Unit Pricing Oddities

I cant help but notice that there are some strange unit prices about for the various factions such as:

710 for the Austrian Chevaux leger cavalry - who is going to use these when dragoons have better stats for the same price and uhlans are much cheaper and more effective?

680 for British Light Dragoons - Quite expensive for their average stats and Heavy dragoons have better stats and are the same price! Indeed light dragoons in general for all nations are pretty expensive for some reason.

530 for Prussian Lutzow friekorps - Very cheap for an elite unit with a morale of 8!!??

620 for Ottoman Azzars- quite expensive for the poor stats.

Mistakes by CA perhaps? Im sure people have noticed others aswell but these ones have been bugging me lately.

Yeah they need a re-work but I doubt CA will bother with shogun in the pipeline

Originally Posted by ottomanfan

Mistakes by CA perhaps? Im sure people have noticed others aswell but these ones have been bugging me lately.

Don't forget that it's not only the stats that influence pricing but also the units' traits.
CA obviously misjudged some abilities' worth, but it takes a lot of experience to get it right
(which beta testing can only give you with limitations compared to what the community will later find).

I don't have the specific stats right now, but light horses with high stamina may well be worth a higher price because they can run longer and therefore are more mobile, and for melee troops it's useful because it will take longer to wear them down (as exhaustion seriously impedes melee).

Originally Posted by daniu

Don't forget that it's not only the stats that influence pricing but also the units' traits.
CA obviously misjudged some abilities' worth, but it takes a lot of experience to get it right
(which beta testing can only give you with limitations compared to what the community will later find).

I don't have the specific stats right now, but light horses with high stamina may well be worth a higher price because they can run longer and therefore are more mobile, and for melee troops it's useful because it will take longer to wear them down (as exhaustion seriously impedes melee).

Hah, I remember having this exact discussion with you not too long ago! In support of your claim, I would note that light horses not only have excellent stamina but are also much faster than regular dragoons. Regular dragoons are so slow it's almost like they barely outrun light infantry, so being offered the option between superior speed/stamina and superior stats is certainly a valid (and rather interesting) choice.

If you go for light dragoons, you invite more micromanagement in order to best utilize their strengths and keep them out of prolonged melee; if you go for regular dragoons you can trust them to hold their own a bit better in a melee, but their agonizingly slow speed means that they may arrive too late to the party to help where they are needed or they may be slaughtered because they can't retreat from a bad situation quickly enough. Pretty fun stuff, as the choice you make can vastly alter your play style.

This is, however, just in regards to light dragoon/regular dragoon pricing balance. I totally agree that other units are not priced as they should be. One of my own personal complaints would be with howitzers, which I think should cost far more to better reflect their absurd effectiveness, ease of use, and historical rarity (relative to cannon) for the period.

Originally Posted by Keiichi

Hah, I remember having this exact discussion with you not too long ago! In support of your claim, I would note that light horses not only have excellent stamina but are also much faster than regular dragoons. Regular dragoons are so slow it's almost like they barely outrun light infantry, so being offered the option between superior speed/stamina and superior stats is certainly a valid (and rather interesting) choice.

If you go for light dragoons, you invite more micromanagement in order to best utilize their strengths and keep them out of prolonged melee; if you go for regular dragoons you can trust them to hold their own a bit better in a melee, but their agonizingly slow speed means that they may arrive too late to the party to help where they are needed or they may be slaughtered because they can't retreat from a bad situation quickly enough. Pretty fun stuff, as the choice you make can vastly alter your play style.

This is, however, just in regards to light dragoon/regular dragoon pricing balance. I totally agree that other units are not priced as they should be. One of my own personal complaints would be with howitzers, which I think should cost far more to better reflect their absurd effectiveness, ease of use, and historical rarity (relative to cannon) for the period.

I hear what Daniu and yourself are saying about light dragoon/heavy dragoon but this doesnt seem to add up when you compare light dragoons and other light cavalry such as hussars and lancers for some nations which tend to be cheaper and with equal or better stats. I wonder if they are priced higher beacuse of their ability to dismount? (Although this is rarely if ever used)

I totally agree about howitzers though, i think they should be priced 1000-1200 (as strangely the worst and least effective howitzers given to the ottomans are priced at a whopping 1080?? there is another mystery!)

Yeah, it's most likely the dismount ability offsetting the cost. Definitely a 'skill' of dubious benefit, though I admit it has come in handy on a few (very few) occasions. I would point out however, that the more capable light cavalry units (French and British Hussars, Chasseurs a Cheval) tend to cost in the 700 range, so being priced at 680 isn't too terrible, though you're right that a cheaper Prussian Lancer unit is generally a more useful unit.

Side note, I think Chasseurs a Cheval are way under priced and as a result are some of the best light cavalry in the game; only 40 gold more than British light dragoons but with all the benefits of light cav, melee stats on par with medium cavalry, and the ability to fire/skirmish while mounted. Way too many pros and not enough cons there.

Great point about the Ottoman howitzers, forgot about those guys. It's like CA priced the Ottoman howitzers right where they should be, but then someone hit their head and priced all the European howitzers at a lower price than they were supposed to...

Originally Posted by Keiichi

Yeah, it's most likely the dismount ability offsetting the cost. Definitely a 'skill' of dubious benefit, though I admit it has come in handy on a few (very few) occasions. I would point out however, that the more capable light cavalry units (French and British Hussars, Chasseurs a Cheval) tend to cost in the 700 range, so being priced at 680 isn't too terrible, though you're right that a cheaper Prussian Lancer unit is generally a more useful unit.

Side note, I think Chasseurs a Cheval are way under priced and as a result are some of the best light cavalry in the game; only 40 gold more than British light dragoons but with all the benefits of light cav, melee stats on par with medium cavalry, and the ability to fire/skirmish while mounted. Way too many pros and not enough cons there.

Great point about the Ottoman howitzers, forgot about those guys. It's like CA priced the Ottoman howitzers right where they should be, but then someone hit their head and priced all the European howitzers at a lower price than they were supposed to...

they have a different number of men, just FYI. like in my analysis i excluded them from the missle cavalry category for this reason.

Maybe the ottomans historically didn't have easy access to howitzers, so CA increased the price to reflect this?

I believe that historically the Ottomans were not as advanced at bell forging (which is very similar to cannon forging) as the Europeans were during the Napoleonic Wars Major Hemorrhoid's Brother, although their metallurgical skills appear to have been just as advanced. This means that their artillery was probably not as good as the European amies' was, but their swords and other weapons appear to have been quite well constructed.

Portugals light inf has been increased. Not sure if it's good or bad because all Portugal has is good lights and line (but no elites to help moral)

yes, you would think that with the peninsular campaign bringing so many new units to spain, maybe, just maybe portugal would get some new units?

What new units to Spain? I think most of them are the same with simple name and stat changes

i exaggerated slightly i admit

Originally Posted by ottomanfan

I cant help but notice that there are some strange unit prices about for the various factions such as:

710 for the Austrian Chevaux leger cavalry - who is going to use these when dragoons have better stats for the same price and uhlans are much cheaper and more effective?

680 for British Light Dragoons - Quite expensive for their average stats and Heavy dragoons have better stats and are the same price! Indeed light dragoons in general for all nations are pretty expensive for some reason.

530 for Prussian Lutzow friekorps - Very cheap for an elite unit with a morale of 8!!??

620 for Ottoman Azzars- quite expensive for the poor stats.

Mistakes by CA perhaps? Im sure people have noticed others aswell but these ones have been bugging me lately.

Austrian Chevaux Cavalry are one of the few "medium" cavalry in the game, neither heavy or light. They have much better stamina than heavy cavalry like dragoons.

Same thing with british light dragoons which is actually one of the best light cavalry in the game. They are also faster. It's a huge factor running all over the map and not having your troops tired.

Prussian Lutzow have more poor defense, they will suffer more losses in sustained melee.

Azzars not much worse than the other Ottoman light infantry. Also, they can deploy stakes .

Not a mistake IMO. Hope it helps.

Originally Posted by Ducreux

Austrian Chevaux Cavalry are one of the few "medium" cavalry in the game, neither heavy or light. They have much better stamina than heavy cavalry like dragoons.

Same thing with british light dragoons which is actually one of the best light cavalry in the game. They are also faster. It's a huge factor running all over the map and not having your troops tired.

Prussian Lutzow have more poor defense, they will suffer more losses in sustained melee.

Azzars not much worse than the other Ottoman light infantry. Also, they can deploy stakes .

Not a mistake IMO. Hope it helps.

I actually havnt noticed much of a stamina diff between chevaux leger cav and heavy cav to be honest and i havnt noticed British light dragoons move any faster than any other light cav but maybe you are right.

Yeh i figured it must be the stakes that gave the azzars the high cost, but their shooting ability is pretty poor compared to the light inf.

Originally Posted by ottomanfan

620 for Ottoman Azzars- quite expensive for the poor stats.

Ive found azzars to be very competent shooters for some strange reason, usually getting more kills on average then normal light infantry. This is most likely due to their sporadiac fire. One thing working in the azzars way is their ability to deploy stakes, being the only 90 strong light infantry to be able to do this.

Originally Posted by Keiichi

Side note, I think Chasseurs a Cheval are way under priced and as a result are some of the best light cavalry in the game; only 40 gold more than British light dragoons but with all the benefits of light cav, melee stats on par with medium cavalry, and the ability to fire/skirmish while mounted. Way too many pros and not enough cons there.

Hardly under priced compared to swedish mounted jeagars and ottoman missile cav which are more sizeable in number aswell as being 160 less with around the same shooting skills.

Originally Posted by blonkers1234

Hardly under priced compared to swedish mounted jeagars and ottoman missile cav which are more sizeable in number aswell as being 160 less with around the same shooting skills.

Ah yes, they are quite under priced as well, but at least if you manage to catch them with most other light cav, you have a decent chance of winning the melee. Chasseurs can slaughter pretty much any unit that has the possibility to catch them and draw them into melee; even the 60 man missile cav can be beaten fairly easily due to the higher morale and far superior melee stats of the Chassuers (and you can't really run from them as they can easily keep up and shoot you in the back; well, that's where friendly infantry come to save the day). They're just the complete package!

Also, remember I was thinking in terms of Chasseurs vs. British Light Dragoons at the time of that post, the difference in price/performance ratio between the two is so humongous it was blinding me to the other pricing oddities .

While I like to harp on the Chassuers, my main beef has always been with howitzers. However, I haven't had the chance to really explore how the changes in the recent patch affected their effectiveness. Hate to admit it, but I've uninstalled NTW; not because I dislike the game or anything, far from it I love the game! Unfortunately I've got the damn 'stuttering cannon' bug ever since I installed an ATI card, and it makes the game pretty much unplayable. And with the Steam sales going on and all, I need the hard drive space. Oh well, here's hoping a driver update gets me back in the game soon.

You guys have yet to mention the 2nd most expensive unit in the game... Unicorns I am really starting to think that old guard are better.

what ati card do you have?

Originally Posted by Y@$!N

what ati card do you have?

5770, to replace an 8800GT. My old 22" monitor died and I replaced it with a 24", and while I love my 8800GT, I figured it would have trouble with the higher resolution of the new monitor so I picked up the 5770. Very nice card, low temps, low power draw, and all my games are running at higher resolution and maxed out settings with excellent framerates... all my games but NTW that is .

Whenever a cannon fires or whenever a cannonball bounces on the ground, the framerate will drop like a rock. If there are many cannon firing at once the game becomes a slide show. It's apparently a bug with the WinXP ATI drivers and affects almost all ATI cards running under WinXP. Older ATI cards can use driver version 9.2 and it fixes the problem, but 9.2 doesn't support the 5770 (and the current driver version is 10.6, so it would suck to use such old drivers anyways).

Have to just hope someone at CA or ATI gets the problem sorted out, or maybe I'll finally cave in and pick up Win7 .