Don, in steppes beyond Don,
150 Burial rite of Scythians and Huns is strikingly uniform: same barrows, burial frames of logs and thick timbers, burial blocks, sacrificial horses etc. Relics of Hun burials are well known in whole space of former Scythian territory: on coast of Black Sea, along Danube (so called Scythia Minor), in Northern Caucasus and other areas
155 Between 155 and 166 Hsien-pi/Hsien-pei/Xienbi/Syanbinians (Tungus-future Mongols) confederates under Tian-Shih-huai (in Ch. rendition) conduct a series of campaigns against Western (Nothern) Hun dominance, leading Huns to major defeat and start westward migration (93-c.380)
155 End of Huns as a major power in inner Asia
166 Major defeat of Huns by Hsien-pi/Xienbi/Syanbinians, who shifted to Orkhon-Selenga basin and formed a nucleus replacing Huns as dominant tribe in Western (Nothern) Hun Empire, over old Hun's territory from Wusün in the west, Dinlins (Ch. Ting-ling) in the north, Fu-yü in the east, and Chinese Great Wall in the south, spanning approximately 4,000 li (1,663 km) east-west, and 7,000 li (2,911 km) north to south.
166 Hsien-pi/Xienbi/Syanbinian EMPIRE

216 End of HUN EMPIRE
204 B.C - 216 A.D
Area - At north, Siberia; south, Tibet - Kashmir; east, Pacific Ocean; west, Caspian Sea; (Total Area - 18,000,000 Km 2)
Founder - Mete (Bagatir)
216 End of WESTERN HUN EMPIRE
48 - 216 A.D
Founder – Panu
Area - area over present Central Asia
216 Western Hun Empire separates into 5 successor states (215-290)
Tele (Gaogyuys)

260 In 60's of 3-rd century, Caucasian Huns served in Persian army of Sasanid Shapur I (241-272)
266 Unification of China. Hun rebellion is suppressed
275 EUROPEAN HUN EMPIRE 275 – 454
A.D Founder - brothers Muncuk, Oktar, Rua & Aybars of Dulo clan (Dulo = Tele)
Area - S Russia, Romania, N Yugoslavia, Hungary, Austria, Chekoslovakia, S& C Germany. From E France to Urals; from N.Hungary to Byzantine Empire (Area - 4,000,000 Km2)
290 In 90's of 3-rd century, Armenian sources write about Hun wars in Trans-Caucasus (N.Caucasus)
290 ca 250-800 AD Archeological finds of Hinnish time in Itil and Urals area with inscriptions in Hunno-Kypchak (aka Turanian) alphabet
300 Tele left early Huns Horde, keeping patriarchal relations and nomadic life. They were not Sinadized. They move on steppes on carts with high wheels
300 In Chinese annals Gaogyuys – Tele are listed as branch of Huns
300 Genealogy: Gaogüys =>Tele =>15 tribes =>
1 Uange (Uygurs)
2 Seyanto (Sir + Yanto)
3 Kibi
4 Dubo (Tubalar)(Dabo)(Tele)
5 Guligan (Kurykan)(Yakut)
6 Dolange (Telengits)
7 Bugu (Pugu)(Uygurs)
8 Bayegu (Baiyrku)(Uygurs)
9 Tunlo (Tongra)(Uygurs)
10 Hun
11 Sygye (Uygurs)
12 Husye
13 Higye
14 Adye(Eduz)
15 Baysi (Barsil)
300 Sirs and Türks live at Ordos
304 Huns and Syanbinians conquered from China Han Empire northern part and established a sequence of kingdoms. Predominantly Chinese population was led by Hun’s Toba tribe.
309 Hun's raid eased by rebellion of (Chinese) people against officials
309 Intrigues of Emperor Huai-di against Sym Yuy. Chinese aliance with Tabgach Khan Ilu against Huns
310 Hun-Maskuts (Gr. Massagets), together with Sakas, led by king of Massagetae Sanesan invade Armenia in beg. of 4 century (336?) (Tr. Sen-esen=you+storming (man))
311 Defeat of Sym Yuy. Fall of Loyan, Huns take Chanan
312 Chinese displace Huns from Chanan
312 Small Syanbinian tribe with Khans from Muyun family moved from southern Manjuria to west and settled in proximity of lake Kukunor. They fought Tibetans successfully and Tobases unsuccessfully
312 Syanbinian tribe with Muyun Khans were organized into kingdom Togon and became vassals of Empire Wey
320 Muyun Khoy becomes Great Shanuy
321 Tsu Ti dies, and Chinese advance against Huns stopped
325 China loses lands north of river Huai
334 First mention of Bulgars, they live in basin of Tanais and Cuban
336 Türkic names of European Hun rulers
Karaton (kadadon= dress)
Mundjuk, Attila's father (bondjus = bead, tirquose)
Attila (Itil= birthplace, or Ata-il = father of country)
Illek, Attila's son (Il-Ek = country fortress)
Dengizik, Attila's son (Den(g)iz = Sea)
Irnek, Attila's son (=young soldier)
Aibars, Attila's uncle (= bars, lion)
Oktar, Attila's uncle (= )
Ary Kan (aryg-kan = beautiful Quinn)
Basyk
Kursyk
Atakam
Eshkam
336 Türkic names of Hun rulers (cont'd)
Nation
Agacheri (Forrest people)
Shar (sary - ak, = yellow - white)
Ogur (Ok-gur = ten federates)
Potential link of ruling family with Asian Tankhu (king)

Notes

Yu.L.Zuev, Ethnic History of Usuns, Kazakh SSR Academy of Sciences Publishing House, Alma-Ata, 1960, p.12
Hsiung-nu is one of Chinese derogatory monikers for Huns, with a meaning “ferocious slaves”. There were more respectful names for Huns in Chinese, like “western nomads”, etc. It is doubtful that scholars are not aware of the derogatory nature of the Chinese terms. Chinese also had plenty of derogatory terms for themselves too, but, unlike “Hsiung-nu/Hiung-nu/Xiong Nu etc.”, these terms are not used in the scientific literature to designate Chinese.
Iakinf (Vol. 2. SPb, 1828) tells us that in Chinese hieroglyphic rendering, the sign selected for “Hun” is a “malicious slave” hieroglyph, and the sign for “Gun” is a “respectful slave” hieroglyph.
Most ancient Chinese texts bearing information about Türkic-speaking tribes already contained a number of ethnonyms with distinctive ending, graphically usually conveyed by the same hieroglyphs: Hun (anc. reading giuən) and Kun (kiən), i.e. gün, kün. As shown by L.Bazen, the form of gün/ kün is identical to the ancient Türkic plural-collective affix -gün-/ -kgün- , ascending to the primary Türkic word kün - people - human collective - tribe - woman - custodian of home hearth - femininity.
Affirming mutuality of gün/ kün = "woman" = "people" concepts, bound in the beginning by kinship bonds, and then by common ethnic origin, allows to add Chinese rendition of that term to the codex of ancient Türkic social terminology. Significantly, sporadically appearing in the ancient Türkic monuments kün - clan, family completely coincides with the translation of the Chinese transcription hun = gün/ kün in the group Lu-Hun (Six Hüns), equivalent to the group lu-si "six clans", where si is generation, clan. And the compositions of the 5th-10th centuries have descriptions of tribes Hün (Gün) and Kün (Kgün), which names are compatible only with the Hün of the early Chinese chronicles and Kün of the Orhono-Enisei inscriptions. Folk legends of ethnic alliances which included these tribes ascend their origin to Sünnu-Hunnu, known in the western antique sources under a name Hüns (Yu.L.Zuev, Ethnic History of Usuns, Kazakh SSR Academy of Sciences Publishing House, Alma-Ata, 1960, p.11).
In the transcription of the Greek and Syrian authors the term "Hun" is transmited Hion (Gün) and Kionaye (Kion-Kün) (N.V.Pigulevskaya. Syrian sources on history of peoples of the USSR. M. - L., 1941, p. 37, 39)

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

I'd say Mao would probably be at the top, with Stalin and then Hitler behind.

Anyone living in eastern Europe (except for the russian immigrants) would agree that stalin was at the top.

[wulfgar610]

Anyone living in eastern Europe (except for the russian immigrants) would agree that stalin was at the top.

Stalin makes it to the top of the list most times. If I had to choose between the two for company I'd go for Hitler.

[wulfgar610]

Who are the top ten? Im guessing hitler and stalin are at the top...

The Amazing thing about Attila is 1600 years later he is still top 10.

[Valentinian Victor]

Whilst the Huns definately had an impact on the Roman Empire at all levels, its amazing for how short a time they came and went from the pages of Roman history.

[wulfgar610]

Whilst the Huns definately had an impact on the Roman Empire at all levels, its amazing for how short a time they came and went from the pages of Roman history.

It's amazing how short human history is. I've been listening to my mother moan and whinge for 50 years, that's 1/100 of the 5,000 years of human history.
Actually the Huns were a major threat on the Roman borders for almost a century.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

cool +rep!

[Boztorgai_Khan]

cool +rep!

Thank You..

[wulfgar610]

Thank You..

No, thank you! Excellent post.

[Boztorgai_Khan]

Thank You.. Again for your words

@: Magister Militae Flavius Aetius & wulfgar610

For More Information, Pictures ect can you find in this thread.

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=190768

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

np, you seem to have extensive knowledge of recorded peoples reffered to as "huni"

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

And they did more to help the western empire than to hurt it IMHO