Do Israel’s security concerns justify its actions against Gaza?

[skag]

I don't wanna start a debate on Gaza & co. as there's already a thread in the mudpit. I just want you to vote plz

I want to see how's the TWC community, compared to europe.
www.euronews.net

[Sphere]

In the short term, the strict embargo does improve the safety of Israeli citizens. In the long term though, a poor Gaza is a dangerous Gaza. It's true for a ghetto anywhere in the world, the US, France, Mexico etc.


However, I think an even bigger mistake Israel is making is how it is treating the West Bank now that it is controlled by Fatah and almost completely peaceful. It is one thing to try to weaken Hamas with an embargo, but it is quite another to undermine Fatah through settlers.

What message does it send when Israel forcibly removes Israeli settlers from the violent and volatile Gaza Strip, but aggressively supports settlement in the peaceful and quiet West Bank? That is very bad policy if you are looking for peace and security.

[Azog 150]

In the short term, the strict embargo does improve the safety of Israeli citizens. In the long term though, a poor Gaza is a dangerous Gaza. It's true for a ghetto anywhere in the world, the US, France, Mexico etc.


However, I think an even bigger mistake Israel is making is how it is treating the West Bank now that it is controlled by Fatah and almost completely peaceful. It is one thing to try to weaken Hamas with an embargo, but it is quite another to undermine Fatah through settlers.

What message does it send when Israel forcibly removes Israeli settlers from the violent and volatile Gaza Strip, but aggressively supports settlement in the peaceful and quiet West Bank? That is very bad policy if you are looking for peace and security.

I agree 100%. Israel's blockade of Gaza is only going to create a future generation of Gazans who are immensely resentful of Israel (Even moreso) and will be full on board with Hamas aims of the destruction of Israel. Hell, I would if I was living in a very overcrowded walled-off bit of land that gets bombed on a regular basis and I am forced to eat food that has come through smuggling tunnels

[Yoni]

The poll in CNN is very positive towards Israel.

[Georgy Zhukov]

Some of its measures are. I generally agreed with Operation Cast Lead, but the blockade is too stringent. More essential supplies need to be let in and some building materials need to be let in.

[♔Goodguy1066♔]

What's the purpose of the "I don't know" option? If someone doesn't know then he shouldn't be voting, like in the general elections...

[skag]

The poll in CNN is very positive towards Israel.

not surprising ... CNN, American people is in general more or less influencable by medias and gov.
For sure a lot more than europeans. Criticism is in general strongly linked with culture - education
And everyone knows europeans are far more educated than americans. In general

What's the purpose of the "I don't know" option? If someone doesn't know then he shouldn't be voting, like in the general elections...

I don't know either, ask to euronews

[Border Patrol]

American people is in general more or less influencable by medias and gov.
For sure a lot more than europeans. Criticism is in general strongly linked with culture - education
And everyone knows europeans are far more educated than americans.

Mmhmm...

I remember when the War on Drugs started, I took up arms against the local weed farmers...

Please don't make such ignorant and stereotypical statements, they just make you look stupid.

[skag]

the difference you see, is that I mentioned "in general"

this implie that I make a generalization and a stereotype.
Conclusion : I'm aware of what I'm saying, that I'm making a generalization and a stereotype of USA people. That also means that not all US citizens are ignorant ...

Then, if you don't know the definition of the word "general", you will look stupid
I know there are lot of meanings ... But I'm sure you are able to figure out what is the meaning appropriated to the previous sentence

[Visna]

The short term security concerns could be used to justify some level of blockade, but it's far, far too strict atm. And in the long term it's catastrophic. Besides, it's clearly not working as intended, but Israel has spent the last 4-5 years or so painting itself into a corner. And that doesn't only apply to Hamas and Gaza, but to Fatah and the West Bank as well.

[Gromovnik]

OK, I'm an idiot, 'cause I can't see the poll in your link. All I can see are japanese schoolgirls screaming.

[JP226]

PPeople keep talking out of their ass about how strict the blockade is. Where is an actual list of goods that can and cannot enter Gaza?

[Visna]

PPeople keep talking out of their ass about how strict the blockade is. Where is an actual list of goods that can and cannot enter Gaza?

Israel has never published a list of what goods are banned and why.
But a short list and it's immidiate and long term impacts can be found for example here

Others are decided on a case-by-case basis. Matches for example have recently been allowed, while shipments of for example toys have been blocked from entering.

Perhaps it's time for an airlift, Berlin-style.

[JP226]

Israel has never published a list of what goods are banned and why.
But a short list and it's immidiate and long term impacts can be found for example here

Others are decided on a case-by-case basis. Matches for example have recently been allowed, while shipments of for example toys have been blocked from entering.

Perhaps it's time for an airlift, Berlin-style.

Hmm that's actually about what I would think a blockade would be like. It's not something that's supposed to be happy and pretty. It's meant to disrupt the economy, upset the people and force out a group like Hamas.

It's a legitimate discussion that the opposite of what's intended could happen. Then what are the alternatives? Allow them everything except weapons, although those can be made out of anything, and let them go about their daily lives as Hamas eventually rearms and once again attacks Isreal? It's ok to poo poo an idea, but come up with legitimate alternatives. Sitting around a campfire singing songs and talking about their differences isn't going to get things done over there. And it would seem to me, the only other option is an outright occupation and guerilla war in Gaza.

[Gromovnik]

Perhaps it's time for an airlift, Berlin-style.

Good idea. It would be a good shooting exercise for IDF.

[Visna]

Hmm that's actually about what I would think a blockade would be like. It's not something that's supposed to be happy and pretty. It's meant to disrupt the economy, upset the people and force out a group like Hamas.

Apart from the moral issues involved in collective punishment which in itself imho is not fitting for the liberal democracy Israel claims to be, it has shown not to work. Hamas is becoming increasingly popular, and the anger is directed at Israel. It's a self defeating strategy, and it's detrimental to Israel's long term security. All those children growing up in Gaza right now, and there are a lot of them, won't exactly have fond childhood memories of Israeli policies. They're growing up with no future and unless Israel changes course soon they'll have an area right next door that's perfect recruiting grounds for Israel's enemies. Unless of course, it's already too late.

It's a legitimate discussion that the opposite of what's intended could happen. Then what are the alternatives? Allow them everything except weapons, although those can be made out of anything, and let them go about their daily lives as Hamas eventually rearms and once again attacks Isreal? It's ok to poo poo an idea, but come up with legitimate alternatives. Sitting around a campfire singing songs and talking about their differences isn't going to get things done over there. And it would seem to me, the only other option is an outright occupation and guerilla war in Gaza.

For there to be any sort of meaningful peace process both parties must first be willing to talk in the first place. As for Israel, they refuse to talk to Hamas, even through 3rd party mediators. "Never negotiate with terrorists" and all that. But Hamas is also a political movement, and they cannot be defeated through military action alone, much less through blockades. One approach could be to prop up Fatah, offer the Palestinians a viable alternative to Hamas, but they're being undermined as well through for example by making new settlements or expanding on the existing ones in the West Bank and east Jerusalem.

Good idea. It would be a good shooting exercise for IDF.

It was more of a tongue in cheek comment, but I don't see why not? The western allies were willing to risk a third world war during the Berlin blockade, and it was eventually lifted when it was shown that unless the Soviets went all the way and began to shoot down the planes, the airlift could keep the city supplied practically forever. Regrettably much of it will hinge on the US since their contribution will be vital to such an enterprise, and it doesn't look like the US is at that point yet. But give it time, Israeli policies are becoming increasingly difficult to justify, even for the US.

[RomanSoldier9001]

In case of Israel defitly yes some activists may appear with supplies,medical aid and food! Oh no thats a threat for israel helping starved people!
I would say this Do Gaza’s security concerns justify its actions against ISrael? and the aswer yes!

[uzi716]

No, and they are only making things worse for themselves by cutting off Gaza and pissing off the people

[Farnan]

No, cause it undermines Israeli security in the long and short term.

[Jom]

Turkey is yet another country that Israel has alienated which is never good for any country's security.