Russian pipeline

[Siena72]

26.10.2005

Adamkus meets with Merkel, Schroeder, raises thorny pipeline issue

By The Baltic Times


VILNIUS – President Valdas Adamkus met with German Chancellor Gerhard Schroder and chancellor-elect Angela Merkel and expressed the Baltic states’ disappointment that they had been left out of a strategic energy project between Germany and Russia.

Rather than criticizing the pipeline directly, Adamkus, who was in Berlin, said that EU states needed to speak with one voice in foreign policy, especially vis-à-vis Russia. Incoming Chancellor Merkel said on Tuesday that she understands Lithuania’s concern over the $5 billion gas pipeline project that will connect Russia and Germany under the Baltic Sea.

She told Adamkus that she is aware of the problems – including environment – that could arise if construction of the pipeline goes ahead.

Merkel even said she believes Russia could use the pipeline to pressure Germany and other EU countries and promised to raise the issue when meeting with Russian leaders, according to various reports.

Merkel is set to become chancellor on Nov. 22.

Russia and Germany signed the historic pipeline deal in September. The pipeline bypasses the Baltics and Poland and given Russia, which has the largest supplies of natural gas in the world, direct access to its largest consumer.

The Baltic states bristled at the project, calling it “political” and “contrary to economic sense.”

The three countries and Poland had been hoping that any new pipeline would run through their territory and become both a source of revenue and a guarantor that Russia would not use existing pipelines to the region as a tool of influence. Russia, however, is loathe to depend on the Baltics and Poland, with whom relations are perennially sour, since its two existing pipelines to Europe via Ukraine and Belarus have proven to be unreliable.

Merkel told Adamkus that Germany should pay more attention to the smaller EU members. In her opinion, the European Union should pursue a common policy towards Russia. “We should do this, or at least try to do this,” she was quoted as saying.

Meanwhile, Schroeder told Adamkus he would not budge on the project, since every nation had the right to guarantee its energy supplies.

In short - the matter here is this:

Germany - just wants to get gas. Does not give a damn about other EU nieghbors
Russia - wants political card against Baltic countries and Poland, so it can deal directly with Western Europe. "Divide and rule" in other words.
Difficult to see economy in having pipeline on the bottom of the sea. Much more difficult to maintain.

Baltic countries and Poland - does not want to become political pawn in Western European and Russia's games. From economic standpoint - pipeline on land is much cheaper and easier to maintain.


Your opinion?

[Erik]

Bottom line: the EU doesn't care about the baltic states.
In their minds they should just be glad they were allowed to join in the first place.

[RusskiSoldat]

The three countries and Poland had been hoping that any new pipeline would run through their territory and become both a source of revenue and a guarantor that Russia would not use existing pipelines to the region as a tool of influence. Russia, however, is loathe to depend on the Baltics and Poland, with whom relations are perennially sour, since its two existing pipelines to Europe via Ukraine and Belarus have proven to be unreliable.

Damn straight.
If the Baltic states and Poland bastards think they can control us, they have yet to realize their insignificance in international affaris (particularly the former part, at least Poland is a large country).

[Siena72]

Damn straight.
If the Baltic states and Poland bastards think they can control us, they have yet to realize their insignificance in international affaris (particularly the former part, at least Poland is a large country).

in fact - it is the other way around - Russia tries to control Baltic states, and Russia has to realize, that it will not be so easy.
It has nothing to do with significance or insignificance in international affairs. It is the will of the people. They have lived in the state controled by Russians, they saw where that leads, and they have had enough.

Bottom line: the EU doesn't care about the baltic states.
In their minds they should just be glad they were allowed to join in the first place.

Seems like it.
Fortunately Baltic states are used to depend on themselves against huge odds. So hopefully they will prevail.

[Tiwaz]

In short - the matter here is this:

Germany - just wants to get gas. Does not give a damn about other EU nieghbors
Russia - wants political card against Baltic countries and Poland, so it can deal directly with Western Europe. "Divide and rule" in other words.
Difficult to see economy in having pipeline on the bottom of the sea. Much more difficult to maintain.

Baltic countries and Poland - does not want to become political pawn in Western European and Russia's games. From economic standpoint - pipeline on land is much cheaper and easier to maintain.


Your opinion?

In short. I agree with Adamkus that EU has to have unified front against Russia.
AND against USA. (and rest of the world for that matter)
So I think this is a good reminder for baltics on who they should pay more attention to.
You can't go against EU and expect not to get hurt by it.

[Maximus I]

In short. I agree with Adamkus that EU has to have unified front against Russia.
AND against USA. (and rest of the world for that matter)
So I think this is a good reminder for baltics on who they should pay more attention to.
You can't go against EU and expect not to get hurt by it.

Hmm... but what if Russia and USA will join forces against their common enemy (EU)?It won't look pretty for the EU.

[wilpuri]

In short. I agree with Adamkus that EU has to have unified front against Russia.
AND against USA. (and rest of the world for that matter)
So I think this is a good reminder for baltics on who they should pay more attention to.
You can't go against EU and expect not to get hurt by it.

I don't understand why we need a unified front against the U.S.? I understand that dealing with other powers must happen as a unified force, or otherwise what little force Europe has will be lost, but why against the U.S.? I understand that Russia, as it exists in the region and continuously violates the airspace of EU countries, but I've always viewed USA as an ally with some temporary management issues.

[Tiwaz]

I don't understand why we need a unified front against the U.S.? I understand that dealing with other powers must happen as a unified force, or otherwise what little force Europe has will be lost, but why against the U.S.? I understand that Russia, as it exists in the region and continuously violates the airspace of EU countries, but I've always viewed USA as an ally with some temporary management issues.

Because USA does not have interests of anyone else but USA in it's mind. Everyone already agrees that there has to be unified effort when facing Russia or China but people still tend to think that USA would be somehow different.

It is not.

USA is competitor above all else, and becomes even bigger competitor as EU gains power. Besides, as we have seen with Bush administration there is real chance that their goverment only understands concept of power. If EU would have given unified no as an answer to idea of Iraq invasion it would have most likely have had much greater effect, perhaps leading to avoiding this charade. EU failed to act in unison and we all know the results.

[BMV]

ok i havent read last posts but RusskiSoldat is my enemy now.
and since i'm from baltic states(Lithuania) there isnt much talking about it here as we dont care about it much but realy why germany and russia wants to avoid us?

Bottom line: the EU doesn't care about the baltic states.In their minds they should just be glad they were allowed to join in the first place.

I hate Erik too.EDIT:well sorry your not on my hate list enymore
and if eny one thinks that russia can do something (besides war) too us then...
o well your not living here so you will not know or understand

and i realy starting too hate russia(not people living there)

Just the soil, eh?

ass always ... i ment its leaders and other :wub:s that still live in communism era

[wilpuri]

and i realy starting too hate russia(not people living there)

Just the soil, eh?

[Erik]

I hate Erik too.

Hey! Don't blame the messenger.
I don't condone the way the EU views the Baltic states, I just reported my observation.
And my country, the Netherlands, is in pretty much the same situation.
The only reason they even pretend to listen to our requests is because we contribute so much.

Let's face it: France+Germany control the EU, all other countries are being ignored.

[Marshal Qin]

I hate Erik too.EDIT:well sorry your not on my hate list enymore
and if eny one thinks that russia can do something (besides war) too us then...
o well your not living here so you will not know or understand

and i realy starting too hate russia(not people living there)

could someone please hate us too, its getting boring being liked by everybody just because we're stuck down the bottom of the planet and out of all this political crap. We have to rely on hating each other just to get some excitement. JI and OBL don't count btw.

Learn to verbally fellate Nazi Germany and you're a full fledged balt.

lol, I used to know a Lithuanian guy who was in the SS. The Russians murdered his family in front of him and he survived with a bullet in his arm. I think its more a case of 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' no matter how badly that friend acts. It was kind of embarassing having to tell him to stop singing SS battle songs to visiting German tourists in the local pub.

On Topic.

Its a good point that was brought up about how Russia is attempting to manipulate new members of the EU by proving to them how little value the bigger members of the EU place on them. As TIWAZ said, if the EU can't show a united front then they will never be a political force that can truly influence the actions of the superpowers and will always be seen as a voice from the past.

[Trey]

Because USA does not have interests of anyone else but USA in it's mind. Everyone already agrees that there has to be unified effort when facing Russia or China but people still tend to think that USA would be somehow different.

It is not.

USA is competitor above all else, and becomes even bigger competitor as EU gains power. Besides, as we have seen with Bush administration there is real chance that their goverment only understands concept of power. If EU would have given unified no as an answer to idea of Iraq invasion it would have most likely have had much greater effect, perhaps leading to avoiding this charade. EU failed to act in unison and we all know the results.

Of course, but the US supports you because it is in its' interests. You think the EU would act any different? You'd better hope it wouldn't.

EDIT- Acutually, The US does not only have it's own interest in mind, because in the end that would end up destroying it. It Puts its own interests first , but that is not its only interest.

[Tiwaz]

Of course, but the US supports you because it is in its' interests. You think the EU would act any different? You'd better hope it wouldn't.

EDIT- Acutually, The US does not only have it's own interest in mind, because in the end that would end up destroying it. It Puts its own interests first , but that is not its only interest.

And if ever USA started to think it was not in their interest to support EU it would not. And neither does EU support USA just to be sympathetic, if USA receives any support it means those giving it have to feel they get something out of it. Increasingly often what US goverment and most of EU think as their interest are in bad conflict. That is why EU has to be unified to provide better block against USA.

Nothing personal, same block would work against Russia and rising China but they do not expect EU to put their interests ahead even when doing so would hurt EU badly, like USA does.

And I do not mean Germany would go for the pipeline out of purely childish spite but you can bet your last shirt that there is also the component of reminding balts and polish of their position in the world. All agreements like this are generally combinations of many different parts and as one small there most likely is way to show that if nations do not play nice along EU rules they might suffer. It is not main reason or even close to top reasons but one of them.

EU is not organisation where you can pick the cherries from cake and leave rest. If balts and polish want EU to shield them they better get used to thinking things from EU view instead of trying to only leech from EU without showing any signs of being willing to work towards EU success, from which depends future of Europe more than little.


Oh yes, and in regards of Russia cutting oil and gas to EU which is in later post in this same thread. Russia is not only source of those materials. Price might be higher but it would easily hurt Russia more to lose large market than EU to lose cheaper gas and oil.

[RusskiSoldat]

in fact - it is the other way around - Russia tries to control Baltic states

By not building a pipline through your territory and allowing you to control us more than you should (in other words in even the most minor way)?

, and Russia has to realize, that it will not be so easy.

Who knows.
We live in a fairly uncertain world.

It has nothing to do with significance or insignificance in international affairs. It is the will of the people. They have lived in the state controled by Russians, they saw where that leads, and they have had enough.

The population of the Baltic states combined is less than that of many major cities.
Poland is a differrent matter, but the point is, that I fail to see what interests we have in either of the two.
The only reason we care is because getting to Kaliningrad by land requries going through your territory.
As for the will of the people, as if that matters in any significant way.
History has proven otherwise many, many times.
Just thought you should know that.

[Siena72]

By not building a pipline through your territory and allowing you to control us more than you should (in other words in even the most minor way)?

So who is trying to control who, then? Do you imagine situation where Baltic countries would attempt to control Russia? Was that the history of past 100 years?

besides, there are already pipelines going through Belorussia and Ukraine, so it is not the first one.

Who knows.
We live in a fairly uncertain world.

The population of the Baltic states combined is less than that of many major cities.
Poland is a differrent matter, but the point is, that I fail to see what interests we have in either of the two.
The only reason we care is because getting to Kaliningrad by land requries going through your territory.
As for the will of the people, as if that matters in any significant way.
History has proven otherwise many, many times.
Just thought you should know that.

Check your history. Will of the people has always been the main factor.
Only temporarily can violence and intimidation win.

Population size is only part of the equasion - you should check also territory size. Baltic countries are way more densely inhabitted than Russia.

In short. I agree with Adamkus that EU has to have unified front against Russia.
AND against USA. (and rest of the world for that matter)
So I think this is a good reminder for baltics on who they should pay more attention to.
You can't go against EU and expect not to get hurt by it.

I think first of all, that Germany is not EU.
Secondly, it is naive to think that by blindly agreeing with all that Germany and France wants - Baltic countries will gain more. Check Shroeder quote:

every nation had the right to guarantee its energy supplies

does that sound like "oh, do as we want, and we will pay attention to you"

[RusskiSoldat]

So who is trying to control who, then?

The Baltic states attempt to control us has utterly failed seeing as how we were smart enough to not build the pipeline through them.

Do you imagine situation where Baltic countries would attempt to control Russia?

Yeah, they're full of themselves now that they're EU.

Was that the history of past 100 years?

Funny thing you should mention that, the Baltic states were planning on invading Russia in 1930, and the west stood behind them (now this may seem ridiculous now, but back then Russia was in such a poor state that the Baltics alone beating us was possible).
In fact the only thing that stopped all of you was the Great Depression.

besides, there are already pipelines going through Belorussia and Ukraine, so it is not the first one.

1. Belarussians and Russians have great relations, practicaly same language and we consider them our brothers.
2. Ukrainish are split between the Eastern part which should belong to Russia and the Western part, not to mention we have fairly warm relations with them as a nation.
The Polish and Baltics ****ing hate us (and we return the favor) so it's completely differrent.

Check your history. Will of the people has always been the main factor.

Wow, people must have really liked being enslaved since that went on for over 300 years.

Only temporarily can violence and intimidation win.

Yes, I suppose the majority of the time with small breaks does technically count as temporarily.

Population size is only part of the equasion - you should check also territory size. Baltic countries are way more densely inhabitted than Russia.

What's your point?
If we were twice as big as you and you were four times as densely populated, this would've been valid.
Also go try settling in the permafrost, then you might just get why our population density is low.

I think first of all, that Germany is not EU.

Denying well known facts?
I guess it's a step up from displaying massive ignorance like the rest of your post.

Secondly, it is naive to think that by blindly agreeing with all that Germany and France wants - Baltic countries will gain more. Check Shroeder quote:

EU= Germano-Franch domination of Europe.
Now this isn't the middle ages (or even 70 years ago) so European countries can't randomly conquer other European countries, so the two most important ones buried the hatchet after centuries of rivalry and decided to peacefully assimilate Europe.
Not working too well so far, though.

does that sound like "oh, do as we want, and we will pay attention to you"

Yeah, stronger countries will attempt to control smaller ones.
Life's a *****.

[Siena72]

The Baltic states attempt to control us has utterly failed seeing as how we were smart enough to not build the pipeline through them.

Yeah, they're full of themselves now that they're EU.

LOL
Seems like Russia has inferriority complex. They are so afraid of small countries, which can do absolutely no harm to them.
That's like soldier in the tank pointing gun at the small kid and saying "Good thing I have this tank, or this kid would have robbed me".

Funny thing you should mention that, the Baltic states were planning on invading Russia in 1930, and the west stood behind them (now this may seem ridiculous now, but back then Russia was in such a poor state that the Baltics alone beating us was possible).
In fact the only thing that stopped all of you was the Great Depression.

wow...
I don't know where do you get your history knowledge from? Cartoons?
Baltic countries preparing to attack Russia in 1930s... That's beyond absurd.

The Polish and Baltics ****ing hate us (and we return the favor) so it's completely differrent.

I wonder why they hate Russia.

Wow, people must have really liked being enslaved since that went on for over 300 years.

Yes, I suppose the majority of the time with small breaks does technically count as temporarily.

so what changed after those 300 years? Aliens came and liberated people?
Or people just refused to be enslawed?
It is will of the people that counts, nothing else. Violence can change it only temporarily.

What's your point?
If we were twice as big as you and you were four times as densely populated, this would've been valid.
Also go try settling in the permafrost, then you might just get why our population density is low.

so what's your point?

Denying well known facts?
I guess it's a step up from displaying massive ignorance like the rest of your post.

LOL
So, according to your knowledge - Germany is EU and EU is Germany?

EU= Germano-Franch domination of Europe.
Now this isn't the middle ages (or even 70 years ago) so European countries can't randomly conquer other European countries, so the two most important ones buried the hatchet after centuries of rivalry and decided to peacefully assimilate Europe.
Not working too well so far, though.

Yeah, stronger countries will attempt to control smaller ones.

The point of EU was that all countries have a say. If EU will become just a German-French dominated Europe (by the way - I doubt UK, Italy, Spain, Poland and other countries will agree with that) - then EU future is bleak.

Life's a *****.

well, I hope you will find a better place to live then or that the live will improve for you.

[Tiwaz]

Germany is not EU as whole. But it is one of the two major players in it. (Britain is not in my opinion major player since it tries it's best to avoid being involved and therefore loses any power it could have)
Furthermore, by showing lack of respect for general EU opinion and jumping on the wagon with USA but at next moment demanding whole EU to act in unison Baltics are showing great deal of hypocrisy.

Perhaps this pipeline reminds Baltics that they are dependant on EU, EU is not dependant on them. Like it or not that is spirit of the game. If Baltics were smart (and "New Europe" as whole) they would realise not to ignore opinion of France and Germany when those two have support from some of the others. (if it was just France and Germany it would be possible to topple them, when they have support it becomes practical impossibility)

[Siena72]

Germany is not EU as whole. But it is one of the two major players in it. (Britain is not in my opinion major player since it tries it's best to avoid being involved and therefore loses any power it could have)
Furthermore, by showing lack of respect for general EU opinion and jumping on the wagon with USA but at next moment demanding whole EU to act in unison Baltics are showing great deal of hypocrisy.

Perhaps this pipeline reminds Baltics that they are dependant on EU, EU is not dependant on them. Like it or not that is spirit of the game. If Baltics were smart (and "New Europe" as whole) they would realise not to ignore opinion of France and Germany when those two have support from some of the others. (if it was just France and Germany it would be possible to topple them, when they have support it becomes practical impossibility)

I don't buy this line of argument. You make it sound as if Germany made this deal just to take revenge on Baltic countries for being friendly to USA.
That would be a bit childish, don't you think? And these kind of deals are not made out of childish spite.

Besides EU does not have a good history of assisting countries in need (Kosovo anyone?). While USA has. Iraq and other blunders do not negate that.
Germany's behavior in this pipeline business actually just proves that Baltic coutries have to rely on USA and not on EU countries.

Like with this gas pipe. USA will not buy Russian gas but Europe where old nuclear plants are starting to close the end of their useful age, power requirements rise and enviromentally friendly thinking is against coal and oil getting Russian oil is very interesting possibility.

Ironic twist is that EU requires Lithuania to close its nuclear plant because it is old, although all expert commissions confirm that it is still in good state and it is very safe.
So Lithuania has to be nice to EU and close the plant, but EU does not give a **** how Lithuania will get energy. (read that Shroeder quote again: "every nation had the right to guarantee its energy supplies")
Double standards if you ask me...