Rioting in Paris

[danzig]

First off yeah Im posting this for a reason mainly because we always seem to focus on American conflict involving race/poor when really the same problems exist around the world and suprised (ok well Im not) that people dont rush to comment when it happens else where. The thing that suprises me is attacking a politican who attempts to crack down/address the problem from the article this is a long standing problem in that particular area that has existed from decades. But again hilights conflict between different cultures that seem to keep getting worse namely Islam in a western country.

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/eu...eut/index.html

[Erik]

Sadly topics that don't include the US generally die out very fast in this forum.

Now about the story:
These promblems do exist for a long time, but I disagree that it has anything to do with Islam.
The people living in those areas are mainly immigrants (France gets lots of immigration from their formar African colonies), and there is a lot of poverty there.
And I am convinced it's poverty, not religion, that causes crime and violence.
There kinds of riots happen in the US too with (mainly christian) Afro-Americans.
So is Christianity to blame for them in the US?

Sarkozy isn't to blame for the problems because they existed long before he became minister.
But his tough approach seems to made it worst.
Therefore he does deserve some critisism.

I agree with Fabius when he said:

"We need to act at the same time on prevention, repression, education, housing, jobs ... and not play the cowboy."

ps: I am glad they have gun control in France, because if it was bullets in stead of rocks there would be more than 6 wounded for sure.

[Peachy Carnehan]

Sadly topics that don't include the US generally die out very fast in this forum.

Yeah, not much room for bashing.

[danzig]

ps: I am glad they have gun control in France, because if it was bullets in stead of rocks there would be more than 6 wounded for sure.

There we some shootings (read the article) so evidently some people in France can get around gun control as well and as another poster pointed out yeah being set on fire is so much better then being shot I wasnt trying to blame Islam btw just pointing out that the major cause for cultural conflict is the same as the US, generally limited to a particular group. Poverty is without a doubt the biggest 'cause' of it though, I agree. As I said I had a specific reason for posting this in that its been generally ignored and the fact that the same problems exist thru out the world but yet we focus/magnify the ones in the US.

It's situations like this that make me depressed about how uninformed so many Americans are about world events. If I walk up to someone on the street and say, "Hear about those riots in Paris?"

True it is sad, hell I dont even remember CNN or Fox even covering this story the past few days but what is also somewhat depressing is that a group of neo nazis spark a riot in a US city spawned a 4 page thread by alot of non americans but this has been going on for past few days hasnt prompted a single post until this one.

[Fenris]

Sadly topics that don't include the US generally die out very fast in this forum.

That's because there is not much to say. If a country could brag of not having these kinds of incidents, well I'd like to know. Because, sadly, apparently, humans are... humans...

EDIT: Oh and also, it's also because much less people will try to defend blindly the other countries like many americans will do for their country.

[Francisco Montana]

Oh and also, it's also because much less people will try to defend blindly the other countries like many americans will do for their country.

"and I'll gladly stand up, next to you and defend her still today...
Cause there ain't no doubt that I love this land, God bless the U.S.A."



Don't be mad that we love our country. I love England, Sweden, Ireland, Scotland, Norway, Germany, France (yes, even France), Isreal, Egypt, Brazil, Poland, The Philipines, hell, should I keep going?

What's wrong with loving your country. It's your mother, your provider....your home.

[Fenris]

"and I'll gladly stand up, next to you and defend her still today...
Cause there ain't no doubt that I love this land, God bless the U.S.A."



Don't be mad that we love our country. I love England, Sweden, Ireland, Scotland, Norway, Germany, France (yes, even France), Isreal, Egypt, Brazil, Poland, The Philipines, hell, should I keep going?

What's wrong with loving your country. It's your mother, your provider....your home.

There's no problem with that, but there's a difference between loving your country and defending it blindlessly. Because I think that if you really love your country, you will be able to denounce decisions, or be against some part of the political system, because your country is NOT your politicians.

[Sidus Preclarum]

There's no problem with that, but there's a difference between loving your country and defending it blindlessly.

The difference between patriotism and nationalism.
Like the difference between either defending you wife nail and teeth when she has commited a criminal offence, or accepting her facing justice, and once it is over, telling her, "Come, come, Madam. I still love you well."

back on topic :
Reducting the phenomenon to "Islam" is silly, though the grenade in the mosque sure has added oil on the fire. Just like a grenade in any other meeting place would have.
Mainly, it is 30 yo problem dating back from the very creation of those "banlieues": It is a social problem, and an urbanism problem.
I mean, almost the same riots occured ecxactly 15 years ago in Vaux-en-Velin, for similar reasons. And before, in 1981, in les Minguettes, Venissieux.
We see that the problem has nothing to do with this so-called "Islamic Peril" that some people , jumping on this unrelated occasion, try to persuade us of, but the fact that those zones regroup parts of the French population which ecomnomical difficulties have
That those people, or some of them, could at least partly be hold responsible of their economic situation is here entirely irrelevant. The problem *here* is, they are *regrouped* in quasi-ghettos _ created during the post-war years of econmic growth_ that have existed *since , setting a vicious circle of economic unsuccess, and *this* is the responsability of the *entire* country. Furthermore : that the dialogue _begun after 1990 and with the creation of the ministère de la ville_between the authorities and "les jeunes" has been entirely interupted is *entirely* the fault of the current gvt, which has ruined then years-worth of effort at creating and maintaining a dialogue, by suppressing the "police de proximité" and, by shunning the educating role of the police, and indeed cutting the credits that could be used for civil educators, favourising the repressive role of the police, thus re-establishing the antagonism between the state and the inhabitants. Now, somehow, our oh-so-clever leaders wonder at the lack of control the few educators left can exert on their supposed protégés they can't control anymore...
In other words, the French society has created, *out of her own prosperity*, a monster, or let it be created, that it now has to cope with.
SO I have yet to see where Islam interneves in the equation... Unless the workers in the rots of 1848 or 1868 , or the medieval Jacques, or any other "laissez pour comptes" of the economic sytem, were all crypto-islamists in clever disguise, I'm affraid it doesn't...

[Francisco Montana]

That's horrible what's happening in Paris.

"We need to act at the same time on prevention, repression, education, housing, jobs ... and not play the cowboy."

I agree we should try to help people when they are stuck in the vicious cycle that is modern day Welfare. But at what point are people reasponsible for their own actions and choices in life? At what point do we say, "Hmm others seemed to make it out of the ghetto without falling into the obvious pitfalls of drugs and crime."? I think eventually we all run out of excuses and have to pull ourselves up by our boot straps.

...but I disagree that it has anything to do with Islam.

How much Islam played a role, well, I don't know. But, I havn't been hearing too many Imams preaching tolerance and peace...quite to the contrary. How would that help the plite of the impoverished?? It's only fueling the fire and making things worse.

[Empyrean]

The violence began four days ago among residents of Clichy-sous-Bois over the deaths of two teenagers believed to be of African origin who were electrocuted while fleeing police.

What the hell? That's a vague statement... did they run into something and get electrocuted, or are tasers a lot more dangerous than I thought?

I am glad they have gun control in France, because if it was bullets in stead of rocks there would be more than 6 wounded for sure.

Yeah, because setting each other on fire is so much better. Read the article.

[Justinian]

It's situations like this that make me depressed about how uninformed so many Americans are about world events. If I walk up to someone on the street and say, "Hear about those riots in Paris?"

"Huh? Where?"

[Tom Paine]

It has this:

It's situations like this that make me depressed about how uninformed so many Americans are about world events. If I walk up to someone on the street and say, "Hear about those riots in Paris?"

"Huh? Where?"

to do with it

[Justinian]

Yes yes, go and blame me, Squeakus. It's true, though. Most people I meet on the street seem to never read the newspaper.

Oh, wait...

It's not IN the newspaper.

[Kanaric]

Lol, ya this is funny. You would think from reading this board that the US is the only arch-evil rascist country in the world.

[Tom Paine]

Lol, ya this is funny. You would think from reading this board that the US is the only arch-evil rascist country in the world.

"Vote for the thief not the racist"....

Back to the topic, this has nothing to do with Islam, only with general crime and something about the immigrants. Pointing at specific groups seems to have no basis in the article.

[Trey]

Lol, ya this is funny. You would think from reading this board that the US is the only arch-evil rascist country in the world.

Of course, people will always hate the biggest/strongest person/country out there, even if their isnt a valid reason for it.

[bigfootedfred]

-left blank-

[Kanaric]

Thats what they say in the US when they make immigration laws, but when we do it its rascist.

[Tom Paine]

Thats what they say in the US when they make immigration laws, but when we do it its rascist.

What is? The "thief not racist" thing was taken from the last french presidential election.

[wilpuri]

My local newspaper, Helsingin Sanomat, decided to jump to the conclusion that the boys infact had been chased by the police, before any investigation had been conducted. The argument of the mob must have been convincing.

They also, however, report that the clashes have obtained 'a religious touch' as there were reportedly tear gas cans thrown into a local mosque. The locals blame the police, and while the police does not outright deny these claims, they do no believe that the police were responsible. Reportedly, the opposition and various human rights organisations have criticized the French government, and claimed that the hardened measures against crime are to blame for these measures.

I find it all rather ridiculous; first of all, assuming that the two youngsters were chased by the police, I fail to see the implications of this. They were running from the police, which to me would indicate that there was a motive for this action. I suspect this motive was the fear of being caught. Now why do people usually not want to be caught by the police? When they have done something or when they are innocent? The function of the police force is to prevent crime and to catch criminals. If these youngsters were criminals, the police force would simply have been doing their job in chasing them. I understand and realize that it was very unfortunate that these teenaged boys were killed, but the police force is hardly to blame, unless the rioters want the police to stop doing their job. Is that what they want? The answer to that question might be tricky.

The article in Helsingin Sanomat states, that critics of the hardened policy on crime in the suburbs are saying that it has not solved any of the problems of the suburbs, that people in the suburbs face unemployment, poverty and have no hope for the future. The problem is that France has taken in so many migrants, that it is just simply beyond the point of the state being able to provide high living standards for everyone. Again the response of the media and the 'progressive' institutions has sent the message, that the rioters (=3rd world immigrants, probably mostly Muslim) cannot be held accountable for their acts, and that it is the native population (in this case the French) that are responsible. When nothing is expected of the immigrants and nothing they do is their fault, they will do nothing and everything, because they are not held accountable. France has allowed herself to slide into this position. Some think France is on the verge of civil upheaval. By looking at what is going on in Clichy-sous-Bois, one can only wonder what tomorrow will bring.