Venice, Help!

[tata888]

Hi everybody, I'm new at this forum, but I'm here hope to get help.

Ok, I have been playing Venice for a while, but I'm suck at it though I'm extremely in love with Venice. When play Venice, I often try to be pacifistic in the first stages of the game, try to ally with as much factions as possible(including Catholic, Muslim, and Orthodox), while try to build trade, farming, and other places to train soldiers. Yet I often ended up losing the game because of the attacks from the Holy Roman Empire, or Milan, or Byzantine, or Sicily, or maybe all of them just suddenly attack me at once, sometimes that include Papal State. Then I got bankrupt.

I have tried a lot, I have tried changing Irklon into a castle, or capture Bologna at the first turn... but they turn out failed. Are there any experts on Venice that can be able to help me? Thanks

[Valandur]

Venice is probably one of the most difficult factions in the game regarding its position and its world reputation. Take Durrazzo and you can pretty much eliminate any threat from Byzantium, and then take Zagreb so you can properly estabilish yourself inland.

If HRE attacks you, immediately capture Bologna from them and you won't really have to worry about them anymore. If Milan attacks you, blitz them. In pre-war situations, don't build up excess troops you can't support and you won't got bankrupt.

[tata888]

Thanks Valandur, but just out of curiosity, won't Byzantine attack you even after you capture Durazzo? I have seen it, they seem pretty determined to take Durazzo. Furthermore, it seem like the Byzantine also want Irklon, how to you defend it against them?

Milan is packed with a set of super army, kind of like a Swat team, so what if they try to fight you by that army? How are you gonna fight back? Thanks.

[Valandur]

Thanks Valandur, but just out of curiosity, won't Byzantine attack you even after you capture Durazzo? I have seen it, they seem pretty determined to take Durazzo. Furthermore, it seem like the Byzantine also want Irklon, how to you defend it against them?

Milan is packed with a set of super army, kind of like a Swat team, so what if they try to fight you by that army? How are you gonna fight back? Thanks.

Well, Byzantine will still attack but they have a further away staging point. If you take Durazzo, they will have to rally at Thessolonica or Corinth, and then they'll have to cross the mountains. Keep a few units in the mountains and Byzantine will never make it to your cities. With Iraklion, Venice starts off with a decent navy, thats all you need to defend Iraklion. If your feeling lucky, from Iraklion, you can take Rhodes which is a castle.

With Milan, yes, they do have decent units but they have a few disadvantages.
1. They don't have any castles at the start, they're stuck using their militia.
2. Venice (the city) is located on an island, making it so easy to defend.
3. Milan can't attack you without possibly provoking the HRE and vice versa.

And, remember, they only start with two cities. Taking one halves their income, production and military production.

[Paladin94610]

I am a beginner of M2 TW and I have played English campaign on E/E difficulty and had reached the year of 1290s.. and had captured the whole France except Marseille and western Germany and I started to get boring and try Venice just 2 days ago. on M/E (Campaign/ Battle)... Ah.. it is very hard for me.... and not being confident with the campaign, I tried thrice...
The first time.... ah... Venice was captured by Milan...
The second time.... my countcillor was killed...
The Third time.... I was bankrupt...

Then I started to think of why it is very hard.... I found a number of reasons....
1) It have no core settlement... For example England has a core settlement London as Nottingham is adjacent to York and Caen is adjacent to France.
2) Its territories are spread out not like a cube or a circle but a string.. yes, string... imagine the string to be Venice, Zegreb, Regusa, Durazzo and Iraclion...
3) It is adjacent to many countries seeking for riches.....thus much more possibilities to war
4) Milan thinks you as rival and HRE Emperor as a deer and Byzantines as the one who will backstab them and Sicily worry of invasion.. Your only ally will be central Europeans Hungary and Poland...

Advices...
-Venice is a city-state that relies extremely from trade... Rebels standing on the roads to ports and pirates blockading your ports can make you bankrupt.. And instead of building farms on the early turns build merchant warf and ports and of course paved roads and focus building them in Venice... Raise the tax rate to at most High Rate and at least Normal unless your public order is not potential for riots... I think we cannot avoid disillusioned... if avoid you just bankrupt...

-Never try to expand until you have strong defensive situations

-Venice lacks of strong early units... but very good late units.... until Late Middle Ages, don't attack Byzantines....

-Venice itself is on an island and the only way is to pass the canals across a bridge, an extremely useful choke point... never wait for enemy to attack and try sally forth and boast for your defensive position. Wait on the bridge to come for you.. It is very much better than salling forth... On a battle, my councillor was on the one side of the bridge and my 3 pavise X Militia and 2 Italian Spear are on the other side. The enemy try to cross the bridge, but AI became mad and can't decide where to attack and they just walk back and forth across the bridge while my Xbows unleash volleys of iron bolts into the mass... It was a very clear vic.. I lost no men and they lost all..

-Try to take Durazzo and and change Regusa a city. It is the only city that can be your core settlement (the settlement that is not adjacent to foreign territories.

- Never convert Iraklion a castle. You have Rhodes.... Ally with Turks and they will be a great aid in defeating Eastern Romans.

- Don't take crusades on these early turns because they will surely and undoubtedly fail....and let your rivals exhaust... and if the crusade fails the the pope will not be anger with you... Just give him map info to make him pleased.

- Milan is your rival, HRE looks like to expand and they are nervous about Bologna as it is separated from the main HRE territories... and gaining Venice will connect with the main HRE. Byzantines will be waging war with Turks and they think you as an oppotunist trying to backstab them. Poland and Hungary are your trade partners.. On Iraklion you have no trade partner and thus make trade agreements with Turks and Egypt to boost your trade income from Iraklion. If you can't get trade rights with them abandoning Iraklion would be better because it is not worth to hold it as you need to fight off pirates and Byzantine navies every turn and have to repelish soldiers and the cost may be higher than your trade income...

- Never start a war on a faction on early turns.. The second time I played, Bologna was captured by Milan from HRE and I captured it from Milan.. Then HRE attacked me.. I think it is just for Bologna. Expect to wage wars with HRE, Milan and Byzantines.

I have started a new campaign with these new ideas and I have got 1112 AD and still not bankrupt. My treasury is between 7000 florins and 400 florins... Remember you should not be a hare but a tortoise, grow steadily and carefully from external dangers.

Good luck and thank you for reading.

+rep to tata888

[Rakoua]

You've got all of Milan's early units. Just blitz them in the first few turns after taking Zagreb with that general and new militia from Venice. Then get on the Pope's good side and let the HRE get excommunicated. Crusade to Frankfurt. Ask for a city in return for a ceasefire after succesfully doing that.Repeat a few times with various cities.As for Byzantium, blockade the Bosporus and invade with a few full stacks of militia.Worked for me.
Oh, and watch out with trade, if everyone's at war with your income is mostly trade, you'll lose a huge amount of florins per turn.

[John Doe]

I really like venice. An option is to buy bologna from HRE from the first turn instead of declaring war, it's tough on the treasury but you keep your repution. Iraklion is another problem, at first sign of enemy coming to attack, hire the mercenary archers, and try focus on getting the barrack asap, allowing you to train xbow militia. Normally with 4 xbow and 2 italian spear militia, you should defeat anything trying to take it from you. I also like to disband all my navy from the start, it's far to expensive for upkeep. If you take Durazzo, convert it to a castle, then back to a smal town, you'll get a better income that way. Sicily can be dealt with by just taking Naples (they usually go bankrupt), but it's better to take Palermo as well.

[Muagan_ra]

Heh, this sounds familiar. I would recommend placing forts on the passes through the alps, the river crossing just outside Venice, and the river crossings along the Danube near Zagreb, held only by a single peasant cohort. The AI is funny in that often they will not attack the fort, as they seem to be programmed to go directly for the city - regardless of how long a march it will take to get there! You can buy surprising amounts of time by doing this, and screw up the AI.

Venice is my favourite faction, but the AI is not kind to it...

[Silverheart]

First of all, if you try whitout success you should try to start over at an easier difficulty level.
Also, with Venice it is important to obtain trade agreements with as many factions as you can. That way, you won´t go bankrupt when the first wars break out, and you start recruiting large numbers of troops. Don´t forget to focus on economic buildings whenever you can, unless you NEED to build something else.

Build up capable defenses in the key settlements of Zagreb, Iraklion, Durazzo and Venice (the city) to counter the inital attacks of your enemies.
Zagreb holds off the Hungarians, Iraklion and Durazzo are the typical targets of the Byzantines, and both the Milanese and the Germans will attempt to take the city of Venice.
Upgrade the defenses when necessary, and use your other settlements (those which are not directly threatened by anyone) to build up reinforcements and campaign armies to counter-invade the enemies.
Ragusa and Rhodes are good places for this (Rhodes can be easily taken from Iraklion by using your inital fleet to transport a few units of spear militia).
Once your counter-invasion armies start conquering enemy settlements (preferably in northern Italy) the rest should go almost on its´ own. Just don´t forget to maintain your defenses ^::^

[shikaka]

Hi everybody, I'm new at this forum, but I'm here hope to get help.

Ok, I have been playing Venice for a while, but I'm suck at it though I'm extremely in love with Venice. When play Venice, I often try to be pacifistic in the first stages of the game, try to ally with as much factions as possible(including Catholic, Muslim, and Orthodox), while try to build trade, farming, and other places to train soldiers. Yet I often ended up losing the game because of the attacks from the Holy Roman Empire, or Milan, or Byzantine, or Sicily, or maybe all of them just suddenly attack me at once, sometimes that include Papal State. Then I got bankrupt.

I have tried a lot, I have tried changing Irklon into a castle, or capture Bologna at the first turn... but they turn out failed. Are there any experts on Venice that can be able to help me? Thanks

1. 'peaceful' expansion:
- send your diplomat to Bologna, and offer 1000 dinari for 5 or 6 turns for Bologna
- with a family member (and the 4 - or maybe 5?) mercenary crossbows you get to Bologna for free, take Florance
- an option is to take Zagreb and Durazzo with a small force, but they are not really important, especially not as important as Bologna or Florance!
- I think getting Corsica and Sardinia (if still rebel) is more important then Durazzo and Zagreb...


2. military
- note that your spear milita is as good as the other nation's spearmen from forts!
- you have kickass pavese crossbows!
- to make your militia army stay longer, use the italian carroccio (flag wagon unit) which gives morale boost
- keep Ragusa a fortress (you don't really need more), this will supply you with cavalry until you get cavalry in cities

Early game a force of 5 spear militia, 5 crossbows (pavese Xbow), 1 carroccio, 1 general works really well.
- defend the cities with free units (free: has 'militia' in the name and the city can produce it. The number, max.6 depends on city wall upgrades)
- keep a number of cavalry at a point where from they can reinforce most cities in one area in 1 turn (they are good for sally battles, or if you decide to exit at the side gate and get the siege engines of the enemy)


3. alliances
- give 100 gold to the pope each turn, when you are getting along well with him, make an alliance, and keep giving him 100 gold every turn! Also give him (and ask for) military access and maps.

- your arch enemy is Byzantium and Milan and maybe Sicily, look for allies who hate them. Best possibilities are Hungary (against Byzantium and defense against HRE), France (against Milan and HRE). If you choose someone else, be sure that your allies will not share a border with each other, as you will be a traitor when turn on each other. Don't ally HRE AND Hungary at the same time. But you can do so with HRE and Byzantium or France and Hungary. If you have chosen your ally, send a diplomat who will park next to his city and gift him 100 gold every turn.

- it seems that everyone wants Corsica. If you give it to the pope, he will be attacked too, which results in excommunication. If you give Corsica to the pope, you can expect Sicilian/French/Milanese excommunications.


4. expansion
- it is better to attack muslims and othodox (pope doesn't mind)
- good trade revenue comes from Byzantine islands
- attack Byzantium (you can attack the peninsula even on turn 2, with the nearby venetian island garrison)

[Turtle Hammer]

The last Venice campaign I tried was based solely on pure, unadulterated aggression and ignoring the Pope until I controlled him. I attacked Milan and took Milan and Genoa in short order with mercs, then I attacked the HRE and turned Bologna into a castle, then took Florence.

By this point you'll almost deffinitely be ex-communicated so there's no harm in squashing Rome. You will face crusades, but this hammering of Italy sets you up financially to expand into the Balklans, Bologna will grow very fast as a castle, and you can have access to Venitian heavy infantry and Venitian archers quickly, add to this the fact you can defend your cities in North Italy from one stack situated in a centrally located fort, and you've little to fear from your neighbours in Europe. The islands in the Mediterranean are also worth taking, and central North Africa. This gives you good sea trade, and hinders the expansion of anyone else in those territories.

With Milan hammered long ago, your biggest rival will remain the HRE, but you can destroy the stacks they send against you in battles in the Alps. One stack (the one in that fort) should see to all of your Italian defence, and you can retrain it a lot cheaper than they can retrain whole stacks, in theory, this stack should become very experienced in short order. With this in mind, I usually expand into the Balklans and Byzantine territory.

Also, if you keep killing the Pope in battle, you'll reach a point where you pick the Pope, and you'll be in his good books if you behave after that. Crusades eastward will help. I usually declare a crusade on Jerusalem, but ship it to Egypt first, so I can blitz through Alexandria and Gaza on the way to take all the money. If you've enough troops, Alexandria's worth keeping, but if not, just hang on to Gaza. A large fortress in the middle east will be of excellent use in subsequent crusades, and may be necessary as a bolt hole if the Mongols or Timurids become to much of a pain in the backside later in the game.

[bertram boso]

I've found that a good way to deter Byzantine assaults on Crete is unilateral action at sea. Early in the game, I saw a Byzantine fleet coming with four or five units while they were still in the mid-Aegean and ran them off. I recommend building up your fleet's experience (the fleet you're provided with at the beginning of the game, at Iraklion) early on by fighting pirates (there's a multitude of them in that area!) and use them to drive off any Byzantine ships anywhere near Iraklion. Follow this up by going after their ports; if you can bottle up their fleets in the sea of Marmara (i.e. right in front of Constantinople), they're ed.

[KingofPoland]

I usually build up my economy at first and I noticed things that can prevent war for a while (except with the Hre who did nothing more but blockade a port). First, I put the unit of peasant archers that start in Venice on the bridge that gives access to the island and because of that neither Milan, nor the HRE attacked Venice except for the HRE blockading the port once. This one I actually discovered by chance: to prevent war early on with the Byzantines is to quickly capture Durazzo but not develop it. I got this because my settlement had very low growth for some reason so it took a very long time to develop over town. It seems that the Byzantines aren't interested in undeveloped towns. I don't know why, but the AI in my game NEVER attack islands so Iraklion was out of Harm's way. I took over Rhodes and developed it fairly quickly. At this point, I took Milan and Genoa in one fell swoop (they seem to only train Genoese crossbow militia in those cities), I have an attack force going to Florence and I'm maintaining good relations with the popesince Milan is always excommunated. I took over Thesslonica and have Corinth under siege. I developed my navy in Iraklion and kept sending boats to Rhodes and now I invaded the Byzantines in Smyrna, giving me a good defensive position in Turkey. I sent a priest and a spy in every Byzantine region and boats with a half stack in each are heading to lightly garisoned Nicosia, Nicaea and Trebizond which will just leave me Iconium and Caesaria to capture. Constaninople keeps Hungary busy going from rebel to Hungarian quite a lot. I did all that with a treasury of 70000 florins left (I try to keep a safe distance from bankruptcy). I had an alliance with the French but they got annihalated by probably the Milanese. I don't know how strong they are passed the Alps but spies will answer my question soon enough. I have an alliance with the English, the Danes, the Hungarians, the poles and the Turks and have trade rights with everyone but my enemy factions and the Iberian factions. But, compared to other people, Venice has been pretty easy for me.

[Doge Domenico]

As the doge of Venice, let me tell you how I do my Venetian campaigns. Rush Milan in the first few turns. If you don't you will be facing hordes of the most annoying missle unit, Genonese x-bows. DO NOT TRY TO ALLY WITH MILAN. They are backstabbers an can be trusted.I sold iraklion to Germany in return for bologna. Then take Florence. Turn Florence into a castle. Now when you attack sicily you will have good quality troops in range of their settlements. Wait a while, establish an economy, then march on Constantinople. SACK IT, unless you enjoy warring with a large portion of the middle east. With the 30k florins from the sack, raise an army and unify Italy. Yes this means taking Roma. Pay the papal states off right away. With all of Italy under your control, money should be flowing in. When you get to the later periods, you will get the best infantry in the game. Use your Venetian Heavy Infantry and well trained ISM to overpower your German foes if you have to. At this point you have a few choices, take NE, the east or Iberia. If you are taking the north, brig alot of spears, if ou choose the east, bring your stradiots ti counter their horse archers. Iberia will require a balanced army, as they field good archers cav and missile troops. Now take the Middle east and you own the world. REMEBER FLORENCE SHOULD BE A CASTLE. It makes it much easier to get troops to Venice and Milan In the case of a siege. Also, you are a premier naval power, use it. Your galleas in the late period own any northern European, and middle eastern equivalent. Also you are one of the few factions who get muskets, these outclass arqubuses on so many levels. Another tip: Stradiots, when micromanaged can beat heavy cavalry, they are extremely fast and have armor crushing maces so they are effective against all but the heaviest troops. I don't really like the Venetian archers, however they can hold their own in a melée. Good luck and great choice of faction.

[Mega Tortas de Bodemloze]

Maximilian I

Playing any of the Italian factions or HRE is going to immerse one in the mist and intrigues of Italian Politics. I myself play with a M/M setting, nothing but honor and kudos to those that play on the harder settings.

My advise is simple....

1. Bide your time and wait for Milan, HRE, Sicily, and even The papal States to make a mistake.

2. As example; Milan takes Bologna{HRE}. The next turn take your garrison at Venice and Liberate it.

3. If Milan is too powerful from gobbling up French provinces, go ahead and take Milan and or Genoa as well.

4. All the money you need Lies within Italy. Once it's secured you will be tops in production and #1 on everyone;'s hit list.

5. At the beginning I give/sell Crete to the papacy. It's too far away and is a drain on your finances. Allow someone else to build it up and come back to it later.

Overall...Initially stay in Italy and wait/play for the mistake. Then you can play your own game from there... Hope this helps somewhat...

[Drudelo]

I just recently started a campaign as Venice and am doing quite well. All I did was take Zagreb and Florence early on. Having Florence caused Milan and the HRE to attack me. This allowed me to take Bologna, Milan and Genoa without getting on the Pope's bad side. I am allied with Sicily and France so now I will strengthen my defenses in northern Italy against the HRE and build up armies to take Greece from the Byzantines. Having Venice, Bologna, Florence, Milan and Genoa means that I am financially stable and can produce large enough armies to defend myself.

[Mega Tortas de Bodemloze]

I just recently started a campaign as Venice and am doing quite well. All I did was take Zagreb and Florence early on. Having Florence caused Milan and the HRE to attack me. This allowed me to take Bologna, Milan and Genoa without getting on the Pope's bad side. I am allied with Sicily and France so now I will strengthen my defenses in northern Italy against the HRE and build up armies to take Greece from the Byzantines. Having Venice, Bologna, Florence, Milan and Genoa means that I am financially stable and can produce large enough armies to defend myself.

Sicily gonna pound you with a stack at Bologna...you watch... {or you could bait them into it.}

[bertram boso]

Sicily gonna pound you with a stack at Bologna...you watch... {or you could bait them into it.}

you can avoid this by letting the Sicilians take Durazzo instead of getting it yourself. They'll keep most of their armies there and strip the garrisons of Naples and Palermo, their crisis-points. Then, later in the game, sweep down on those two towns and they're pretty much finished. Even if they have Durazzo and Tunis, they're separated by an ocean and Venetian territory, can't coordinate attacks, and are probably broke.

[bertram boso]

I just started a new vanilla campaign as Venice. I swapped Iraklion for Bologna (Iraklion really is a black hole of troops, money, and ships, so give it up and take it back later when the East Romans or someone else has developed it), then blitzed Milan, taking them out by turn 10. This works wonders and I'm now clocking sizeable treasury surpluses despite massive armies in the Alps and stationed along the Danube watching Hungary. The Italian theater is the important one early on for the Venetians!

[MooseUpNorth]

Venice is actually pretty easy to play, if you remember a few things:

* Ally (permanently) with the Pope, France, Denmark, Poland, and Russia. (All possible early.) Ally with Hungary, HRE, Spain, and the Turks but expect these alliances to be fragile and temporary. Trade only with England, Byzantine, Portugal, Egypt, and the Moors.

* Rome likes you better than anybody else. A lot better, so exploit that. Bribe early, bribe often (budget 200 florins tribute per turn) and you'll stay in their good graces no matter what. Gift maps, and military access (they'll cross your borders anyway, might as well get some benefit from it) in the early game. You'll have first pick of crusade targets throughout the game.

* Milan will attack right after they take Dijon and Bern, so attack them while Genoa and Milan are nearly empty of defenders. The opening will happen as sure as the tides. Watch for it. Milan largely falls apart after that.

* France will quite happily ally and sell you Marseilles, Toulouse, and Bordeaux, and doesn't care if you're the one holding Dijon. If you're faithful allies, they'll be faithful allies too. I've never, as Venice, been attacked by France.

* The HRE will happily sell you cities in the Alps, and will often leave you alone if you ally with Poland and Denmark. If you're allied with enough other countries, they'll leave you alone while they're 'playing' with Poland.

* Hungary will attack you in Zagreb if you aren't holding it with a stiffened garrison of at least six units. Doesn't really matter which units, either. Go ahead and ally with them (they'll cancel it sooner or later.) They'll delay the attack even longer if you're allied with Poland and Russia, too.

* Byzantine will attack you in Durazzo, so give Durazzo to the HRE or Sicily. Alternately, let Byzantine strike (and take) Durazzo from you. When they sue for peace (and they will), they'll usually cede it back, plus one other city! I've seen this happen several times.

* Sicily falls apart when you take Naples and Palmero. Feel free to do this while the Pope is trying to cool things off between you and Milan. By the time you're allowed to attack Milan again, you'll be done with Sicily.

* Leave Corsica and Sardinia strictly alone until you've otherwise dealt with Milan, Sicily, and the Moors. Those islands will screw up your alliance web every single time.

* You can shut down the Moors (and permanently stalemate the Iberian Peninsula) simply by blockading the western Med at Gibraltar with a ship or two. Nobody will try to remove you, either.

* When you take Constantinople, be prepared to defend it, because your relationship with all Muslim countries (and most Orthodox ones) will sour instantly.