The Settlers - Enemies of Israel?

[tree151]

Before you post anything about how Israelis or Palestinians should be blamed for everything/thought as victims, please read all of this. I don't want this to be another Israel/Palestine bashing thread.

As an Israeli, I have grown tired of being blamed for every action the settlers in the West Bank make. I have thought it up recently, as to why Israel is in a dead end and is stuck in a situation that I don't think it could get out of.

Now most of you must think that giving up control over the captured territories is as easy as signing a document. I don't think a lot of you know or remember one of Israel's most famous prime ministers, Yitzhak Rabin, who tried to do the same thing 15 years ago. He was shot 3 times while attending at the peace celebrations supporting the Oslo process. By then, he had made peace with Jordan and was about to give away the West Bank and Gaza to Palestinian control, but was stopped by a settler who had rejected Yitzhak's decision.

What I noticed from that point forward, is that in the following elections, all the prime ministers elected were either right-winged or centerists, and we, logically, afraid to try to finish what Yitzhak Rabin started because they feared the same fate. The most radical of all of them is the currect prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu.

Netanyahu is in a tough situation right now. He has the world and the Palestinians pushing him to give the territories, and on the other side his far-right coalition and his fierce settler supporters who are pushing him to do otherwise. Now that even the president of the USA, Barack Obama, is becoming more unfriendly to Israel and Netanyahu every day. I know that in this time, I would not want to run for elections, and I am not jealous of Netanyahu's current situation.

Now let's move a bit away from the prime ministers and focus on Israel as a whole. Right now, more Israelis support a 2-state solution than those who don't. The most recent poll I could find shows that 74% of Palestinians and 78% of Israelis support a 2-state solution. Contrary to the western media, not all Israelis live in East Jerusalem or the territories, a lot of them are hard-working businessmen in Tel-Aviv who's greatest concerns are getting to their job in time in the traffic jams, and probably never went to the West Bank or Gaza in their whole life except probably in military service.

In fact there were a lot of times where the military police was sent to evacuate settlements. Often this was met with violence and it turned out very bloody. And it pains me to see that Israelis fight other Israelis while the world watches and continues to throw blames in all directions without knowing even 5% of what's actually happening here.

I am also not writing this article because I hate the settlers. I am acually fighting against this, because this conflict has risen because when children from each side are born they automatically begin to hate the people on the other side, even though many were already born in Israel and the territories, and the same goes for the settlers. I cannot blame the children that were born in the settlements as much as I cannot blame an Israeli born in Tel Aviv or a Palestinian born in Hebron to be the cause of the conflict.

But my point is, that the real cause of the conflict is not Israel or Palestine being too stubborn or territorial, but what's in between. The image of Israel is ruined by the settlers who represent the average Israeli for the western media, which completely isn't true. and because of that false logic, Israel is forced to fight both the Palestinians and the settlers who are two opposites. I do not view settlers in the West Bank as Israelis since they openly oppose Israel as much as the Palestinians do, which turns them into a third combatant in the conflict.

Please post your thoughts about the settlers and their role in the conflict. Do you think they are with Israel or against it? Do they represent the average Israeli to you?

[Their Law]

It's sad that the extremists on both sides continue to ruin any attempt at mollifying the troubles in the region. I don't think the settlers are against Israel, they are certainly damaging to the countries reputation but i don't think they are actively against Israel. What interests me is that, say a two state solution is found, what stops Israeli citizens simply emigrating to the Palestinian territories and settling there. A two state solution will not stop the settling attempts by the fringe elements of Israeli society or likewise stop the fringe element of Palestinian society from continuing to attack Israeli cities and settlements. Unfortunately there is just too much (irrational) entrenched hatred/borderline religious psychosis on both sides.

[tree151]

It's sad that the extremists on both sides continue to ruin any attempt at mollifying the troubles in the region. I don't think the settlers are against Israel, they are certainly damaging to the countries reputation but i don't think they are actively against Israel. What interests me is that, say a two state solution is found, what stops Israeli citizens simply emigrating to the Palestinian territories and settling there. A two state solution will not stop the settling attempts by the fringe elements of Israeli society or likewise stop the fringe element of Palestinian society from continuing to attack Israeli cities and settlements. Unfortunately there is just too much (irrational) entrenched hatred/borderline religious psychosis on both sides.

There is no stopping the emigration from Israel to Palestine if a 2-state solution is found. But that means that they will no longer be Israeli officially and will be subject to Palestinian law. Though the settler movement strives because it wishes to prevent Israel from giving the territories back, and it will be of no sense if they would emigrate to the territories even after Palestine would be found.

the settlers should be kicked out by force , and if they refuse they should be shot

It's as extreme as kicking out Palestinians by force and shooting them if they refuse.

[garudamon11]

It's as extreme as kicking out Palestinians by force and shooting them if they refuse.

guess what ? thats what happens

[tree151]

guess what ? thats what happens

I want to see a reliable source that states that Palestinians are shot if they are not evicted.

[garudamon11]

I want to see a reliable source that states that Palestinians are shot if they are not evicted.

i dont know how frequent that happens but they are kicked out by force from their homes for no reason

[garudamon11]

the settlers should be kicked out by force , and if they refuse they should be shot

[Their Law]

the settlers should be kicked out by force , and if they refuse they should be shot

I agree on this point, no matter which side you support the simple fact is that what the Israeli settlers are doing is illegal, whilst shooting them might be a bit much (unless they resist violently) Israel should really clamp down on them. But from what i can see these settlers tend to be from the 'Jewish chosen land' mentality and as such are just as bad as the 'crush the evil Jew' mentality in the extremists elements in the Palestinian camp.

There is no stopping the emigration from Israel to Palestine if a 2-state solution is found. But that means that they will no longer be Israeli officially and will be subject to Palestinian law. The settler movement strives because it wishes to prevent Israel from giving the territories back, and it will be of no sense if they would emigrate to the territories even after Palestine would be found.

Indeed but what stopping them emigrating , then declaring themselves as part of Israel, if the majority of the settled region votes yes for it then democratically the Palestinian state would be obliged to cede the territory to Israel.

[memo]

the settlers should be kicked out by force , and if they refuse they should be shot

yes

[hehehe]

*Snip*

So you're saying that the settlers are hurting the peace process and that they do not represent the views of the majority of Israelis? So Israel, too, has some out of control extremists?

[tree151]

So you're saying that the settlers are hurting the peace process and that they do not represent the views of the majority of Israelis? So Israel, too, has some out of control extremists?

I am saying that the settlers are hostile to Israeli policies as much as the Palestinians are. The difference is that Hamas was elected in the Palestinian Territories because they promised the public an end to the Israeli occupation, and in the settler side it is different, the settlers are the ones who prevented any other prime ministers who are more leftist and willing to cooperate with the Palestinians to be elected.

[Amagi]

+1 repped for a good start of yours! Really appreciated!

I agree with you, that the settler´s fanatism is a serious problem for any poltical change in Israel.As Mr. galloway rightfully pointed out in an interview I saw with him, the settlers would rise up in arms against any move by the government to remove them.

During my studies on the subject of Israel, I more than often came across the interesting fact, that people living inside Israel know less of what´s going on than people outside of Israel.

To be honest, I do not see a way for Israel to come to a solution merely by herself- as you alluded in your post, she is eating herself up. I am all for a 2 state solution- a fair one- but if those 2 people really ever could live peacefully side by side, is also a question I would not not be able to answer.

Indeed, Israel´s situation is dire, especially for jews who have a liberal stance on the issue and show ethics like you do. As it seems at the moment, the Israel authority does not share your approach though, as to be seen by the attempts to outlaw Israeli human rights groups, or outlawing of accepting the "nakba" (catastrophy- arab term referring to the founding of Israel and the accompanying ethnic cleansing).

But history shows, the more a nation state needs restrictive meassures to keep her regime afloat, the more this regime is losing power. It is a good sign that Israel sees the need of suppressing such moves, as its proof that there are liberal, ethical movements amongst the Israelis gaining momentum.

To spin back to the settlers, I see it as a large problem, that those people are indoctrinated that much of their own "holyness" and believe themselves, to be rightful owners of that land. The problem with Israel is not simply a political indoctrination as for example the case with communism, but also a deeply rooted religious education of jewish supremacy over non- jews, that supports the settler´s radical stand.

If Israel would ever be willing to educate their population in direction of tolerance and liberalism, it will need to reform the religion aswell. It was not the torah (old testament) that caused the jews so much trouble, it was the talmud all throughout the ages. Israel needs a clerical body, that very critically researches the rightfulness of talmudic texts. I do not want to derange the topic all too much by quoting talmudic phrases, but we need to keep in mind:

The talmud was written by rabbis, and rabbis can as easily rewrite it. Its a collection of rabbinical laws, whose legitimacy needs to be put under very harsh scrutiny.

This I see as the main beacon here tree151, as long as the jewish community so much focusses on talmudic preachings- in large parts contradicting the torah- so long there will be trouble. Not just in israel, but all around the world. Its the talmud that says things like gentiles can be killed, lied at, betrayed,... and the talmud is nothing given by god- it´s laws were written down by rabbis. That is where to look at if you ever want to de-radicalize the jews in Israel.

Simplistically focussing on political solutions, will not work I fear.

An excellent jewish group I would like to adress here, is Neturei Karta. If there was a reform movement by them, I would see hope for the jews, as for the gentiles.

I once adressed to Danzig in a conversation, that I find the zionist movement suppressing and misguiding the jews by means of deceit, lies, violence and misrepresenting oppressions of the past.
They need this fear to keep the group cohesion.

Without fear, that radicalizing, crime legitimizing mindset of zionism collapses, and without the talmud, there is no need for fear.

The jewish group in Israel is held together by: Storys of oppression. Hunted down by the egyptians, the persians, the romans, spanish, the germans,...palestinians and arabs driving the jews into the sea...

The kit of jewish group identity is a history of persecution, outside enemies, ... you are ruled by fear. In the mind of the settlers, this feeling of injustices against their ancestors, combinded with a talmudic induced sense of superiority towards the palestinians, legitimizes the blatant cruelties and injustices they commit.

Check if these persecutions were really that unfounded, or if- talmudically caused, jewish misdeeds really didnt play a role in persecutions at hand of the gentiles...

In case the jews came to the conclusion, that indeed the talmud had negative influence on them and their expressed behaviour in the past, a lot of radical momentum would puff away.
The settlers are a symptom tree101, they are not the rootcause.


I hope I didnt hurt anybody´s feelings too much, but that´s how I see it.

[Orko]

They are more of a burden to Israel than enemies.

[Smeel]

I was going to say that the OP whas very interesting and that you would please keep this on topic, but I guess I was to late....

[tree151]

Amagi, I think you got it wrong a bit. I am not anti-Israel. On the contrary, I am very nationalistic and I wish only the best for my country. I do, however, oppose the power the settlers gain the government and how it pushes the average Israelis into a point where everybody else becomes hostile to them, creating more right wingers that support and some even become settlers. That's why the more the world is hostile to Israel, the more settlers are created. Like I said in the first post, settlers have such a negative impact on Israel that I classify them as a third side in the conflict. But unfortunately shouting at Israel only creates more of them, and that's what pushed the Israelis into becoming more right wing.

[Their Law]

Amagi, I think you got it wrong a bit. I am not anti-Israel. On the contrary, I am very nationalistic and I wish only the best for my country. I do, however, oppose the power the settlers gain the government and how it pushes the average Israelis into a point where everybody else becomes hostile to them, creating more right wingers that support and some even become settlers. That's why the more the world is hostile to Israel, the more settlers are created. Like I said in the first post, settlers have such a negative impact on Israel that I classify them as a third side in the conflict. But unfortunately shouting at Israel only creates more of them, and that's what pushed the Israelis into becoming more right wing.

I'd just ignore Amagi if you want to keep the thread on topic.

One thing that does seem to be prevalent within these illegal settlers is that they seem to have a high religiosity, they seem to be of the chosen land belief (as in God granted land). I don't know whether that's a symptom of the changing mindset in Israeli society or it's always been present. It is a bit disturbing however. The last thing the region needs is for the conflict to get even more religious in nature.

[tree151]

I'd just ignore Amagi if you want to keep the thread on topic.

One thing that does seem to be prevalent within these illegal settlers is that they seem to have a high religiosity, they seem to be of the chosen land belief (as in God granted land). I don't know whether that's a symptom of the changing mindset in Israeli society or it's always been present. It is a bit disturbing however. The last thing the region needs is for the conflict to get even more religious in nature.

Religious settlers may be a majority in settlements, but I don't think religion should be blamed for it. The settler movement is not restricted to practicing Jews, it's goal is to expand Israel. While I don't think any Israeli would want to just abandon those territories, they are taking it a bit too far and don't understand that this is hurting Israel more than it helps.

[jankren]

What is this thing called Israel?

[Their Law]

What is this thing called Israel?

It's that country next to your userbar.

[Last Roman]

Please post your thoughts about the settlers and their role in the conflict. Do you think they are with Israel or against it? Do they represent the average Israeli to you?

admittedly, I know very little about the average Israeli. But one of my old roommates went to Tel Aviv and said the kids there were about the same as her, liked to go out and party. So no, I dont think the hardcore settlers represent Israel as a whole. But they do seem to take control rather easily. Israel needs to reel them in if they ever want peace with the Palestinians.