The Kingdom of Italy

[Tuskin4]

Ive been doing research on the HRE(Holy Roman Empire) and i came across one of their vassels called the Kingdom of Italy. In 773 Charlemagne invaded and conqored Italy from the Lombards and restablished the Kingdom of Italy as a vassel to the HRE. After 962, the Kings of Italy were always also Kings of Germany, and Italy thus became a constituent kingdom of the HRE, along with Germany and (after 1032) Burgundy. The German king would be crowned by the Archbisop of Milan with the Iron Crown of Lobardy in Pavia as a prelude to the visit to Rome to be crowned Emperor by the Pope.The Imperial claims to dominion in Italy mostly manifested themselves, however, in the granting of titles to the various strong men who had begun to establish their control over the formerly republican cities. Most notably, the Emperors gave their backing to the Viscounty of Milan, and King Wencalaus create Gian Galeazzo Viscounti Duke of Milan in 1395. Other families to receive new titles from the emperors included the Gonzaga of Mantua, and the Este of Ferrara and Modena.

How will this Kingdom be represented or what form will the HRE prescence in Italy be represented?

[sumskilz]

That's a complex question that will probably be answered in a preview at some point.

[Space_Ed]

Ive been doing research on the HRE(Holy Roman Empire) and i came across one of their vassels called the Kingdom of Italy. In 773 Charlemagne invaded and conqored Italy from the Lombards and restablished the Kingdom of Italy as a vassel to the HRE. After 962, the Kings of Italy were always also Kings of Germany, and Italy thus became a constituent kingdom of the HRE, along with Germany and (after 1032) Burgundy. The German king would be crowned by the Archbisop of Milan with the Iron Crown of Lobardy in Pavia as a prelude to the visit to Rome to be crowned Emperor by the Pope.The Imperial claims to dominion in Italy mostly manifested themselves, however, in the granting of titles to the various strong men who had begun to establish their control over the formerly republican cities. Most notably, the Emperors gave their backing to the Viscounty of Milan, and King Wencalaus create Gian Galeazzo Viscounti Duke of Milan in 1395. Other families to receive new titles from the emperors included the Gonzaga of Mantua, and the Este of Ferrara and Modena.

How will this Kingdom be represented or what form will the HRE prescence in Italy be represented?

There has been much discussion about this and the debates are still not concluded. Yeah it is a complex question... we are trying to represent Italy and everywhere as historically accurately as possible but we will have to make concessions of historical accuracy due to game limitations and gameplay issues.

[konny]

In 1080 both the crowns of Burgundy and that of Italy had defacto merged with the German crown. Sometimes distinctive coronations have taken place, but this had no practical consequences, and often wasn't done at all: for example, between 1032 and 1314 only four German kings were realy crowned King of Brugundy, what doesn't mean that the others didn't act as Kings of Burgundy.

The same with Italy: the German king acted as King of Italy as soon as he became King of Germany. He appointed bishops, counts, margraves and dukes in Italy, issued diplomas for cities, and all that stuff a Medieval king did along the day, even before ever setting a foot into Italy. Occasionally there were other co-kings named for Italy. For example, Henry IV had his (under-age) son Konrad be crowned King of Italy, and his successor Henry V made Matilda of Tuscany viceroy.


With the growing independence of the cities in the 12th and 13th Century the German kings lost control over Italy, and this title became an empty titulation - if it was used at all.

[VINC.XXIII]

I had learn read, in 14th century, the crown of Italy its again a pretext for the Emperor to extort some money against communal charts for cities and vicar fonctions for the nobles or small tyrans.

[Alkidas]

I don't have the sources here with me at the moment, but I recall that even during the Late Middle Ages the rulers of northern Italy sent money to the emperor as a way of legitimizing their power. The emperor didn't become a nonentity in northern Italy, but he certainly was much less powerful than before.

[Tuskin4]

I don't have the sources here with me at the moment, but I recall that even during the Late Middle Ages the rulers of northern Italy sent money to the emperor as a way of legitimizing their power. The emperor didn't become a nonentity in northern Italy, but he certainly was much less powerful than before.

They would have had a presence in Italy until Charles V handed all the titles to the Spanish kings and not the HRE. Although there were independent Italian familys like the Viscounty and the Medici they still had to pay homage to the HRE. It seems as Alkidas put it "the rulers of northern Italy sent money to the emperor as a way of legitimizing their power" wich ever Italian family paid the HRE the most was granted the title King of Italy or just the HRE suporting the family to claim that it was higher then all the other. On a side note this situation was playing itself out in Russia during the Mongol dominion.

[konny]

Yes, that's correct. As legal lord over Italy the emperor continued to collect taxes/payements during the Middle Ages, usually in return for confirming the communities their liberties and the lords their holdings.

The difference was that the Ottonian, Salian and Staufian emperors realy ruled over Italy as kings. They spent a considerable ammount of time in Italy, (Frederick II, who also was King of Sicily, even more time than he was in Germany), appointed dukes, bishops, margraves and counts as their governors and fought those that opposed them. Under Henry III even the popes were appointed by the emperor.

This meant in return that around 1100 about everybody who was "someone" in Italy finally owed his status to imperial authority. A couple of these men even were Germans, like the Zähringer and Eppensteiner in Verona, or the Vohburger and Welfs in Spoleto, and that way were completly depending on a strong royal authority in Italy.

[Tuskin4]

Yes, that's correct. As legal lord over Italy the emperor continued to collect taxes/payements during the Middle Ages, usually in return for confirming the communities their liberties and the lords their holdings.

The difference was that the Ottonian, Salian and Staufian emperors realy ruled over Italy as kings. They spent a considerable ammount of time in Italy, (Frederick II, who also was King of Sicily, even more time than he was in Germany), appointed dukes, bishops, margraves and counts as their governors and fought those that opposed them. Under Henry III even the popes were appointed by the emperor.

This meant in return that around 1100 about everybody who was "someone" in Italy finally owed his status to imperial authority. A couple of these men even were Germans, like the Zähringer and Eppensteiner in Verona, or the Vohburger and Welfs in Spoleto, and that way were completly depending on a strong royal authority in Italy.

Thats intresting so will the Tuscany faction and Milan faction be protectorates to the HRE. Also when i was researching on the subject multible times i came acros something called the Lombard League. All i know is that they were opposed to the Imperial prescence in Italy.

[sumskilz]

Thats intresting so will the Tuscany faction and Milan faction be protectorates to the HRE.

Unfortunately, factions can't start as protectorates of one another.

[Alkidas]

With Matilda, the Countess of Tuscany and an enemy of the emperor, being a powerful person of the Tuscan faction in 1080, the whole faction won't be in good terms with the emperor and there is a considerable risk of war in fact. The relationship of the faction to the papacy and the emperor in DotS will depend on who is powerful at any given time and what he or she represents. I don't know the exact details. Hross knows more of this.

I don't remember if we have any plans concerning the Lombard League. It's a later thing so it's harder to include it because of the whole alternative history issue. But I think it's worth considering.

[konny]

Setting Tuscany to open war with the HRE would also be correct for 1080. There was the Battle of Volta Mantovana fought between Matilde and Henry's Italian allies in autumn 1080. Later Matilde and Henry's antipope Clement fought for control over Rome (a lady and a cleric involved in bloody streetfightings in Rome, welcome to the Middle Ages). Finally Matilde was able to defeat Henry during the siege of Canossa (1092).

[Tuskin4]

With Matilda, the Countess of Tuscany and an enemy of the emperor, being a powerful person of the Tuscan faction in 1080, the whole faction won't be in good terms with the emperor and there is a considerable risk of war in fact. The relationship of the faction to the papacy and the emperor in DotS will depend on who is powerful at any given time and what he or she represents. I don't know the exact details. Hross knows more of this.

I don't remember if we have any plans concerning the Lombard League. It's a later thing so it's harder to include it because of the whole alternative history issue. But I think it's worth considering.

Will the Viscounti be supporter of the HRE?
Heres some info i got about the Lombard League.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The Lombard League was an alliance formed around 1167, which at its apex included most of the cities of northern Italy (although its membership changed in time), including, among others, Milan, Piacenza, Cremona, Mantua, Crema, Bergamo, Brescia, Bologna, Padua, Treviso, Vicenza, Venice, Verona, Lodi, Reggio Emilia and Parma, and even some lords, such as the Marquis Malaspina and Ezzelino da Romano. The League was formed to counter the Holy Roman Empire's Frederick I, who was attempting to assert Imperial influence over Italy. Frederick claimed direct Imperial control over Italy at the Diet of Roncaglia (1158). The League had the support of Pope Alexander III, who also wished to see Imperial power in Italy decline. At the Battle of Legnano on 29 May 1176, Frederick I was defeated and, by the Peace of Venice, which took place in 1177, agreed to a six-year truce from August, 1178 to 1183, until the Peace of Constance, where the Italian cities agreed to remain loyal to the Empire but retained local jurisdiction over their territories.
The Lombard League was renewed several times and after 1226 regained its former prestige by countering the efforts of Frederick II to gain greater power in Italy. These efforts included the taking of Vicenza and the Battle of Cortenuova which established the reputation of the Emperor as a skillful strategist. He misjudged his strength, rejecting all Milanese peace overtures and insisting on unconditional surrender. It was a moment of grave historic importance when Frederick's hatred coloured his judgment and blocked all possibilities of a peaceful settlement. Milan and five other cities held out, and in October 1238 he had to unsuccessfully raise the siege of Brescia. Once again receiving papal support, the Lombard League effectively countered Frederick's efforts. During the 1249 siege of Parma, the Imperial camp was assaulted and taken, and in the ensuing Battle of Parma the Imperial side was routed. Frederick lost the Imperial treasure and with it any hope of maintaining the impetus of his struggle against the rebellious communes and against the pope. The League was dissolved in 1250 once Frederick died.

[konny]

Will the Viscounti be supporter of the HRE?
Heres some info i got about the Lombard League.

The Lombard League was an alliance formed around 1167....

Yes, that's the problem: this appeared nearly a hundred years after the game starts, and both the situation in the HRE, and even more that in Italy, had seriously changed.

Another problem is that any form of regional alliance cannot be displayed really convincingly with this game: either you hold the cities in question anyways, another faction is holding them (and everything is tied to your diplomatic stances), or they are held by the rebels, and that way generic enemy territory.


I can only speak for our (dHRR) experince that we had planned to implement the Lega Lombarda, but that this never left the phase of planning because it would have a required a long list of "if"s that in 90% of all games would have never had turned true.

The most important "if" would have been that Milan, or any other eligable faction, still is alive after about 100 years, but not controlling all of northern Italy anyways (you wouldn't make a League with your own cities). And this (gaming experince) would usually only happen if the player isn't involved in northern Italian affairs one way or the other - what in return would make any fancy scripting for this region obsolete.

[Alkidas]

Will the Viscounti be supporter of the HRE?

What I can only discuss with certainty is the situation in 1080 and whatever happens after that depends on what happens during the game.

We might perhaps do what Konny suggested and have Tuscany begin the game already in war with HRE. In any case if/when the Emperor moves southwards, a war will be very hard to avoid.

[Tuskin4]

What I can only discuss with certainty is the situation in 1080 and whatever happens after that depends on what happens during the game.

We might perhaps do what Konny suggested and have Tuscany begin the game already in war with HRE. In any case if/when the Emperor moves southwards, a war will be very hard to avoid.

How about you do fight a war with the Italians and you could script it so that when certain conditions are met the Italian factions will become protectorates to the HRE

[VINC.XXIII]

Good morning to alls,
That be great also to see rebels of subfaction France as angevin pseudo-faction. Lega Lombarda? Like subfaction of Milan/Gena faction. In the script its certainly possible to assign a city to conquer for an army of rebels