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  1. #1
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Seppuku

    Quote Originally Posted by Nakandakari Lobato View Post
    I wouldn't be at all surprised if the exiting Japanese Prime Minister (Yukio Hatoyama) commits suicide. He really made an about face (no pun intended) on the Okinawa military bases, and had to resign. The loss of honor was huge.

    Back to the topic, seppuku and suicide in general is a huge aspect of life in Japan, and this is a central aspect of her military history

    ...

    Don't think that the lower echelon all committed suicide. They wanted to live again, and melt into the darkness and fog to evade the enemy skirmishers. After all Musashi did just that, and became a great swordsman.

    The reality is that thousands of heads were taken, and torture common. So was pillaging. One might lose your family's ancestral katana and armor, and that shame alone would cause seppuku. Or if you lose those items that were given by your daimyo (leader). Truly much of the game may have to change.

    Someone mentioned duels here. They were technically illegal. Being involved in one could cause dishonor to both especially if on the same side. Post Sekigahara, there were thousands of displaced samurai, all who had no masters. They didn't commit suicide; they hoped to find new masters. While dueling was against the law, at the same time it went up enormously, and issuing personal challenges while against the law in theory, was admired by the samurai in general, and a chance to see some sport.

    Sometimes, samurai switched sides, rather than lose and annihilate their whole clan in the process ala Braveheart and the Scottish nobles.

    If you want to see an interesting movie, watch Samurai Fiction. It's a common theme for a samurai's family to start a vendetta against a rival who's killed their family member. No matter what their strength or skill (they may be elderly), they spent all their time and money in killing the rival AT ANY COST. See MUSASHI by Eiji Yoshikawa for an example. Those vendettas never ended. The rival was killed, then their family killed the original family, and on and on. To bring it back to the subject of seppuku, the family members knew they would die in the attempt. They didn't care. It regained the honor of the family which was paramount.

    Here's an example blurred to protect the parties involved. A child was raped, and victim was Japanese. The family went to identify the perpetrator, and then dropped the charges. The family sent a message, "We will destroy you. If we do not, we have family members, and they will destroy you. Should they fail, they have sons and daughters too. Someone will destroy you."

    Very interesting information given here.

    So while I'm interested in the ritualistic suicide and would like to know more (the wikipedia gave details but not that info), I would also like to ask how someone that severs the head of a person commiting suicide escapes murder charges.

    Another question:
    Masterless Samurai... why would they look so hard for a master and even think commiting suicide? A knight that lost his liege, would generally follow the next of kin to his fallen lord and would do it not for honor, but for protection and to keep having legal rights to his lands.
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  2. #2
    RollingWave's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Seppuku

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Very interesting information given here.

    So while I'm interested in the ritualistic suicide and would like to know more (the wikipedia gave details but not that info), I would also like to ask how someone that severs the head of a person commiting suicide escapes murder charges.

    Another question:
    Masterless Samurai... why would they look so hard for a master and even think commiting suicide? A knight that lost his liege, would generally follow the next of kin to his fallen lord and would do it not for honor, but for protection and to keep having legal rights to his lands.
    Generally speaking, a masterless samurai , a ronin, would look for employment, though in some cases maybe his old master's entire clan was wiped out, or that his closest kin play a part in his downfall.

    Still, in Sengoku era there were plenty of Samurais who still went to the employment of others anyway. ritual suicide in those days were most common for guys who had no chance of surviving if they were caught alive anyway. (like say.. a daiymo who's realm was about to get wiped out). of course there are still exceptions to the rule. and some revenge act was extracted.

    Not all Samurai had land, usually if you had land you either inherited from your fathers or you were already a pretty successful and recongnized warrior in your own right. and even if you were landed. if your master was destroyed it was more than likely that you lost your land in the process as well.
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  3. #3
    Farnan's Avatar Saviors of the Japanese
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    Default Re: Seppuku

    The Historical Foundations of Bushido
    by Karl Friday
    [Anyone who has ventured into the world of online bulletin boards knows that the quality of discussion ranges widely, not only between different boards and their various forums, but even on the same board at different times. One outstanding example of the "good stuff" appeared on E-budo earlier this year. Participants were discussing the extent to which the concept of bushido accurately reflected aspects of the Japanese warrior culture and whether it was/is actually relevant to the Japanese martial arts, past and present. We're pleased to be able to reproduce Dr. Karl Friday's response here, together with the questions that gave rise to it. Enjoy!]


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Originally posted by Scott R. Brown:
    Is there anyone out there with other historical evidence that can confirm or refute these differing opinions.
    The two questions are:
    1) Did the Bushido code, whether written out or not, exist as a concept in historical Japan?
    2) Was the Bushido code used as a means to foster yamatodamashii in the soldiery during WW II?


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    "Bushido" is a very tricky term, one of those we're probably all best off just forgetting about. It was scarcely used at all until the modern period (in fact, Nitobe, whose Bushido: the Soul of Japan did more than any other work to publicize the term, thought he had invented it!).

    Even as a kind of historiographic term--i.e. a modern label for warrior ideology--"bushido" is a problematic construct. There was very little discussion in written form of proper "warrior-ness," except for legal codes developed by daimyo, until the Tokugawa period. The concept of a code of conduct for the samurai was a product of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, when Japan was at peace, not the medieval "Age of the Country at War."

    At this point, the role of the warrior became a major philosophical problem for the samurai, since they had stationed themselves at the top of the socio-political hierarchy, and yet effectively did no real work, since there were no longer any wars. The samurai of this period were bureaucrats and administrators, not fighting men; the motivation held in common by all those who wrote on the "way of the warrior" was a search for the proper role of a warrior class in a world without war. The ideas that developed out of this search owed very little to the behavioral norms of the warriors of earlier times.

    The real problem, though, was that while there was lots of debate, there was little or no agreement. I tell my students that "bushido" belongs to the same class of words as terms like "patriotism," or "masculinity" or "femininity." That is, everyone pretty much agrees that these are good qualities to possess, but few agree on what they actually involve: Is Oliver North a patriot? Is Madeline Albright more or less feminine than Marilyn Monroe? Where does Madonna fit in to this scheme?

    The same issues plagued the Tokugawa (and modern) participants in the debate on proper warrior values and behavior. An illuminating example of how diverse opinion really was can be found in the debate over the actions of the famous 47 ronin of Ako (memorialized in the story "Chushingura"). Among other things, Yamamoto Tsunetomo, the author of Hagakure (which the Imperial Army later took as a kind of sacred text on warrior values) was heavily critical of the Ako ronin, calling them "citified samurai." Hiroaki Sato translated and published a lot of the pieces in this debate in his Legends of the Samurai book. Definitely required reading for anyone interested in these issues.

    The answer to Scott's second question is "yes and no." Yes, the Japanese government and the Imperial Army and Navy pushed the notion of "bushido" as a way to foster the sort of military spirit they desired from their soldiers and sailors. But no, the code they preached did not have much to do with anything the samurai believed in or practiced. The connection between Japan's modern and premodern military traditions is thin--it is certainly nowhere near as strong or direct as government propagandists, militarists, Imperial Army officers, and some post-war historians have wished to believe. A couple of examples to make this point clearer:

    One of the basic tenets that modern writers associate with bushido is that a true samurai was not only willing to risk his life when called upon to do so, but actually looked forward to the opportunity to sacrifice himself in the line of duty. This is the fundamental sentiment to be found in Hagakure, and was the inspiration for Mishima Yukio's eloquent post-war commentary on that text. Hagakure was immensely popular among the officers of the Imperial Army and its often-quoted opening line, "I have found that the way of the warrior is to die," was unquestionably used to inspire kamikaze pilots and the like.

    But, however central the willingness to die might have been to twentieth century notions of bushido, it takes a considerable leap of faith to connect this sort of philosophy with the actual behavior of the medieval samurai.

    It is not terribly difficult to find examples of warriors who, in desperate situations, chose to turn and die heroically rather than be killed in the act of running away. By the same token, it is not terribly difficult to find examples of this sort in the military traditions of virtually any people at any time anywhere in the world. On the other hand, as one reads the military historical record of early and medieval Japan, one is struck far more often by the efforts of samurai to use deception and subterfuge to catch an opponent off guard or helpless, than by the sort of zealous self-sacrifice that Tsunetomo called for.

    A second popular theme among modern commentators on bushido concerns the absolute fielty that warriors were supposed to have displayed toward their lords. The loyalty of a samurai is said to have been unconditional and utterly selfless. It is true that exhortations to loyalty were a major theme in shogunal regulations, the house laws of the great medieval feudal barons, and seventeenth and eighteenth century treatises on bushido, as well. But there are at least two problems involved in interpreting from this that loyalty was a fundamental part of the medieval warrior character.

    To begin with, the unrestricted loyalty that subjects owe their rulers is a basic tenet of Confucianism and derives little or nothing from any military tradition per se. Japanese government appeals for loyalty from subjects began long before the birth of the samurai class--as, for example, in the "Seventeen Article Constitution" of Shotoku Taishi, promulgated in 603. The concept predates even the existence of a Japanese nation by hundreds of years, and traces back to the Chinese Confucian philosophers of the sixth to third centuries BC. Japanese warlords who called upon the samurai who served them to render unflinching loyalty were not so much defining proper samurai behavior as they were exhorting their subjects on a traditional and general theme of government.

    Furthermore, there is a logical fallacy involved in trying to deduce norms of actual behavior from formal legal and moral codes. It is no more accurate to infer from the writings of lawmakers and moral philosophers that medieval samurai were shining examples of fielty than it is to draw conclusions about the sexual behavior of twentieth century Georgians from the state laws on sodomy. The truth is that selfless displays of loyalty by warriors are conspicuous in the Japanese historical record mainly by their absence.

    From the beginnings of the samurai class and the lord/vassal bond in the eighth century to at least the onset of the early modern age in the seventeenth, the ties between master and retainer were contractual, based on mutual interest and advantage, and were heavily conditioned by the demands of self-interest. Medieval warriors remained loyal to their lords only so long as it benefited them to do so; they could and did readily switch allegiances when the situation warranted it. In fact there are very few important battles in Japanese history in which the defection--often in the middle of the fighting--of one or more of the major players was not a factor.

    Much of the code of conduct for samurai prescribed by early modern and modern writers, then, was at odds with the apparent behavioral norms of the actual warrior tradition. By the same token, much of the "bushido" preached by the government and the militarists of the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries was at best superficially derived from the "Way of the Warrior" espoused in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries.
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  4. #4
    Katsumoto's Avatar Quae est infernum es
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    Default Re: Seppuku

    That was a pretty interesting read Farnan, but I don't think it mentioned seppuku at all.


    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    So while I'm interested in the ritualistic suicide and would like to know more (the wikipedia gave details but not that info), I would also like to ask how someone that severs the head of a person commiting suicide escapes murder charges.
    Why would they be charged with murder? The kaishakunin ('second') cutting off the person's head would've have been a close friend or aquantaince of the man commiting suicide, and he would've asked him to cut off his head to ease the pain. If you mean the modern day examples of people commiting seppuku then I don't know, they probably would be charged with murder unless assisted suicide is legal in Japan.

    I've got some more in-depth info in a few books so I'll probably take a look later and type something else up.
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  5. #5
    Farnan's Avatar Saviors of the Japanese
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    Default Re: Seppuku

    The point of it is that despite famous examples of Seppuku, the use of it along with other parts of Bushido, was far less common during the Japanese Middle Ages than it is popularly believed.
    “The nation that will insist upon drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking by cowards.”

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  6. #6
    Katsumoto's Avatar Quae est infernum es
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    Default Re: Seppuku

    Oh yes, definitely. If they commited seppuku every time they lost there wouldn't have been so many wars and battles.

    I've actually read that Hagakure book and it's pretty ridicilous, definitely not 'the book of the samurai' as it was advertised; even then it was considered fundementalist and 'out there'.
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  7. #7
    Farnan's Avatar Saviors of the Japanese
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    Default Re: Seppuku

    Also the whole idea of suicide being the honorable way to restore honor is not unique to Japanese history. The Ancient Greeks and Romans consider suicide to be an honorable way to avoid the shame of being captured or humilitated (famously Marcus Brutus, Mark Antony, Socrates (who believed suicide more honorable than state execution) and Cleopatra).
    “The nation that will insist upon drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking by cowards.”

    —Sir William Francis Butler

  8. #8

    Default Re: Seppuku

    Quote Originally Posted by Farnan View Post
    Also the whole idea of suicide being the honorable way to restore honor is not unique to Japanese history. The Ancient Greeks and Romans consider suicide to be an honorable way to avoid the shame of being captured or humilitated (famously Marcus Brutus, Mark Antony, Socrates (who believed suicide more honorable than state execution) and Cleopatra).
    While the romantic retelling of history has us believe such suicides were to "regain their honour" I think a more pragmatic approach would be to assume it more a way to avoid the pain and torture that your enemies will put you through.

    I doubt Augustus would have been fair to Brutus, Antony or Cleopatra. Torture and a terrible death was sure to follow their capture. Anyways, my point is that honourable suicide seems highly romanticized in history and I have troubles believing it.

  9. #9
    Katsumoto's Avatar Quae est infernum es
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    Default Re: Seppuku

    Yeah I think I saw Dr.Croccer in another thread mentioning that Germanic tribes also practised this honour suicide.

    I've read that seppuku was in some respects the ultimate test for a samurai; being able to push through the pain of cutting your belly open whilst staying dignified and keeping your back straight. Apparently the samurai's way of life was supposed to prepare him for that.
    "I pray Heaven to bestow the best of blessings on this house and all that shall hereafter inhabit it. May none but honest and wise men ever rule under this roof."
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  10. #10
    Farnan's Avatar Saviors of the Japanese
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    Default Re: Seppuku

    No a Samaurai's way of life was to prepare him to swing a sword, ride a horse, shoot a bow, fight a battle, administer his holdings and the proper ettiquete in dealing with others of his class or his superiors. Same as that of a knight.

    Seppuku was more ritualized than Medditerranean suicide methods. But that may have been more due to the Japanese using Seppuku to regain honor and the Medditerraneans using it to avoid dishonor. Thus the Seppuku method was more for the audience.
    “The nation that will insist upon drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking by cowards.”

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  11. #11
    Katsumoto's Avatar Quae est infernum es
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    Default Re: Seppuku

    Quote Originally Posted by Farnan View Post
    No a Samaurai's way of life was to prepare him to swing a sword, ride a horse, shoot a bow, fight a battle, administer his holdings and the proper ettiquete in dealing with others of his class or his superiors. Same as that of a knight.
    I was talking about the spiritual side; the discipline and that. The things you mentioned are a given.

    Forced seppuku was also very common; accounts vary but Oda Nobunaga was apparently forced to commit seppuku so that he would no longer be a threat.

    Seppuku on the battlefield was also very different to ritualised seppuku. Suicide on the battlefield was more to avoid capture and torture like DG said, and involved hastily sticking yourself with your blade, whereas formal seppuku was more about politics or punishments (or even just sending a message) which involved all the rituals and presentations (white clothing etc.)
    "I pray Heaven to bestow the best of blessings on this house and all that shall hereafter inhabit it. May none but honest and wise men ever rule under this roof."
    - John Adams, on the White House, in a letter to Abigail Adams (2 November 1800)

  12. #12
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Seppuku

    Quote Originally Posted by Farnan View Post
    No a Samaurai's way of life was to prepare him to swing a sword, ride a horse, shoot a bow, fight a battle, administer his holdings and the proper ettiquete in dealing with others of his class or his superiors. Same as that of a knight.
    Interesting approach, but I think loyalty and honor had a lot more to do in the mix, than necessary to swing a sword.
    Also "administer his holdings" I thought that about 5-10% of the Japanese were Samurai, they couldn't all hold much land.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katsumoto View Post
    formal seppuku was more about politics or punishments (or even just sending a message) which involved all the rituals and presentations (white clothing etc.)
    The suicide to send a message... it couldn't be common. I read that it happened once and I saw that in the last Samurai, but can someone tell me how common it was? If 2-3 people did that in the whole Japanese history... it can't be really mean that it was a way to send a message.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
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