Rangers of Ithilien - We need them sooner. Please.

[Toshach]

This is an appeal to consider the possibility of training of Rangers of Ithilien (RoI) earlier in the game.

I have been doing some research. The RoI were formed in TA 2901, about fifty years prior to the start of the TATW mod, or 100 years prior to the WotR. According to A Guide to Middle Earth by Robert Foster (1971) “…the Rangers would cross the river from time to time to harry Sauron’s forces in Ithilien.” Up until the WotR, they were the first line of defense protecting Gondor from the forces of Mordor. It is surmised that after the war, they ceased their guerrilla activities and became part of the White Company. Foster sites specific passages in The Two Towers, and Return of the King.

I don’t know about anyone else here, but when I’m playing as Gondor, I never get around to training any RoI. As you all know that in order to do so, you must control a city or fortress in North or South Ithilien, and you have to have built a R3 level archery range. This takes a prohibitively long time. The irony of the current parameters is that in order to produce the units intended to conduct guerrilla warfare in Ithilien, you need to control Ithilien.


I believe it would be a better recreation of lore if the following revisions were to be implemented:

• one or two units of RoI be on the map at the start of the mod,
• ability to produce RoI from R1 level archery ranges,
• ability to produce RoI in Minas Tirith and Osgiliath, as well as towns and fortresses in Ithilien.

In addition to making it possible to replicate Middle Earth history and lore, the Gondor player will get to create a very cool unit at a time when he really needs it. And isn't that the purpose of this mod?

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

[Beregond]

Osgiliath is capable of producing them
just hold EO, it's not that difficult.

but the idea of having ONE unit at the start of the game besides Faramir's bodyguards is not that bad, although this is not really needed

[The Big Red 1]

Having a strong archery unit produced from a level one barracks in the early game makes no since Balance wise, and Lore-Wise the Rangers would have to be adequately trained. So higher infrastructure would be needed. So no on that.

However, starting with a few of them sounds good.

[tyberriuss]

Osgiliath is capable of producing them

But you see, it doesn't say anywhere that Osgiliath can train rangers. Even though now, in hindsight, it's obvious that E.Osgiliath is tehnically in Ithilien not even the region name suggests so. I still think you should add that to the unit description or change the E.Os. region name to Ithilien Osgiliath... or both

[Toshach]

By that logic, HE should have eldar units at the beginning, because, they sure as hell didn't train any new Eldar during WOTR, they would all have been there right from the beginning. Otherwise, training Eldar units, meant to be thousands of years old, should take about 10000 turns to train!

That's a good point, but I think there is a difference. I never took “training” to mean just "training" strictly speaking. I always took it to mean the creation of the infrastructure needed to put that unit in the field, which would include training, organizing, arming, housing, and provisioning.

The mod starts after a brief period of relative peace, and most faction’s armies would have been drawn down (consider what happened after WWII). HE was not at war in TA 2950 (I don’t think, were they?). So while there would have been Eldar, they would not have had the organization required to send them to war without first creating the infrastructure needed to form them into a combat unit. Arranging all of that would have taken some time, especially if they had to produce their high quality armour. This is represented by building the required barracks, stables, or ranges.

On the other hand, according to lore, the Rangers of Ithilien are already in combat at the start of the mod. The infrastructure to provide training, organizing, arming, housing, and provisioning of them had to have already been in place.

So I think there is a logic to support at least having one or a couple of RoIs on the map at start, if not the ability to produce them.

That’s my story, and I’m stickin’ to it.

But you see, it doesn't say anywhere that Osgiliath can train rangers. Even though now, in hindsight, it's obvious that E.Osgiliath is tehnically in Ithilien not even the region name suggests so. I still think you should add that to the unit description or change the E.Os. region name to Ithilien Osgiliath... or both

Yeah, I didn't know that either. And I agree, it would be great if it was mentioned in the unit description.

[Ozzmosis]

By that logic, HE should have eldar units at the beginning, because, they sure as hell didn't train any new Eldar during WOTR, they would all have been there right from the beginning. Otherwise, training Eldar units, meant to be thousands of years old, should take about 10000 turns to train!

[IrishBlood]

By that logic, HE should have eldar units at the beginning, because, they sure as hell didn't train any new Eldar during WOTR, they would all have been there right from the beginning. Otherwise, training Eldar units, meant to be thousands of years old, should take about 10000 turns to train!

good point

[Deedlit]

AoR?

[Romaneck]

Heres an idea, make the rangers be hireable trough a guild (a la teutonic house) and make E.osgiliath start with it, if Gondor rushes E. Osgiliath they should be rewarded with Rangers

[tyberriuss]

Also, since Ithilien was under Mordor control by the start of the TA campaign ( "In 2954 Mount Doom burst into flame and those few farmers who remained fled Westward over Anduin, leaving only the Rangers behind to harry the servants of Sauron." ) all Ranger operations were conducted from hidden locations. So, if you really want to nail it in I think some kind of fort or wooden castle that can't be attacked by Mordor ( or even seen ) which can only train rangers would be the best way to go. If it's too easy like this, perhaps some special conditions to fullfill?

[Jean=A=Luc]

Maybe a script that spawns I-Rangers in Ithilien for the player. Or even a yes/no event that asks the player if he wants to finance the Rangers' guerrilla war. If yes you pay X money to have some Rangers spawn in the woods.

[Toshach]

...all Ranger operations were conducted from hidden locations. So, if you really want to nail it in I think some kind of fort or wooden castle that can't be attacked by Mordor...

Maybe a script that spawns I-Rangers in Ithilien for the player...

I like both of those ideas. They both allow for the Rangers to act as they did historically, with some impunity.

BTW, I just noticed that the Rangers can also be produced in W. Osgiliath--at least that's what the tech-tree says.

[Withwnar]

BTW, I just noticed that the Rangers can also be produced in W. Osgiliath--at least that's what the tech-tree says.

True, according to this - it has the Ithilien hidden resource.

Makes sense. Osgiliath is really one city, spanning both sides of the river, so technically the city does (partly) lie in Ithilien.

[jubraka]

make them mercs at the location of the forbidden pool which was Henneth Annun, perhaps a fort

[Withwnar]

...a yes/no event that asks the player if he wants to finance the Rangers' guerrilla war. If yes you pay X money to have some Rangers spawn in the woods.

Love that idea.

Or perhaps make IRs recruitable in lower level buildings but turn their replenishment rates waaay down; normal rates only at level 3. Or a guild instead.

I guess that the unit description could just mention the fact that Ithilien includes East Osgiliath.

[Njordr]

Or perhaps make IRs recruitable in lower level buildings but turn their replenishment rates waaay down; normal rates only at level 3. Or a guild instead.

I guess that the unit description could just mention the fact that Ithilien includes East Osgiliath.

I think it's the best solution.

[Beregond]

I'm not sure about WO, I built military in EO; but EO is on the east bank of Anduin, so technically in Ithilien, if you're famailiar with LOTR lore a bit (which is required imo to play this mod)

[Draziel]

I didnt knew that thing about Osgiliath too ... i think it would be cool if it would be in the units description.

I like the ideas for a script or just a couple Rangers to start with. But i guess you could also do some custom building, buildable in Osgiliath and N./S. Ithilien which can produce one unit of Rangers and only support one of them in ur armys.
So with a total of four buildings you can train and support up to four Rangers at a time.

In that way i would also limit other units like trolls but well its just my idea about balancing.

[Vifarc]

Rangers could be 'mercenaries' with no upkeep:
Mercenaries as it would be as if they were hiddden, waiting to join someone. Problem is a general has to go to Ithilien..
No upkeep as they are autonomous.

[Baywatch]

Rangers could be 'mercenaries' with no upkeep:
Mercenaries as it would be as if they were hiddden, waiting to join someone. Problem is a general has to go to Ithilien..
No upkeep as they are autonomous.

Having no upkeep for one of the best human archers in the game is a little ridiculous, don't you think? I think they're fine the way they are now. However, I could see starting with one unit.