The overpowered Phalanx

[Bonapartist]

I'll start by admitting that I always hated fighting, and fighting with, phalanxes. Whether in vanilla, Darthmod, or now EB, they bug me. The micromanagement is a pain and they never seemed well implemented.

Now I'm playing as Rome and am in a massive quagmire in Egypt with Ptolemi and Selucia (thankfully also enemies or I'd be doomed) and am constantly fighting phalanxes. My problem is that every battle I'm just sitting there going, "really?" as groups of phalanxes just sit there and don't die. I understand that they tend to be extremely expensive, with 600+ upkeep and 1200+ recruitment fees, but jesus christ, they just don't die. Even mediumish quality phalanxes seem super tough. The only way I win these battles is by starting a rout and then killing these ubermensch phalanxes as they flee.

A phalanx should be virtually unbeatable from the front, but the trade off is that it should be completely decimated when blitzed from the rear. EB seems to pretend that isn't the case. Super elite cavalry (such as Hellenistic general) units smashing into unprepared phalanx rears still seem to yield minimal deaths. Then the phalanx calmly turns around, in a spectacularly, ridiculously effortless and synchronized fashion, and defends themselves.

Phalanxes are virtually ruining this mod for me. I had a group of 6, 60 unit missile troops shooting at a generals unit of elite phalanx, with only 15 remaining. ALL Of my people ran out of ammo and only had them down to 4 men. Celtic archers, hellenistic skirmishers, all with upgrades. My upgraded principes don't seem to do much better in melee.

I don't expect you guys to change the mod. How can I edit the game data to make it so the phalanxes are less robust, maybe a little cheaper?

[Brapbrapbap]

I haven't reached Egypt yet, but beating the snot out of Epeiros or the Greeks isn't all that diferent than fighting against the more "barbarian" nations. Plus, you even have the advantage of them being even slower. Just shower them with projectiles from various sides and encircle them.

[Bonapartist]

I do. And then, they run out of projectiles, and have only killed a handful of super heavy phalanx troops to show for it. It's ridiculous.

I've really enjoyed fighting and fighting as the Celtic nations. My game as the Casse has actually been my best and most prosperous so far. But those troops don't have the armor ratings of the Phalanxes let alone the bonuses which the formation seems to confer, regardless of which way the spears are actually facing.

Another weird thing, playing as the Casse, people loved to make deals with me. As the Romans, no one will even talk to me at this point - the whole world has solidified into unmovable factions. I never betrayed my allies in either game, so I don't know why.

[Shadow_LT]

First of all you are using your cavalry wrong, don't leave your cavalry in prolonged melee, especially against spearmen. Charge, retreat and repeat until phalanx is broken.(don't forget to keep their cavalry busy). And if don't have cavalry, surround them with infantry.

Also, try(if possible) to shoot missiles at their backs to bypass their 5 shield value(I have lowered to 4 in my game), which doubles against missiles.

Finally, celtic archers suck, get cretan mercenaries instead. They have better missile attack, range and more arrows(are more expensive, but they are worth it).

P.S. use slingers their missiles have bonus against armored troops.

[Dargaron]

At least against Phalangitai Deuteroi, Illyrian Coastal Levies seem to be terrifyingly effective. In my Makedonia campaign, I left a unit of Deuteroi to guard a section of a wooden wall against a single unit of Illyrian levies. When I come back to them, my phalangites are loosing to an attack from the front! I wouldn't put it past them to do wicked things to Pezheteroi, either, although I kicked Epirus out of Greece before using those guys in any numbers.

And I've found that most units simply won't rout while the general is alive, even if it is just a captain, even if sandwiched between a general's bodyguard and heavy infantry. So, if possible, kill the general.

[athanaric]

All hardcoded issues, except for the shield thing, which explains their resistance to missiles.
The "pike scythe", as I like to call it (i.e. phalanx turning aroud with levelled pikes ), is an RTW Vanilla bug which is responsible for most of the issues with phalanx troops.

The best ways around this are:

- attack phalanxes with javelineers from the back,
- bring scary mercs (Tindanotae, Worgozez) and elephants,
- bring "phalanx disruptors" (Thracian elites, Guild Warriors),
- eliminate all phalanx factions on the map.

Approximately 1/2 of my missile troops are slingers, although they now need to be imported to the eastern front.

That's way too many. Javelineers are better against phalanxes or elephants.
With slingers, the Balearics have the best offensive stats, while the Rhodians have the best defensive stats and range. Eastern and Hellenic Slingers are also very cost-efficient. Roman slingers are the weakest.

With the phalanx, you could try to lower the shield and attack values by a few points each (shield by one or two points, maybe).

[Stigmata]

- bring "phalanx disruptors" (Thracian elites, Guild Warriors),
- eliminate all phalanx factions on the map.

hell yeah

even with these overpowered phalanx, I'm a bad player when using them hauhauhauhaah

[Mediolanicus]

And I trust you are fighting on M difficulty?

the more "barbarian" nations.

And which would that be?

You are playing one of the most barbarian factions at that time yourself.

[A_Dane]

hellenistic generals arn't that good IMHO, i'd hire some thessalians, 1 or 2 groups in the back of a phalanx unit, and you'll send them straight to face their gods. Remember to withdraw them from the fight and repeat if they don't break them the first time (as someone else already pointed out).

I've found that greek classical hoplites & Triarri's do terrific jobs at pinning down phalanxes, better than hastatti and principes anyway..

lastly, as someone else also pointed out, Thracian mercenaries attacking from the rear tear them to shreds, same goes for naked galatian/gallic fanatics

[mamik_yev_konak]

You are playing one of the most barbarian factions at that time yourself.

Irrelevant, unnecessary and stinks of De-rail.

Player: AI pike will phalanx charge and/or turn their pikes 180 degrees just like a human playing vanilla RTW online would. Where do you think kiddies got the idea that phalanx could magically do such a thing? By playing RTW of course! 9/10 people on the EB network won't do that to you unless they're new players. So that's just a matter of AI agro and getting used to the inner workings of the AI. Kata charges work wonders by the way, just use primary charge (not secondary) and leave once the charge is near complete. Use 3 to 4 ranks of horses, no more no less.

[athanaric]

Where do you think kiddies got the idea that phalanx could magically do such a thing? By playing RTW of course!

They've probably had too much of Wuxia as well, with all those flying monks and whatnot.

even with these overpowered phalanx, I'm a bad player when using them hauhauhauhaah

Their deployment is bugged as well, which means they sometimes will run around without properly forming up. This happens most often if you actually try to play historically, with lifting the pikes before re-deploying.

[Bonapartist]

I am not using them in prolonged melee, I am disengaging and repeating the charge. Approximately 1/2 of my missile troops are slingers, although they now need to be imported to the eastern front.

Mercenaries? I've bought exactly one unit in all of my games. The money involved is so astronomical that I'd rather just produce a slight excess of troops at all times and just pay that smaller bill for a better pay off.

[BirgerJarl]

A very effective way to deal with a phallanx is just to charge your men through it (getting very close where they can actualy fight) and then atacking (double click behind the unit you want them to swarm around.) This is probably an exploit to some extent, (and I dont think the AI will do it) but if you surround/missile from behind a phallanx and combine with this, its very effective.

[athanaric]

A very effective way to deal with a phallanx is just to charge your men through it (getting very close where they can actualy fight) and then atacking (double click behind the unit you want them to swarm around.) This is probably an exploit to some extent, (and I dont think the AI will do it) but if you surround/missile from behind a phallanx and combine with this, its very effective.

The AI cheats like hell, so it doesn't really matter. Perhaps with S2TW and its allegedly new AI, CA will finally implement an AI that doesn't cheat on "normal" difficulty.

[Brapbrapbap]

Yeah, i think if you swarm them enough, they'll switch to swords, that makes them a bit easier to handle.

[torongill]

The problem I get is when I have my thracian disruptors already hacking at the phalanx, the phalanx turns(phalanx scythe) and suddenly my guys are like 10 down. I'm really thinking about slashing the attack ability of the phalanx. I'm currently fighting against the all-devouring grey flood and it pretty ridiculous, every turn I get to fight one or two battles, almost every one of them has 5-8 phalanx units. I actually managed to make them somewhat less scarier by making them form 10 deep, which, if we assume 16-deep was the way they normally did battles(that's the Diadochi, not Alex) is much closer to reality* and they respond better to flanking and rear attacks. But all the examples stated so far are correct. What I do is have a unit of galatian fanatics(64 of them, out of 120 ten years ago), formed two deep, then just behind them thracian cleavers, three deep. This is the moment where I admit to adding to the body weight of the naked fanatics, now they have 1.9 I believe. This way they are more disruptive to enemy formations and well, it represents more their wild fighting. In my defence, I did that in my Romani campaign, at the time when I didn't even know there were fanatic mercs and I was facing quite a few Gaesatae in northern Italy. So it's fanatics leading the charge, from the rear, first javelins, then warcry and charge, after them come the rhomphaias and it's basically over.

The Polybian legion in battle formation is 11 deep(4+4+3), which in reality was somewhere around 15-19(6-8 for hastati and principes and 3 deep for the triarii) and that basically corresponds to the 16 deep of the hellenic phalanx, which is why I chose 10 deep.

[A_Dane]

are you playing on medium battle difficulty? I've never had this much trouble with phalanxes, not even the elite ones. Something to pin them down, and a good cavalry charge or 2 usually does the trick..
Also, you thought about buying Merc medium Phalanxes for pinning?

[Faramir D'Andunie]

Sadly a lot of your issues are hardcoded to RTW and noone but CA themselves can fix em. Or can they?

are you playing on medium battle difficulty? I've never had this much trouble with phalanxes, not even the elite ones. Something to pin them down, and a good cavalry charge or 2 usually does the trick..
Also, you thought about buying Merc medium Phalanxes for pinning?

Agreed. First of all check what battle difficulty you plan on. I never had too many issues fighting phalanxes, except when I was trying a VH/VH campaign as KH (After seeing distuinguished hoplites loosing in a siege to haploi I was way too annoyed to continue).

Now where phalanxes are stupidly strong is auto resolve calculations. Not sure on the why, but that is another story.

What I find to work extremely well against AI phalanxes. Tie em down with something on guard mode, that can survive punishement and deployed with deep ranks. Use missiles to weaken them as much as possible from the rear, and when they loose a morale status to steady (or when their numbers were reduced a lot by missile fire) attack them with a flanking force. Ideally a strong cavalry charge but infantry works as well. Rout em not kill em on the spot if possible. Though you are playing the Romani, you don't have anything close to decent cavalry for that. At least not to compared to eastern factions.


It is very very very very important to make sure that whatever is flanking a phalanx is not a better quality unit from whatever ties it down, as the AI phalanx will turn around face em.

The shield value is not such a great problem, unless you try to shoot em from the front. Save your ammo for when you have hit em without it.

Their deployment is bugged as well, which means they sometimes will run around without properly forming up. This happens most often if you actually try to play historically, with lifting the pikes before re-deploying

Don't forget the dancing phalangites who wander off from the battle and how even more buggy they are when using them on sieges.

[athanaric]

Don't forget the dancing phalangites who wander off from the battle and how even more buggy they are when using them on sieges.

Yeah it's a real pain to catch them all if they rout.

[Faramir D'Andunie]

Yeah it's a real pain to catch them all if they rout.

Not what I was referring to. I call dancing phalangite the bug where after beeing in combat for a while certain lone soldiers of the unit will wander off alone and appear to be in a dancing position.

Most infantry is a pain to catch em all when they rout, hence having a reserve unit of light fast cavalry with good stamina just for that job. Even if it is the most basic javelin armed cavalry, its a pain to rout an army and see it escape because your men are too tired to chase em.