Do we live in a true democracy?

[Amorphos]

Do we live in a true democracy? or even the one our forefathers had!

Going by the quote from rolling thunder [below], it would seam that the city [banks in particular] have almost total power over our economies, it almost makes govt something of a façade.
Surely in a democracy the people should have control over their economies via their government? If we did have control and money was issued by the government and not by the banks as a loan we have to pay off [but never asked for], then we could avoid the boom bust/recession/depression economy!

How else do you get accountability and democracy into commerce? Sure govt are taking measures to tax and levy banks to such an end, but as soon as we are out of recession all power will go back to the banks, they can put all the measures they wish in place but they wont dare do enough to stop the same from happening again.

The Central Bank maintains a slightly-expansionary monetary policy. The money supply grows in line with GDP (Or usually slightly above it). This allows price rises to become low, long-term inflation, thus leading to the very slow devaluation of currency. Why do they do this? Because a fixed monetary policy (Keeping the money supply at 0) will create deflationary pressure - prices will begin to fall. Businessmen will perceive they are experiencing lower revenues (even though in real terms they are not, the actual money value of their products/services will fall). They will cut output, and sack people. GDP growth will be stalled, the economy will not expand and so on. If you maintain a slight level of inflation, business owners will be making (at least) a monetary profit as well as a real one, and will continue to expand output/employment.

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...01#post7432501
Post #42

[Amagi]

I miss a third option. Neither do I want the banks to run the country, nor the stupid mob.

Votes/Voices should be meassured, not counted. Mob rule doesnt work.
I want dictatorship or Monarchy not bound to inbreeding, with a democratic touch (plebiscite on certain things).

Voted for the mob though in your poll.

[Amorphos]

Amagi

I miss a third option. Neither do I want the banks to run the country, nor the stupid mob.

You want one part of ‘the stupid mob’ to rule over the rest, is that what you are saying? hence no third option.

Votes/Voices should be meassured, not counted. Mob rule doesnt work.
I want dictatorship or Monarchy not bound to inbreeding, with a democratic touch (plebiscite on certain things).

Democracy isn’t mob rule, the people vote for a party to represent them. The party could be anything you want.

Personally I think we the people are quite capable of thinking for ourselves, its just a matter of having some say or little say [the banks].

…and monarchism is just ridiculous. I made all my answers to that on the thread of that name [or similar], and you are welcome to go over them if you so wish.

[Amagi]

Amagi
Democracy isn’t mob rule, the people vote for a party to represent them. The party could be anything you want.

Democracy always turns into corporatocracy. We have no democracy nor will we ever have one.
Its like communism a fancy illusion, that eventually turns into disaster.
If votes had any effect, they were outlawed. You fell for the idea of hegelian dialectic and macchiavellian puppet tricks.

Amagi
Personally I think we the people are quite capable of thinking for ourselves, its just a matter of having some say or little say [the banks].

Most of the people are confident when their needs are fullfilled. You are way too optmistic on their intelligence. They will fall for the nicest looking, the most eloquent, or the best promoted candidate. Just look at obumma.

Amagi
…and monarchism is just ridiculous. I made all my answers to that on the thread of that name [or similar], and you are welcome to go over them if you so wish.

Why do you think people loved the Kennedy´s so much? Because the americans wanted a monarch, a leader, a King.
Why do people go all hysteric over "the lord of the rings" movies? Because its about leaders and united peoples. Unified , not splitted by gay pride, women pride, black pride, white pride, yellow pride, movements.
Already george washington knew of the dangers of a party system.

We need uncorrupted leadership.

[Amorphos]

Democracy always turns into corporatocracy. We have no democracy nor will we ever have one.
Its like communism a fancy illusion, that eventually turns into disaster.

Your alternative would be?

I think we live in an age of increasing transparency and that alone will have a huge effect. We don’t need a revolution just truth.

I agree we live in a ‘corporatocracy’ and I hope [maybe in vein] that a peoples socialist democracy will prevail. …but not in the old style.

Most of the people are confident when their needs are fullfilled. You are way too optmistic on their intelligence. They will fall for the nicest looking, the most eloquent, or the best promoted candidate. Just look at obumma.

*Gasp* at the fact you are to some degree right, but in the main most people vote for who they agree with, and most people you speak to are intelligent. The dumb are certainly a minority.

Why do you think people loved the Kennedy´s so much? Because the americans wanted a monarch, a leader, a King.

Indeed, its so disappointing. Its like the peasants revolt in medieval England, we could have taken over but the leader got killed and the rest became headless chickens, ~ they needed a leader.

Why do people go all hysteric over "the lord of the rings" movies? Because its about leaders and united peoples.

I don’t, I think it was mindnumbingly polarised.

We need uncorrupted leadership.

You cannot have that without an equal measure of accountability! Even if you did for a time, it would be like you have hitler, then if germany had won, he would not have lived long due to ill health, then there would be a struggle for power. Dictatorship is just the way things were, it cannot be a progression to something better, only self realisation and enlightenment via anarchism/universalism can take us forwards.

[Amagi]

Your alternative would be?
I think we live in an age of increasing transparency and that alone will have a huge effect. We don’t need a revolution just truth.

The truth will make the people want a leader

*Gasp* at the fact you are to some degree right, but in the main most people vote for who they agree with, and most people you speak to are intelligent. The dumb are certainly a minority.

Yah I expressed myself to harshly here. I am tired and was kinda active here today...
This one expresses the mindset of 99% of the population:

"What you don't know isn't the problem; it's what you do 'know' that just isn't so."
-- Finley Peter Dunne ("Mr. Dooley")

I think thats a the problem we face today: 60years of media lies and propaganda was like holding a blender into the people´s heads. They know the facts, but important pieces are missing, hence the utterly misjudging whats going on.

"Controll the history-> control the future" I am paraphrasing Orwell here as I am really tired and too lazy to google.

You cannot have that without an equal measure of accountability! Even if you did for a time, it would be like you have hitler, then if germany had won, he would not have lived long due to ill health, then there would be a struggle for power. Dictatorship is just the way things were, it cannot be a progression to something better, only self realisation and enlightenment via anarchism/universalism can take us forwards.

Anarchy is the absolute contrary what I am looking for, here we disagree bit
But where we do agree I guess, is to polish our boots, take a run-up, and kick the banksters that harshly into their butts, that the boot remains sticking there

Gn8

[Aetius]

The Federal Reserve has far greater power than most people understand

"If the people only understood the rank injustice of our money and banking system, there would be a revolution by morning." - President Andrew Jackson

"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered." - Thomas Jefferson 1816

"I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. . . . corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed." - U.S. President Abraham Lincoln

"The real truth of the matter is, as you and I know, that a financial element in the large centers has owned the government of the U.S. since the days of Andrew Jackson." - Franklin D. Roosevelt

So yes without going into any uninteresting detail; power to the banks is the USA.

[43rdFoot]

I assume you are talking about the U.S., and in that case, we have never lived in a democracy and for very good reason. We live in a constitutional republic and we have been since 1787.

[Sir Pignans]

No, we live in a representative democracy.

Direct democracy is the 'truest' form of democracy.

[ShockBlast]

No, we live in a representative democracy.

Direct democracy is the 'truest' form of democracy.

Exactly what i wanted to say,we have representative democracy.

[Amorphos]

We live in various forms of democracy - loosely speaking, no need to nitpick.

My complaint is that we vote for a government to guide the nation for us ~ as our representatives. The banks are not voted for but probably have more power than the govt. the lesson of our times gentlemen is surely that power must have equal proportions of accountability, and that is what democracy aims to do. ...but there is no democracy in commerce/the banks.

[ShockBlast]

We live in various forms of democracy - loosely speaking, no need to nitpick.

My complaint is that we vote for a government to guide the nation for us ~ as our representatives. The banks are not voted for but probably have more power than the govt. the lesson of our times gentlemen is surely that power must have equal proportions of accountability, and that is what democracy aims to do. ...but there is no democracy in commerce/the banks.

Well you are right.Banks and every major company who has huge income has a lot of influence.As communist as this might sound some people have too much money.Money IS power and for us to have a true democracy we should live in a place with planned economy,something i am against.
Some people are better then others so they should be allowed to rise above but we went too far,some companies have the power to force small countries do what those companies wish.

[conon394]

Why do you think people loved the Kennedy´s so much? Because the americans wanted a monarch, a leader, a King.

49.7% of the popular vote - took fewer states than tricky dick, not exactly adored as a king....

Why do people go all hysteric over "the lord of the rings" movies? Because its about leaders and united peoples. Unified , not splitted by gay pride, women pride, black pride, white pride, yellow pride, movements.

Huh?

nor the stupid mob.

Worked for Athens...

[Amorphos]

ShockBlast

Well you are right. Banks and every major company who has huge income has a lot of influence. As communist as this might sound some people have too much money. Money IS power and for us to have a true democracy we should live in a place with planned economy, something i am against.

I agree, here’s a thought experiment to show this in terms of wealth;

‘what if I owned the world and told everyone to get off my land’

You see that ownership necessarily becomes shared in the most extreme example, hence the more wealth one has, the greater the need to share it.

Some people are better then others so they should be allowed to rise above but we went too far, some companies have the power to force small countries do what those companies wish.

I don’t believe some people are better than others, the human brain is like a pc so anyone can be like anyone else, its simply about training and education. We are all born equal.

[duda]

USA is ANYTHING but a democracy. So is any other country that claims it's 'free' and 'democratic'.

[Amorphos]

USA is ANYTHING but a democracy. So is any other country that claims it's 'free' and 'democratic'.

Hence pressure needs to be put on our politicians to change.
or do you simply accept thats how it is?

[duda]

Hence pressure needs to be put on our politicians to change.
or do you simply accept thats how it is?

Mate, no pressure will ever change anything to perfection. It will simply create new advantages at the cost of new disadvantages. It is the rule of the earth. everything must have a balance. nothing can be too good or too bad.

[Amorphos]

Mate, no pressure will ever change anything to perfection. It will simply create new advantages at the cost of new disadvantages. It is the rule of the earth. everything must have a balance. nothing can be too good or too bad.

Agreed in the main, but generally I hope humanity is advancing, so its just a continuation of that.

If we managed to get some control over commerce, that would be massive. ...and i would take the dissadvantages in the light that they can be worked out.

[duda]

Agreed in the main, but generally I hope humanity is advancing, so its just a continuation of that.

If we managed to get some control over commerce, that would be massive. ...and i would take the dissadvantages in the light that they can be worked out.

YOU. but that would require millions of YOU. cos you'd never find that many people who think identically.
too many people are prone to corruption, greed, sloth etc etc etc

and btw, humans DO advance, but the rules of the game never change.

and what if a hundred people like you rule the world? even if you do a perfect job, is that not totalitarianism?

[Rolling Thunder]

Well, this thread is an amusing frenzy of misconception. The control of the Central Bank occurs like such: You elect the government. The government can appoint people to the boards of the Central Banks, and sets targets, and so on. However, government does not exercise control/power over the Central Bank directly. Why? Because when it does, it tends to use monetary policy to achieve political aims, rather than economic ones. Such as lowering the interest rates a year before the next general election to scrounge up votes (a very common and dangerous thing to do). Maintaining an Independent Central Bank is like maintaining an Independent Courts system. Yes, the people may not be directly influencing outcomes or even through elected representatives, but frankly, the people and their elected representatives are not qualified on economic matters.