[Citizen's referral]La♔De♔Da♔Brigadier Graham')

[Empress Meg]

Received May 17, 2010, 11:30 AM

Sent in by:

I'd like to bring a citizens referral again Brigadier Graham. In the thread: "Members" who belong to a site that organize Trolling of Flaming attacks on TWC. he makes slanderous accusations against staff, citizens, and members in general. Making accusations against other members of this site, which are baseless and cannot be backed with facts, and appear to be due to being slighted by said members on another forum, I feel is not conduct we want to condone in a citizen.

Thanks,

User:
La♔De♔Da♔Brigadier Graham

Sending a PM to the accused presently.

Devoirs The Empress

[Empress Meg]

The defense:

Statement

Hello members of the CdeC council and members of Hex, here is my statement concerning recent events.

Before we start I wish a ruling to be made that is must be clear that the CdeC member, EDIT must abstain in this case. He has on several occasions stated that this particular case has turned into something personal between Justinian and me. I on the other hand, have not mentioned or directed any claim of personal nature towards this CdeC member.
on any of the recent threads in question on TWC.
Therefore, EDIT or any CdeC member associated with the other site Shambhalla should not be able to be involved in this case as the will lack objectivity. This has already been seen within the threads. I must admit EDIT and I have shared less than cordial relationships in the past due to an incident when he referred to me as a spastic, (which I am sure you are aware is a derogatory reference to the injury I sustained while serving my country). I was asked by one of his friends to forgive his error and I did so and was very sincere in doing that, everyone can make a mistake, but it soon became clear that the apology I received was insincere and thus my whole reason for joining Shambhalla after being invited, was to find out whether or not this was true, but it soon became apparent that I was not of the same mindset, it seem they could "dish it out" but couldn't take it themselves,much like all cowards and bullies when confronted. By this time I had found out what I wanted to know anyway this gives you some insight into my request in addition to the activity in the threads.

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...=358181&page=4

Post 76
Yesterday, 12:09 PM /
Quote:
EDIT
Honestly Brig has been complaining about Shamb consistently for a while now and this whole business was the straw that broke the camel's back, that's why I've taken this so personally -- and there are few things on the internet I take personally.

It is clear that any member involved in this should equally be excluded from the events as it is without doubt even now from ongoing posts that they wish mob justice. This is a serious process and in any hearing people with vested/personal interest cannot be involved, I only ask that the same courtesy be extended to me at the outset

This is my defense to the "scrutiny in the CdeC". I believe what I did was within my duties as a Citizen and for the good of the TWC and its members! Therefore, " A - The accusation is false, I am innocent and did nothing wrong." is the only respectable option available.
What irritates me greatly is that these people contribute very little positively to TWC, other than to feed their own egos and try to look good to one another: it's very much a gang ethos.
There seems a sixth form mentality about a certain section of its membership. It seems mostly to reside in the discussion and debate areas, where these, aptly named man-boys, puff themselves up and "pontificate", as if their opinions actually mean anything to anyone other than themselves, and this is by no means restricted to the Shambhalla crowd, however, it does seem to attract that sort of personality too.

I would also add that this seems to be well know by site admins. as well and I have often wondered why this sort of thing goes on in TWC? when members in an off-site forum intend to disrupt and annoy other member then it is certainly a cause for concern I would say and action needs to be seen to be done, no question about it.
One time when voicing my concerns over Moderator practices and CdeC procedure, I approached an Administrator and was told, (words to this effect) would you see him losing his rank and titles on TWC? well I wouldn't like to see it happen to anyone, but subsequently I have revised this as it seems nobody would give a second thought about doing that to another member here if you ask me?
What I am tired of, is blatant hypocrisy from senior members of staff pontificating over other members, members whilst engaging in scurrilous activities which are clearly only to disrupt and undermine the harmony of TWC, now tell me is that right? because as far as I am aware this cannot possibly be correct and I am sure senior members here know of this but are "unable" or "apathetic" or dare I say it "unwilling" to put a stop to it? or at least investigate it will any amount of enthusiasm.
I acted alone on posting the OP in question and I thought it the right thing to do to pose question on the subject in the correct forum in the administration area the Question and answers thread here.....

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=358140

Post 6
May 15, 2010, 02:28 PM
EDIT
Quote
NO ONE ORGANIZES TROLLS OR RAIDS ON SHAMB.

Post 20
May 15, 2010, 03:44 PM
EDIT
Quote
No such thing exists or takes place on Shamb, I would have nothing to do with it.

Post 32
Old May 15, 2010,
EDIT
Quote
"Because you know, even if this "child rape" BS did happen it's perfectly acceptable to punish members on this forum for something they did on another website".

Post 42
May 15, 2010, 04:18 PM
EDIT
Quote
I'd like Brig to retract all of his statements that have no evidence backing them up, primarily the lies claiming we have a child rape thread as well as any nebulous statements implying condoning of such things by Shambhala, it's administration or its members, and we'll consider it even. A public apology is all we ask.

Post 60
Old May 15, 2010, 05:09 PM
EDIT
Quote
I would suggest that you retract the insinuations about paedophilia from your posts, Graham, and the discussion can then continue as before. It's ridiculous for Shambhala to be connected to any kind of child porn or abuse, and it would be as well to simply remove all references to it here to ensure that no one misunderstands.

The inference want there nor did I accuse the site of advocating it either.



If anyone looks at my Original thread they will see

1. I never accused anyone of anything, any misdeed or wrong doing at any time.
2. I mentioned no site name
3. There was never any accusation of anyone advocating child pornography at any time.

however I found it strange that many members of Shambhalla descend upon the thread almost immediately and set about to accuse me that they were advocating child pornography which I never did in the first place, however in a private conversation with EDIT I agreed that if anyone thought meant Shamballa were advocating it then I apologize, however that wasn't the point, they were using the title Child Rape in one of their threads, I did not lie about that and was in fact 100% correct as events turned out, I never offered any explanation as to what contain nor did I say what the rest of the title was either I merely stated that Child Rape was used in the title which I find quite abhorrent to say the least, apparently it leads to a title of the same name on TWC, besides the point. Almost immediately after posting the thread I was accused of being a liar when I fact I did not lie at all, the fact is I find it disgusting to use a title like that to sensationalize and get members on that site to investigate such a dreadful thread name'


There is nothing which I have stated in my first OP, my or the Apology - thread that is not true. My claim that a thread which was named "Child Rape" was on the Shambhala forum was later backed up by EDIT himself, the main Shambhala Administrator. , that such thread did in fact exist on the Shambhala's own forum.

Formal apologies between me and Brigadier Graham.
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=358181

Post 15
Old May 16, 2010, 10:49 PM
EDIT
Quote
I don't accept your apology Brig.

However he maintained that there was no thread on his site with the words Child Rape in the title, until some 24 hrs later (approx) when in private conversation on MSN when he said, "I thought you said you had no evidence? to which I replied words to the effect, "perhaps I am ** lying through my back teeth like you are mate"
Low and behold he then admitted there was a thread with Child Rape in the title and admitted it in the apology thread, the words Child rape are the pronounced words in the Title and this is what I meant using Child Rape as the main title.

Post 31
May 17, 2010, 06:21 AM
EDIT
Quote
There is a thread on Shambhala, in the TWC den

Post 73
Yesterday, 10:40 AM
EDIT
We don't organize or endorse any trolling on TWC, but then again we don't stop it either.

Quote from EDIT in response to a post by EDIT

Post 66
Yesterday, 06:19 AM
EDIT

Hex is aware of multiple occasions on which a member of Shambhalla posted there encouraging people to break the rules here. At least one such occasion was quite recent. As far as I know, nothing much has come of it, so we have no reason to pursue the matter, but it's inaccurate to claim that no Shambhala member ever uses it to encourage ToS violations on TWC. (It would be nice if that were the case, though.)

Post 73
Old Yesterday, 10:40 AM
EDIT
- Right, and you found out because people reported it. Which is stated in the TWC Den forum in one of the stickies - post what you want, but you'll most likely be reported. We don't organize or endorse any trolling on TWC, but then again we don't stop it either. Now if someone told me that they were hacking an account or trying to do something like that or anything illegal, I'd let things known through the proper channels.

EDIT
What EDIT said is right, they can post those things, and we don't like to brush up against you guys (because we don't want pressure put on any people on Shamb who happen to be staff) but we can't really stop it unless we start going back on our original intentions as a free-speech spinoff.

Which is tantamount to an admission that as site admin., he is aware that it goes on but stands by, passive approval? His justification for this is simply that it violates shamb principals but seems not to care for the TWC sites rules, or its members or the fact that his site members are organizing off site and disrupting this site

This is the mere tip of the iceberg. I also stated that several members are targeted on shambhala, degradingly, insulting and openly for other Shambhala members to mob around. Whether this is explicitly or not, it bears the nature that it's designed to disrupt the flow of conversation of any TWC members. This may also go within the bounds of harassment. The following members and events which have evidently been targeted, such examples as:

· "EDIT is a little " - the thread title by EDIT.

· "Troll EDIT With Me" - the thread title & " *Link* / The potential is strong with this one." - OP posted by EDIT which contradict his statement about encouraging trolling on TWCenter.

· "I found a new troll" - by thread poster EDIT.

· "EDIT, This is becoming a trend" - the thread title by Civiate EDIT and openly admitting trolling another member of TWCenter.

· "EDIT" - the thread title by Civiate EDIT openly admitting to flame a member of TWCenter.

· "Child Rape" - thread by EDIT. The infamous thread.

· "EDIT/ gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay" - thread by Civiate EDIT.

· "EDIT" - thread by EDIT.

· "EDIT / Someone finally got tiered of him" - thread title by Civiate EDIT.

· "EDIT - TWC's Newest Dumbass" - EDIT.

· "what an idiot" - Civiate EDIT.

· And many similar threads by TWC's own users.

In our current state - some members whom are "Moderator", "Magistrate", "Content Writer" and "Citizen" actively use this forum, This will be known to few or many after all evidence is handled properly and structural changes are put in motion or if not, common members will just have to see all the evidence for themselves.

I haven’t accused anyone on the original thread I raised issues that I saw needed addressing but it seems those members who post were perhaps too. Since this message is requested by CdeC and may hold interesting points related to several admins statements -- This message will therefore be sent to both parties.

I should also like a formal public written apology for the incorrect accusation from members involved in these threads, as I was correct in my bringing this to the attention of our TWC member as any "real" Citizen should do if they really wanted to improve what is after all a gaming site that I for one do not wish to see ruined by a minority that would seek to disturb hard working, productive members and I have no intention of leaving TWC because of members like these'
With all of this overwhelming evidence I should think The Hexagonal Council will veto this CDeC inquiry at the very least!

Attachment’s

Warning
Some of the following images contain strong language and offend which may offend some viewers of TWC. Viewer discretion is advised:

Pictures

EDIT

Messages from a few Members!

I wish you well with the CDEC Brig, personally I think that it is outrageous that you are allowed to be accused and pulled up before them anonymously, this kind of thing usually only happens in the most repressionist of regimes. You named no names but simply raised a question or two, and if I were you, I would also insist that any members on the CDEC with associations with Shambles will recluse themselves in this issue. 1. You didn't name any members. 2. You didn't break any rules, at least as my amateur eyes read them. 3. You will have a forum to "defend" yourself, where you can state almost anything you want now, because it is in your own defense...you can even say things you would get canned for in the main forums, because they "explain" your behaviour. Hell, you might even be able to name names! 4. Your intentions are clean - the betterment and defense of the TWC site...even those who dont like your tactics can't deny this. 5. Truth is the best defense against accusations of slander. I dunno...isn't this kindof a good thing? Thanks Brig, and everybody else it would seem that some direct action to relevant senior site administrators has brought this tirade to their attention and they seem to have acted against the key players, so lets hope that's an end to it all and we can all move forward well having now read through the various exchanges including EDIT's confirming the thread was/is on their site I am not sure what other than a vindictive, spiteful vendetta on what grounds they intend to ban you, one thing is clear that there are to many from that site involved and that how can they possibly remain objective. I am also somewhat surprised at the nature of some of the posts and despite clear warning on the threads from moderators what they did post, and continue to post without it would seem any action, smacks of Animal Farm, all animals are equal, but some are more equal than others. Finally and what I consider and important point coming from one of the main protagonists posts re. the law, many of the discussions contain what can only be considered adult content, unless I am mistaken many of the Shamsters pertain to be under the age to be able to engage in a number of activities that we adults can do, so I am unclear how they are legally allowed to access such material, let alone engage in conversations on the subject, and how in gods name are they supposed to actually comment on it and for us to take them seriously is beyond me, I think the site owners need to review some of their TOS's to ensure that they are above reproach, as opposed to at the moment seemingly giving tacit/passive approval which is no defense think what is going on at present is unacceptable and have made my thoughts clear to various senior site members, I have also conveyed that all the duffers are being restrained at present but we will not tolerate this ongoing injustice forever, something not only needs to be done it needs to be seen to be done. The Brig himself has offered the hand of peace and I would urge any and all of our society to remain calm in the face of provocation and harassment of one, or more of members and hope that that the site administrators intervene and put an end to this charade, and quickly. Well, a magistrate can express an opinion that you should be banned...his opinion and $2.25 will get him a double-Chi-tea latte from Starbucks. You may be a ready-fire-aim kind of bloke Brig, but at least you stand up for your principles! As you say that they are insignificant but it is clear that they seem to view the Duffers, or some Duffers as targets for abuse/attack seems clear, does that bother me - not in the least, will I respond, without doubt to support individuals or the group, or anybody else I see targeted unfairly on this site, that it seems that many of people baited/targeted seem so by members of the shambkebabs may be coincidence, though I doubt it. It seems clear that members of that site clearly band together and "target" individuals or threads, the crown, the video AAR are both good examples. Clearly there is something going on as said the guy who admins., the site but freely admits to not frequenting TWC regularly miraculously appears in a thread where they were not mentioned except by themselves, guilty conscience perhaps, why do they take such exception to posts that did not mention to them. As to the nature of EDIT's posts I made my position clear in the thread as a senior member of the site he clearly violated TOC and should no better, what seems even more strange is that the thread it self was being crawled over by moderators but none seem to have infracted him, where as certain duffers have been infracted for for less recently, I wonder why? I also made my position clear to EDIT in the string of PM's he then sent me in that I will continue to post where I want and when I want and if I happen to clash with his members the I will do so within the TOC's. I will not target as his members do but will not sit back and let them run riot and that so far when challenged his members have either disappeared, or got angry and then disappeared as most cowards do when confronted. I also note that unlike the shambkebabsters none of us duffers have reported EDIT for his outrageous statements preferring instead that the Moderators apply the same principals of justice that they so regularly spout, I will not hold my breath waiting for them to act, lets hope they show the same restraint towards our members

Yours Sincerely
Brigadier Graham

[Leonidas The Lion]

this is gonna be a biggie, i'll get to it tomorrow.

[Belisarius]

Sim has provided some information and I am pleased he is also investigating.

Here is what I have found –

This is a case where we are truly suffering from allowing organizations such as the duffers and so on basing themselves on TWC. This feud has developed because members of the two sides have on occasion mocked each other and excluded people from a forum which has a section devoted to members of TWC. Anagennese also has one thread called “ferrets vault of flames” in which similar posts occur, the difference being, the administration of Anagennese actively discourage TWC discussion and do not have a section dedicated to flaming of members. Another point is that Anagennese is smart enough to hide its thread to members only.

The fact remains that we cannot discipline members who act as the members of shamba and Anagennese do, as it is not within our powers. There is a difference between the harmless fun of, say the Crandar account, and targeting members of TWC. The interesting point though is that the problems which people clearly vent off site stem from TWC business. Graham may claim that he is being targeted by members and it may be so that the deceased Sword of Cao Cao (I think) did organize troll attacks against TWC. Graham has clearly been riled by something. From what I gather his problems with EDIT started because he suspected EDIT of ignoring him on his profile and someone spread a rumor that he went behind his back on some issues, he was a mod at the time. Graham responded with the following, which is now hidden in Shambawamba (I will misspell this many times)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

EDIT

I beg to differ there bucko, to assume you have a modicum of "wit" assumes you have attained it!
But from the looks of things I see that you have only ever attained "half" of it it seems!

However if you maintain that you do have a modicum of "wit" let me say adding "" before "wit" would be more appropriate!

You may lick the dirt from in between my toes now!
Pwned? certainly not me!

To be fair and ethical I PM'd him these issues and Submit his explanation -

Ah yes you may show it if you wish sir, well it was from the "book of Brig" a comedy thread that I posted on Shamb months and months ago I already mentioned in my OP and the apology threads that I used "expletives" and cuss words over there, I have nothing to hide, I never use them on TWC but at that time it was a necessary tool in order to calculate just what type of member frequents Shamb you see?

When it was apparent that those members did not care much for me, actually it was calculated to garner who was against me and who could take a joke and who couldn't since it was clear they liked to dish it out to the TWC community, but were unwilling to take it, this is well known that bully's that flock together are like when confronted the do not like it when the shoe is on the other foot.

It soon became apparent that they couldn't accept humour aimed at them, and actually I was very careful not to name names either, however if you wish to go public with that(the Book of Brig joke, please feel free sir.however I do wish they had shown the other one I made as well, they were quite furious over that!well mainly EDIT really as EDIT, does sound similar indeed? and the other one I posted if I remember correctly invloves the words... pwnage(I never knew what this meant until joining Shamb) and "reminiscent of a sperm whales blow hole"

They removed my thread to their "worst of the worst" thread, however I think that was merely because they were not happy that my thread was getting the most hits at the time and removing it was merely the cowards way when they were confronted with something that turned the tables on them.

However that was about 8 or 9 months ago I haven't posted since then I think.And indeed this isn't about what I did on Shamb either which was hardly a major concern in my opinion. but I am ore than happy to give my account of those events even though they are somewhat unrelated to current events.

Well as I said I was invited to join and was surprised when they let me, however I knew all along it was in order to mock me, as they mock other members on TWC

This is a tactical bully's use when they are confronted, shamb member using bully boy tactics to try and make a member roll over, I'm afraid it never worked with me, and it give me the insight to the mindset of these cowards on Shamb.

The "book of Brig" was merely a joke,(if you look at EDIT signature on Shamb you will see a reference to 2 maids and Jack Daniels, this is a reference to a comment I made explaining that in Indonesia where I live,e employ 2 maid to do the our house work etc indeed this is where I had the idea about the book of Brig humour,which I have to add had the most hits ever on shamb in such a short space of time)

However when the tables were turned they didn't much care for it and they constantly deleted my threads and gave me warnings etc and they didn't like it even though the names are merely "similar" to those member I posted, however one must be very wary of any material they have posted about me, as it can be doctored by the admin over at Shamb and as events have clearly shown they are hardly "trustworthy" sources and as you can see, those members including EDIT have lied from the very start of the thread I opened.

If my book of Brig gibe is the best they can come up with then they must be very desperate indeed to think something like that could somehow incriminate me, as that Book of Brig material was very successful in soliciting s response from those members a point they dont seem to be aware and are obviously oblivious to my intent., I cant be punished about the book of Brig of course but if you want to post a sanitized version for public opinion when my case is finished then I would be more than happy you that you did.
However I am defending the main point about the thread I posted in the Q&A, which did not accuse anyone of anything as no site was mentioned and no names either.

The guilty minds of those members who frequent Shamb have done the damage to themselves, they accused me of being a liar, and made out that I accused them of advocating child porn and as can clearly be seen I never at any time prior or subsequently accused any member of that! remember they think of themselves as adults I offered some adult humour in the same vein as they conduct themselves on Shamb.

I would also be very wary of any dates or content in my posts that they have offered as well.

So I am a little concerned that this would be turned around in their favour, I have seen nothing yet that I could be punished for here really, the onus lies squarely with those members involved in disrupting TWC, I have proven that without a shadow of a doubt now.

But I am sorry that it had to come to this, but in my opinion something needed to be done about a situation on TWC that many members are aware of, but cant or wont do anything about it. I feel I had no other recourse but to do this and in recent months I have been acting alone.
I maintain I did the right thing for the benefit of the TWC community and would hope I am "vindicated" in this case on all counts.
My thanks to the CdeC council.
Kind regards
Brigadier Graham

What is clear by these posts is that WHATEVER bad activity occurred on Shamb, Graham was a part of it until this -

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

EDIT

He started a thread, flaming EDIT and edited the post soon after accusing him of blocking him becoming a moderator or some- such nonsense. He openly states that he can go to shamb and say what he wants, he openly uses expletives and as he says, thats fine by him. He has issues with most TWC staff who he thinks are in cahoots with Shamb. Note the ratbag quote above and now this -

Yo Brig dawg wassup! Me slanty eye from japan!

Nu a lu brah and all that?

Word.

Pilgrims in an unholy land, eh mate?

Main man, missionary on a mission eh?

Yup. Now where's da stash? I've seen these muthas make fools out of themselves all over the ing place, from EDIT to EDIT the big wigs eh?

Yup loads of them here brah and you wunt beleev the shizz

Well it's pretty ing late here so I'm off to sleep mate. Still, it's been revealing. See ya the morra mate.

Another with EDIT

Areet marra, how's tha fettle?

Let's get my character set up. We need something funny to take the mick out of these fools. Who do we say I am?

Arc Angel Rab C, who sits at the right hand og Brig?

Yep, the Pisshead Prophet himself. TWC doon for you an aa?

Then they ban him for whatever reason.

Then this -

Members who belong to other site that organize Trolling of Flaming attacks on TWC.

I just wanted to raise some concerns, if certain members of TWC belong to certain other satellite sites,that undoubtedly organize trolling and flaming attacks on TWC, and seem only to want to disturb other members baiting them, even dare I say it harassing them?It must be mentioned I joined myself for reasons I need not explain, but suffice to say, I found out what I needed to know then I haven't posted since!

This is untrue, he was banned ... I think.

But please believe me when I say those member who do belong to this site we know about are not the same pontificating holier than thou members you see here, porn anti-gay sentiment, with subjects like lets troll******** or subjects and thread titles such as "child rape" oh yes just your usual teen orientated site, one of the members is 15 yrs old. And a lot are still attending schools. Does anyone wish to be associated with this kind of activity?

Trolling and flaming we now know he was involved in, whatever his motivation.

Should they be allowed to become Citizens, or indeed be allowed to hold positions on TWC such as Moderators,or members of the CdeC I mean it seems illogical to me? and a tad hypocritical since I see some of these members apparently badgering other members, and they do seem to spend an inordinate amount of time putting the vim and vigour across over at the tribunal threads, they do seem to have an unhealthy interest,in other members welfare on TWC? just wondering if this is a sort of small group teen neurosis going on?It does seem that younger members of this group who wish to impress their peers are actively trolling other members of TWC,perhaps some of the younger "Impressionable" members could be
Ever wary of the rules of the Tos I cant mention specific names, but if you happen to notice the posting habits of these fellows, And its always the same blighters.

The question is should they be allowed to hold position and rank on TWC? How does one settle ones conscience knowing that they participate in sites like this?

Should he, having flamed EDIT , EDIT and man others off site?

Then pontificating at tribunals and such as if they are "paragons of virtue," imbibing and imbuing us with their "pearls of wisdom"
I wouldn't say that these certain members were even worthy of citizenship if you ask me, but that is only my personal opinion.

EDIT , who he flamed. He opened a thread (pic) flaming him on TWC. did apologize in the thread, sort of.

But those members who belong to such a site, moderators, CdeC members, Citizens, who does it sit with their conscience, when they know trolling, flaming, and harassment is going on of members this site dont much care for?
I expect this thread will be deleted, as it would seem these members are mollycoddled here

I mean what was the point of this? He did it too, we all agree that the activities on Shambawamba and Anagennese are sometimes wrong, but why make accusations when he himself did it when he was active there.

On the accusation of Child porn, the thread is visible in the main index of some sub-forum. Brig saw it, obviously entered and immediately would have realized it was harmless, so why cause this commotion.


What is clear is that this forum rivalry has gotten out of hand and im afraid Brig was the one who brought it to TWC. He posted things on TWC and did infact slander members. Some members of TWC are guilty of flaming on anagennese and TWC, I have evidence of this, but so is Brig. The difference is he took part in the flaming and knew the child porn thread was not porn. I dont buy the "thats not what he meant", why else post that a thread is called that and not reveal its content?

I agree with most of what Sim said, but Brig acted on TWC.

Further action. Not severe, but further.

After that, we launch an investigation in off site conduct and see where we can go from there.

[Søren]

On the accusation of Child porn, the thread is visible in the main index of some sub-forum. Brig saw it, obviously entered and immediately would have realized it was harmless, so why cause this commotion.

I'm pretty sure he said somewhere that he hadn't read the contents of the thread. Which is plausible, if he thought it was about child rape. Essentially all he's done is made some poorly-researched insinuations. I don't think that warrants a censure, regardless of our general opinions of him.

[Belisarius]

The description before entering the thread shows its a discussion about a thread in TWC, he def saw that and since we dont allow child rape it was blatantly obvious what the thread was. That in itself isnt why i think he should be censured, its the participating in flames and then accusing them that bothers me.

[Augustus Lucifer]

I think this case has a lot of aspects to it which are somewhat ambiguous in terms of where they fall in respect to the Citizen standard, and there's a lot to interpret. I think there's a few things to consider here:

1) The public posting of a thread disparaging members, implicitly or explicitly.
2) The insinuations made or allowed to persist and the residual impact of those insinuations.
3) The continuation of the discussion and the resulting interchanges both in said thread and in other threads.
4) The general atmosphere encouraged by the contention between these two groups of forum members as a matter on TWC.

Regarding Point 1

As I stated in the magickyleo case which can be seen here, posting a public thread about the conduct of other members is not an action that should be taken by Citizens outside of the sole channel for this, the VonC. By not decrying this action we allow for it to take place, which is something we should not be doing. There are proper channels that Citizens should pursue to report conduct of other members, and they are:

1) Reporting of posts. In the case of individual posts on TWC, a member may report the post to bring attention to moderators.
2) Citizen Referral. Where a member is a Citizen and their conduct on the site is unbecoming of a Citizen, a Citizen can pursue a referral of them and list evidence supporting the reasoning.
3) Vote of No Confidence. Where a member of staff or holding a Curial office has displayed conduct not befit their position(s), a formal VonC may be initiated with strong and well sourced supporting evidence.
4) PM to Hex/Moderation. Where the above channels are not sufficient, a PM to Hex to investigate is the proper course of inquiry into the behavior of a member, be they staff, citizen, or otherwise. Hex may then use the information provided in whichever way they see fit.

Those channels are ample and do more to solve an issue than a public inquiry can ever do. Creating a sensationalist atmosphere and trying to turn public opinion is not the proper course of action. In magickyleo's case I opted to vote for a Censure because the thread he made was uncalled for and should not have been made by a Citizen; the same is true here. While the referred did not name names, the users being implicated could be ascertained easily enough and perhaps even more broadly than intended, so I'd liken it to "a certain Senior Senator from Kentucky, I won't say who" or my use of 'the referred' earlier in this sentence. There are a couple of things which exacerbate it in this case, and those are covered in the next points.

Regarding Point 2

While it is correct that there was no explicit mention of condoning Child Rape, it is abundantly clear from the phrasing and the response that while only the thread title was mentioned, this was not what was received. He has displayed through his second post that he can get information if he wants to, so he was amply able to qualify the statement with the fact that it was actually a thread decrying child rape, though in that case one must wonder why it's relevant to mention at all. He did not do so, so while he apologizes in his defense for the confused interpretation of his assertions, I find it especially hard to believe that the mention of such a thing would be pursued without knowledge of what will be extrapolated from it lacking evidence to the contrary. Ergo I don't find the reference benign.

I think Toon's post in the thread sums up the interpreted accusations:

If there are TWC members who are involved in activities up and above what they are representing on TWC and if they are allegedly involved in "child rape" activities etc..even if it only be in discussion on another site! this deserves an instant ban on TWC!! this world is full of "Sickos" and this type of activity would not be tolerated by the Police in any country so this type of activity MUST not be tolerated and any appropiate action must be taken!!!
I understand that there are a lot of younger members within TWC and that I do not have a problem with, and if they are conducting themselves in a professional manner within TWC thats fine, but activity on "Shambahalla" and other related sites is not good at all and I personally find disgusting as most level headed TWC members would agree.

Whether or not that was the intent of the OP to suggest, Citizens cannot carelessly use vague language that can be interpreted in such a way as to be seriously detrimental to the perception of a member of TWC. Compared to basically any insult that can be directly leveled against a member and infracted, the notion that someone is empathetic to child rapists, or participates in child rape, is a very, very serious matter which could even result in legal investigations. I'm still not entirely certain that all members have been disavowed of this perception as yet, so the residual impact is unclear.

It should be noted that he acknowledged fault and clarified his statement here after talking to EDIT. This is good, though it doesn't entirely excuse the original vague assertion.

Regarding Point 3

This line of discussion was not limited to the thread mentioned. It also bled over into the Prothalmos, as can be seen here and here, where the discussion was scantly relevant to the topic of the thread. The discussion was also somewhat carried on in the apologies thread with less of a charge. Judging by the responses PMed that are mentioned in the defense, I gather it didn't discontinue through PMs or in the social group associated with the 'Most Ancient, Puissant, and Honorable Society of Silly Old Duffers'.

Regarding Point 4

I don't think it's any secret there's contention between the two groups at odds during this interchange. In my mind neither has the moral high ground, but in this particular case the conflict would not have materialized had it not been initiated by the post referenced in the referral. This ties in to Point 1 about proper channels to pursue action, and also can reverberate into the existential cliques, which doesn't create a forum atmosphere conducive to civil discussion. This cannot be solely attributed to the referred user and should not be, but it is a byproduct of the interchanges initiated by the referred user that the contention has heightened.

------------------------------------------------------------

It saddens me to see fighting play out on the landscape of TWC due to a difference in ideologies. As I said before, neither side can be afforded a moral high ground, as individual members of both have initiated points of contention, such as with the recent mocking portrayal of crowns in names. In this particular instance the initiator can be identified, perhaps with a degree of provocation, but the important thing overall is diffusing the conflict wherever it shows up on TWC and whoever 'started it'.

As with the previously referenced Citizen Referral, I think this is a case where a Censure would be warranted to make clear that this course of implication is not approved by the CdeC for Citizens to take. Graham doesn't have a history with the CdeC, which lends to this. There is however one concern that is in stark opposition to the other case, and that is the response and acknowledgement by the user. While magickyleo freely admitted he should not have made the thread, Graham has maintained throughout that he was in the right and has seemingly admitted little fault.

It's possible this is just because he hasn't considered what has been considered above, I can't quite say. What does really concern me though is when I see things like this(from his defense):

This will be known to few or many after all evidence is handled properly and structural changes are put in motion or if not, common members will just have to see all the evidence for themselves.

To me, this is blatant blackmail. Either we see things his way or information from outside TWC which may or may not relate to a member's involvement in TWC will be published in such a way as to start a lynch mob? This is the freaking internet, and this is a private site. Hex decides if action needs to be taken and in this case they have done so benevolently. It is not the place of members to be involved in this by way of a public referendum and subsequent crucifixion.

Regardless of what action we take here, we need to make it abundantly clear to him that posting about other members publicly in such a way will not be tolerated and should not be pursued. It was properly handled in the recent case where a moderator's sentiments from the Den were leaked and decried; a similar hard line against taking statements out of context and discussing questionably relative conduct -- which is also incidentally covered by a non-disclosure agreement -- should be acted upon here.

[Leonidas The Lion]

To me, this is blatant blackmail. Either we see things his way or information from outside TWC which may or may not relate to a member's involvement in TWC will be published in such a way as to start a lynch mob? This is the freaking internet, and this is a private site. Hex decides if action needs to be taken and in this case they have done so benevolently. It is not the place of members to be involved in this by way of a public referendum and subsequent crucifixion.

Regardless of what action we take here, we need to make it abundantly clear to him that posting about other members publicly in such a way will not be tolerated and should not be pursued. It was properly handled in the recent case where a moderator's sentiments from the Den were leaked and decried; a similar hard line against taking statements out of context and discussing questionably relative conduct -- which is also incidentally covered by a non-disclosure agreement -- should be acted upon here.

This is what has me worried, he's openly threatening us and we are only considering a censure. I'm more inclined to consider suspension of rank.

BTW on a side note, I don't know how many of you noticed but he posted his accusations in multiple threads one of those in one of the CdeC debate threads. I can't understand for what reason other than for his own benefit.

So further action from me definitely, as to the severity we'll have to discuss that.

[Belisarius]

Bloody hell AL, its 5am here. *runs away*

[Augustus Lucifer]

To simplify the above, I think the CdeC needs to address two things in this case:

1) Make it clear that threads of this nature are not the way in which a Citizen should pursue an inquiry into other member's behavior, by way of a Censure.
2) Make it clear that we will not condone further 'public outing' as a means to whatever end is sought, especially where the information presented violates a non-disclosure agreement.

That's basically all we need to say here. I take no issue with Graham and I don't think he's trying to be malicious with any of this as he feels he has the best interests of the site in mind. A Censure is just us clarifying where the 'Citizen standard' lies and that Citizens are expected to pursue the appropriate channels for matters such as this, nothing more, nothing less.

I'm well aware that the mainstream media and culture in general loves to hear about things like Watergate and sees it as a form of accountability. But I would liken a public inquiry here more to people discussing Tiger Woods' relationship where they have no business than the misgivings of a public official. The means in which staff are appointed and dismissed is not a public affair, and while Curial officials are elected, there is a procedure for dismissing them formally(the VonC), and their misgivings can be brought up in a debate thread prior to elections if they're relevant. These misgivings should of course be based on TWC, since just as someone is different around their friends, their wife, and their boss, a member of TWC is allowed to act differently outside TWC without being accosted if it doesn't bleed over onto TWC(in which case its TWC aspect is a matter in its own right).

[Hesus de bodemloze]

The problem with brig is he likes to accuse members of stuff a bit to gladly. It isn't the first time he started such charades.

[Legio]

AL has made a brilliant post. I haven't read it, but it looks brilliant.

[Belisarius]

I wouldnt go for suspension personally because many people were involved and we have to take into account that the majority of it occurred off site.

[Leonidas The Lion]

I wouldn't go for suspension personally because many people were involved and we have to take into account that the majority of it occurred off site.

Yes, but rather than solving it off-site he dragged in into TWC, something that I find quite worrying.
What happens on Shamb should stay on Shamb not be brought here to TWC.

[Belisarius]

True, but there is a precedent for his actions, with internel Staff and off site matters having spilled out many times in TWC's history. So we cant punish that, the issue is that he participated in the actions, knew others werent true. IMO.

[Leonidas The Lion]

True, but there is a precedent for his actions, with internel Staff and off site matters having spilled out many times in TWC's history. So we cant punish that, the issue is that he participated in the actions, knew others werent true. IMO.

Fair enough.

[Empress Meg]

Poll is added gents.

He did not technically break the ToS. Yet, I do believe his conduct is unbecoming of a citizen. Singling folks out in public is not the appropriate means of attracting attention to this issue, but he did not single out one person but several. We then learned that he is able to back up some if not all of his claims, so he is not a liar. However he is known to participate on some of these sites and in my mind that makes him no better or worse then those folks on Shamb, Ana etc. While no staff action should be taken against him, I do think that a censure should be sent at least. One that if it does agree with yall, we all write together to explain how things are done on the TWC in regards to other sites.

Devoirs The Empress

[Hesus de bodemloze]

Voted!

[Legio]

Abstained; as while I was not attacked by him I am a member of Shamb and whatever I say will might be misconstrued as biased.

[Leonidas The Lion]

I think the one thing most of us can agree is that further action is required.



Voted.