Is Poland (as a part of the EU) better off than Russia

[PolishLiberal]

Compering current standard of living in Poland and Russia is funny

According to all sources, Polish PPP per capita is higher than Russian one.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...%29_per_capita

Life expectancy in Poland is also higher than the one in Russia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ife_expectancy

People in Poland enjoy a better standard of living than people in Russia.

[Nikitn]

And then accuse Radoslaw of bias? I don't think so. If you think that making photos of how actually russian countryside looks like (including such pictures) is biased, then it only speaks what you know about Russia.

Some of those homes were not average in any way. 1 of them looked like it was completely abandoned. Sure countryside doesn't look good but it isn't worse than Polish - as we saw from the link I posted.

Also homes are much more comfortable than they look (vast majority of them containing TV and running water, etc). Village life isn't that bad.

Compering current standard of living in Poland and Russia is funny

According to all sources, Polish PPP per capita is higher than Russian one.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...%29_per_capita

A bit above due 2 the EU. If not for the EU, probably far below Russian.

Life expectancy in Poland is also higher than the one in Russia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ife_expectancy

People in Poland enjoy a better standard of living than people in Russia.

Some people live until their 100 years old, others die when their 30's. It has 2 do with social conditions. Russian infant mortality is ~0,7%. A bit below Western European nations.

PS. Did you check out my link, showing how average glorious Polish village is?

[intel]

Some of those homes were not average in any way. 1 of them looked like it was completely abandoned. Sure countryside doesn't look good but it isn't worse than Polish - as we saw from the link I posted.

As if someone had praised total superiority of polish countryside? No. What's your point of your discussion? Perhaps that particular village was very poor, but it doesn't change the fact that it exists.

Also homes are much more comfortable than they look (vast majority of them containing TV and running water, etc). Village life isn't that bad.

It isn't, but it's not super either.

A bit above due 2 the EU. If not for the EU, probably far below Russian.

Pointless and mindless. Before EU Poland had already higher GDP, life expectancy and so. It's not that EU is some kind of magical fairy magically creating huge rise of GDP. Why would it be "far below russian" if it wasn't before EU (actually was above) in the first place?

Some people live until their 100 years old, others die when their 30's. It has 2 do with social conditions. Russian infant mortality is ~0,7%. A bit below Western European nations.

This doesn't change the fact that overall life expectancy- as shown in the link- is far below Poland. Russia still has do deal with huge alcoholism problem-especially in the east- and various attrocities in Caucasus and unequal distribution of wealth.

PS. Did you check out my link, showing how average glorious Polish village is?

It does not show average polish village. Actually, it is stated in the very same link that it's picture of dying out poorest, wooden buildings.

[Nikitn]

1. Russia had a MUCH higher GDP PPP than Poland b4 the collapse in 1990's. If we would compare Russia (who has rebuilt) to Poland without EU (who receives aid equivalent of 1/6 of total Polish GDP) it is pretty obvious who would have bigger.
2. IT DOES show average Polish village. It says FROM BOTH PAST AND PRESENT.
3. Polish liberal: those statistics are from the 1990's. Already in 2009 it was announced that infant mortality rate has sunk to 0,8%. Last time I checked Polands infant mortality rate wasn't 0,23. But I guess things are sometimes blurry for you? That wikipedia article is clearly outdated and retarded.

And lets be honest mate, Poland would be just another poor Ukraine-like eastern European country without the EU . Though now Poland is used as a base for cheap labour by the EU, and her population immigrate to all over Europe.

4. (edited - VP) You have been debunked dozens of times. Russian villages are NOT like those radislaw posted (with 2 abandoned houses, which he claimed were genuine Russian homes.. lawl), so he basically picked the worst house he saw and took a picture of it (while he took a few pictures of Polish villas for oligarchs, and said "here is Polish rural life"... lmao). Village life isn't pretty but no1 lives in abandoned shacks with overgrown grass and garbage everywhere. Here is a Russian village community, including popular drivehouse.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

5. Adar, just a year ago there were widespread riots in Estonia. Polish agricultural industry is extremely inefficient and backward, having not improved at all since Communist times. During Communist times agriculture was almost entirely privately owned, and this has not changed. Polish villages are, in general, no better than Russian ones.

[PolishLiberal]

Russia had a MUCH higher GDP PPP than Poland b4 the collapse in 1990's. If we would compare Russia (who has rebuilt) to Poland without EU (who receives aid equivalent of 1/6 of total Polish GDP) it is pretty obvious who would have bigger

(editd - vp) Polish GDP PPP in 2004(the year Poland entered EU) was 12700.471 $
http://www.indexmundi.com/poland/gdp...%28ppp%29.html

Russian GDP PPP in 2004 was 10740.06 $
http://www.indexmundi.com/russia/gdp...%28ppp%29.html

Poland was poor in early '90s because between 1945 and 1989 USSR has stolen many things from our country, starting with clocks and finishing on meat.

[Nikitn]

Lie. Polish GDP PPP in 2004(the year Poland entered EU) was 12700.471 $
http://www.indexmundi.com/poland/gdp...%28ppp%29.html

Russian GDP PPP in 2004 was 10740.06 $
http://www.indexmundi.com/russia/gdp...%28ppp%29.html

LULZ? You do realize that Russia had BARELY gotten out of a huge economic crisis by 2004? Russia was enjoying an extremely high growth rate since early 2000-2008, far higher than Polish growth rate in 1991-2003 (on average ~ 5%). Also average Russian GDP PPP was far higher than polish in 1991.

Poland was poor in early '90s because between 1945 and 1989 USSR has stolen many things from our country, starting with clocks and finishing on meat.

Uhh? Poland launched a landgrab against a country that was in a civil war during the 1920's. Poland was punished in 1939.

Soviet Union saved Polish population from certain extermination in 1944-1945.

Be happy. People like my grandfather are the reason you are alive, and that your grandmother wasn't killed in some slave labour or executed.

[intel]

1. Russia had a MUCH higher GDP PPP than Poland b4 the collapse in 1990's.

Who cares? We may also argue that in 1573 Poland was much richer than Muscovy. It doesn't matter.

If we would compare Russia (who has rebuilt) to Poland without EU (who receives aid equivalent of 1/6 of total Polish GDP) it is pretty obvious who would have bigger.

Without EU Poland was already richer than Russia. Poland does not recieve 1/6 of it's GDP in EU funds. Actually, it's 1%. If you have sources that claim that Poland recieves 100 billion of Euro each year (sic!) then please, provide us with them.

2. IT DOES show average Polish village. It says FROM BOTH PAST AND PRESENT.

Where does it claim that it shows average polish village? Please, elaborate.

3. Polish liberal: those statistics are from the 1990's. Already in 2009 it was announced that infant mortality rate has sunk to 0,8%.

Well, CIA's World's Factbook, UN statistics and such claim completly otherwise. PolishLiberal already provided you with data.

Last time I checked Polands infant mortality rate wasn't 0,23. But I guess things are sometimes blurry for you? That wikipedia article is clearly outdated and retarded.

I won't say who's retarded there. I think that every user reading your troll-posts gets a clear image.

And lets be honest mate, Poland would be just another poor Ukraine-like eastern European country without the EU

It wasn't at all, then why would it be?

Though now Poland is used as a base for cheap labour by the EU, and her population immigrate to all over Europe.

And so? It helps Polish people get richer. Russian do not have such opportunity and instead are stripped off of any chances to improve their life and earnings.

4. Intel, stop posting stupidity.

Like?

You have been debunked dozens of times.

By whom? You? Really?

Russian villages are NOT like those radislaw posted (with 2 abandoned houses, which he claimed were genuine Russian homes.. lawl)

They are. Sorry. Have you even been to Russia? Or you just sit in Norway and try to irritate everyone or make negative impressions of Russians?

so he basically picked the worst house he saw and took a picture of it (while he took a few pictures of Polish villas for oligarchs, and said "here is Polish rural life"... lmao).

Your poor jokes aside, do you suggest that Radoslaw has an agenda in innacurately presenting Russian countryside? Seriously?

Here is a Russian village community, including popular drivehouse.

Well, if that isn't self-contradiction at it's best, then I don't know what it is.

Polish villages are, in general, no better than Russian ones.

Perhaps. But at least Poles do not wage e-crusades against reality.


I suggest to put the off-topic remarks in spoilers.

[thrashing_mad]

1. Poland has gotten massive aid from EU, like the 68 Billions sent into Poland through the cohesion funds. Russian GDP PPP per capita is just a bit lower than Polish. Back during the 2000's Polish economic growth had stopped, but started 2 resume once Poland got more and more integrated into the EU

Really? Here, take a look at GDP per capita ranking in 2004 (Poland entered EU in May of that year):

http://www.photius.com/rankings/econ...ta_2004_0.html

As you can see Poland ranked #61, while Russia #67.

[Radosław Sikora]

you are so funny it is unbelievable.

You take pictures from rich Polish suburban areas,

This is Pomeranian villege. Pomerania is not the most wealthy Polish province. And this is not more urban area than many other in Poland. Density of population in Poland is about 120 ppl/km2. It is roughly 15 times more than density of population of Russia. Distances between villages, towns and cities in Poland are much smaller than in Russia.

and compare them 2 the VERY WORST areas of a Russian suburb/village?

I didn't know that Western Russia (between Smoleńsk and Moscow) is the worst area in Russia

ya I've been in Polish countryside. You can find places just as bad as those you took pictures of

Do you have some your pictures? Could you show us?

(obviously the worst u could fine) in Russia.

Not the worst, but the only ones I have . I am really not interested in Russian villages unless they are situated in historical places.
If these historical places are the worst in Russia, could you explain why? Is it some Russian politician to make these historical places the worst?

Polish and Russian GDP PPP per capita is similar.

No, it is not. Polish one is about 120% of Russian one.
But more important is another thing. Russian GDP PPP per capita says nothing about average standard of life. Russian PPP per capita is higher (117%) than Belarussian one, but it is Belarus which has HDI higher than Russia.
Polish society is more egalitarian than Russian one. Therefore the wealth of the Poland is divided more fair among people. Look at Polish HDI (0,880). It is much higer than Russian one (0,817). source

Average Polish villages http://cgi.rootsweb.com/~pollubel/rural/cottage.htm

Ultra modern and rich, as you see.

Have you read the description from the site?
"I hope that this page is able to show something of Polish rural architecture from the past and the present"
It shows you are biased very much.

Let's leave your inferiority complex and come back to Belarus, ok?

[Adar]

Estonia is, in general, even worse.

No, Estonia is doing quite well. The crisis hurt badly but they are the baltic state with the fastest recovery and doing better than most European nations

source
Bank of Estonia spokesman Viljar Raask told AFP Wednesday that "according to the forecast" Estonia remains on target to join the eurozone in January 2011 and will manage to fulfil the required Maastricht criteria.
Brussels has repeatedly said Estonia is on track to meet the target, but it still requires an official EU green light, expected in July.
"According to our calculations, the budget deficit will be 2.2 percent of GDP in 2010, 2.3 percent in 2011, and 1.8 percent in 2012 - well below the Maastricht 3.0 percent of GDP limit," Raask said.
"Inflation in 2010 will be 1.3 percent, 1.1 percent in 2011 and 1.3 percent in 2012, according to the forecast," Raask added.

1. Why do you take pictures of houses like those? Maybe you should visit mighty rich Polish countryside, and take a few pictures?
2. Anyway I have serious doubts that house in particular is inhabited. I've seen houses like those abandoned.

I actually got some very similar pictures from North Eastern Poland (the poorest part). They are taken when I went from Warsaw to the reenactment of the battle of Grunwald/Tannenberg. The main road from Warsaw was filled with cars (roads in Poland are of decent quality but they just doesn't have the necessary capacity on weekends) so we went through the more rural parts.

In general I am positively surprised by the Polish countryside (I am Swedish and my previous experience of Eastern European rural areas where from Kaliningrad and going by train Bratislava-Budapest-Belgrade). My guess is that the high quality of the soil have allowed the rural areas to develop quickly after the fall of communism.

The worst house I have seen so far after driving in Poland* (Gdansk-Kaliningrad, Warsaw-Vilnius, Warsaw-Grunwald, Warsaw-Kazimierz and Krakow-Bratislava) is actually the Ph.D student hotel I lived in during my stay in Poland. I have attached pictures from my travels through the Polish countryside. The first pictures are from Warsaw-Grunwald, the 2nd last is the Ph.D student hotel and the final picture is from between Zakopane and the Slovakian border.

As you can see, being a farmer is far more comfartable than being a Ph.D student in Poland .

*Gdansk-Kaliningrad, Warsaw-Vilnius, Warsaw-Grunwald, Warsaw-Kazimierz and Krakow-Bratislava.

[PolishLiberal]

Russian infant mortality is ~0,7%. A bit below Western European nations

This is a lie.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...mortality_rate
Poland - 6.7/1000
Russia - 16.6/1000

Seems like Polish infant mortality is almost 3 times smaller than the Russian one. But I guess its because of the EU

[Radosław Sikora]

So I take pictures of some "gangsta" neighborhood in US and than take pictures of some rich neighborhood in Zimbabwe. According to your logic, Zimbabwe > US. Right?

I didn't compare the most wealthy village in Poland to the poorest villages in Russia, so your suposition is false. I have compared villages, where something important from historical point of view happened.

If you want to compare the most wealthy and the poorest village in Poland, here you are.

According to 'Newsweek' (34/2004) the poorest Polish village is Rudnik (in Krasnystaw powiat). Below are some pictures from the village I was able to find in internet.
Attachment 94298 Attachment 94299 Attachment 94300 Attachment 94301
source


The most wealthy Polish village is Kleszczów. The gallery of the village is here.

And now, come back to Belarus, please.

Back to the Bealrus though.
Radoslaw, it's not that Russia is stopping economical support of Belarus. It's quite contrary anyway. You may remember that recently Russian budget included dozens of billions of RUB for aiding Belarus.

I didn't know about it. Could you write something more about it?

[PolishLiberal]

Steal from Poland would be like stealing from a hobo. Poland was a weak, poor country.

Yes, we were a weak, poor country. Because Russia has stolen many our belongings.

As for your (edited -- vp) infant mortality rate claims: throw them in garbage bin. Russian statistical services say 0,8%. Then it is 0,8%

That explains all

[Plan C]

The most wealthy Polish village is Kleszczów. The gallery of the village is here.

They sure have a lot of butt-ugly churches. I can design a far nicer church and I can't even draw.

[pickelhaube]

To be fair polish food is 100 times better than Ukrianian/russian food.

Be it taste, variety in supermarkets or quality.

Oh yes and prices are almost same. Go figure then who has worse agriculture.

[Nikitn]

OK, some facts:

1. Poland has gotten massive aid from EU, like the 68 Billions sent into Poland through the cohesion funds. Russian GDP PPP per capita is just a bit lower than Polish. Back during the 2000's Polish economic growth had stopped, but started 2 resume once Poland got more and more integrated into the EU.

2. I don't give a what Wikipedia or the CIA says. They can suck my balls. Pure, reliable facts clearly say a 0,8 morality rate among infants. This is according 2 Russian statistical services.

3. Radyslaw: Those aren't villages. Those are towns. Here are some Polish villages:







HERE are typical Polish villages. Do not try 2 deceive us. I have been in Poland, riding on bus 2 Krakow. Lots of poverty in Poland as well as in Russia though there is a different world inside Polish cities than Polish countryside.

http://cgi.rootsweb.com/~pollubel/rural/cottage.htm
In this link, they say things like "A small farmstead near Lublin. The region abounds with such properties" or "Traditional accommodation for all but the rich were wooden cottages up until this century. As brick replaced these wooden buildings, many of the architectural features were retained. One of the most noticeable is the way the roofs are a snug fit on the walls. Later, in the last 20 or 30 years, roofs have grown and now it is not uncommon for a roof to overhang the supporting walls by about 80 cm. This style of building can be seen from the Baltic down to the Black Sea and the Mediterranean."

"This is a very typical cottage of the region, as it is seen from the end you can not tell much about its size."

As you know I have always been extremely unbiased concerning Poland, and I would just like 2 show this. The source clearly talks about Polish rural poverty..... sorry mate.

[PolishLiberal]

Back during the 2000's Polish economic growth had stopped, but started 2 resume once Poland got more and more integrated into the EU.

. In 2000 Polish GDP PPP was 10305.363 $. In 2003 it was 11741.431 $.
http://www.indexmundi.com/poland/gdp...%28ppp%29.html

2. I don't give a what Wikipedia or the CIA says. They can suck my balls. Pure, reliable facts clearly say a 0,8 morality rate among infants. This is according 2 Russian statistical services.

[Radosław Sikora]

1. Poland has gotten massive aid from EU, like the 68 Billions sent into Poland through the cohesion funds.

Could you write your source?

Russian GDP PPP per capita is just a bit lower than Polish.

We were talking about it already. Polish GDP PPP per capita is about 120% of Russia one.

Back during the 2000's Polish economic growth had stopped,

Have you ever heard about business cycles?
Look at this This is the graph which shows the growth of Polish economy in the period of 1996-2006.

but started 2 resume once Poland got more and more integrated into the EU.

As you can see at the graph, table 1, and here Polish economical growth was in its peak before Poland enetered UE (+6,9% in the first quarter 2004). Then it drooped to only 2,1% in the first quarter of 2005. I'll remind you that Poland is in UE since May, 2004.
So where do you have any recovery after May 2004?

[Nikitn]

Could you write your source?

wikipedia.

We were talking about it already. Polish GDP PPP per capita is about 120% of Russia one.

Which is only a bit more.

Have you ever heard about business cycles?
Look at this



As you can see at the graph, table 1, and here Polish economical growth was in its peak before Poland enetered UE (+6,9% in the first quarter 2004). Then it drooped to only 2,1% in the first quarter of 2005. I'll remind you that Poland is in UE since May, 2004.
So where do you have any recovery after May 2004?

What are you talking about? Poland was becoming more and more integrated into EU since 2003-2004. Thats why the growth was ~4% in 2004, while ~1% in 2000.

Russias growth since 2002-2008 was very strong. Polish economic growth only increased due 2 joining of EU.

Radislaw, I don't really give a of what you say. Poland has been known for serious poverty. Those pictures are made by byciclists. I rather trust pictures than your words and propaganda.

Also, statistics agree with me.


also, poland is barely richer than Russia, so level of ppl below poverty line is around the same, I guess.

[PolishLiberal]

What are you talking about? Poland was becoming more and more integrated into EU since 2003-2004. Thats why the growth was ~4% in 2004, while ~1% in 2000.

Polish economical growth in 2000 was 7.08 %. In 2004 it was 8.17 %. Not much of a difference.