The party is over for Europe's Economy

**Count of Montesano** · May 27, 2010, 07:20 PM

First things first - I've lived in Europe for about a year and was impressed with their generous healthcare benefits, free college, and month-long mandated vacations. But this great piece in the NY Times shows that the party's pretty much over not just for Greece, but the rest of Europe too. Looks like Europeans better get used to working longer hours for less pay, accepting fewer benefits, and expecting to retire a decade later.

PARIS — Across Western Europe, the “lifestyle superpower,” the assumptions and gains of a lifetime are suddenly in doubt. The deficit crisis that threatens the euro has also undermined the sustainability of the European standard of social welfare, built by left-leaning governments since the end of World War II.

Europeans have boasted about their social model, with its generous vacations and early retirements, its national health care systems and extensive welfare benefits, contrasting it with the comparative harshness of American capitalism.

Europeans have benefited from low military spending, protected by NATO and the American nuclear umbrella. They have also translated higher taxes into a cradle-to-grave safety net. “The Europe that protects” is a slogan of the European Union.

But all over Europe governments with big budgets, falling tax revenues and aging populations are experiencing rising deficits, with more bad news ahead.

With low growth, low birthrates and longer life expectancies, Europe can no longer afford its comfortable lifestyle, at least not without a period of austerity and significant changes. The countries are trying to reassure investors by cutting salaries, raising legal retirement ages, increasing work hours and reducing health benefits and pensions.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/23/wo...html?th&emc=th

**Platon** · May 27, 2010, 09:01 PM

Originally Posted by Count of Montesano

...Looks like Europeans better get used to working longer hours for less pay, accepting fewer benefits, and expecting to retire a decade later...

Either that - or revolutions to change the system...

**ShockBlast** · May 28, 2010, 12:46 AM

It's called recession it's supposed to lower the standard of living,duh.

A NYT article about Europe how cute.

When will they stop with the nonsense that US is defending Europe?EU spends under 2% but they can equal US's 4% with no problem and without affecting our walfare system.Why would we do that and not use the money as fonds to develop the rest of the EU?

**Adar** · May 28, 2010, 02:11 AM

Here is a good general rule of thumb regarding American articles about European economy: Any article making sweeping references to a national entity called "Europe" is

.

There are actually two economic problems:

1) Southern europe where corruption and low production efficency have allowed the Euro to strangle their economies. Greece is the current major problem but Italy and Spain are the major threat due to their size and economical problems.

2) Great Britain where a retarded government and a population largely made up of chavs have caused a level of government spending which they cannot afford.

The funny thing is that Spain, Italy and Great Britain where some of the most active supporters of the US invasion of Iraq and sent troops to support USA in it's war against Iraq. The nations most famous for their "social welfare", "extensive wellfare" and "long vacations" like Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Germany, the Netherlands and Finland are actually doing quite well and are mostly suffering the backlash from the economic troubles in USA and Southern Europe.

So the article is pretty much wrong on both accounts. The nations suffering the worst are the nations that have been actively protecting and supporting USA in their war against terror and Iraqis rather than the other way around. And the nations with the extensive social security are doing quite okay.

Edit: The Swedish statistics for january-april just became official. We had a 98 billion SEK surplus (~12 billion USD) in our government finances.

**Kjertesvein** · May 28, 2010, 02:34 AM

It's called the EU, not Europe.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

**HansDuet** · May 28, 2010, 02:48 AM

Not at all.

**Treize** · May 28, 2010, 03:40 AM

And quite correct...

**Thorn777** · May 28, 2010, 04:02 AM

The article is shining example why the New York Times is steadily loosing quality and readers.

Very one sided bias and full of wild and generalizing claims. These guys really need to do some more in-depth and differentiated research before printing that piece of political bias in a once serious paper.

But I'm sure many Americans read stuff like that gladly.

**Caelius** · May 28, 2010, 05:31 AM

It's great to see the usual jingoistic reactionaries get all butt hurt over a single article.

And if the NYT is so bad i'd suggest some Europeans look closer to home when it comes to shotty journalism.

I distinctly remember reading Guardian and Der Speigel articles that made even more sweeping generalizations and overall schadenfreude at the US Economy when the housing market crashed in 2007.

Karma can be a real

, deal with it is what I say.

**Adar** · May 28, 2010, 06:42 AM

Originally Posted by Caelius

It's great to see the usual jingoistic reactionaries get all butt hurt over a single article.

The problem is that the article sucks.

Originally Posted by Caelius

And if the NYT is so bad i'd suggest some Europeans look closer to home when it comes to shotty journalism.

Welcome to the Political Mudpit. Where every post citing British media is answered by the comment "XXX sucks so I don't belive it".

It may also be worthwhile to know who your commenting. I tried searching Thorn777 and see if he had any quotes related to Der Spiegel (he is the only German posting in this thread so far). The result is:

Originally Posted by Thorn777

1.Hmm I have many complaints about our press to, and I think its a bold claim the US press is less reluctand to cover "dirty" storys about their politicians, TV priests etc.

So I think that you can drop the rethorics about British and Germans not criticizing their own media, they seem to cut them down just as roughly as they cut down the bogus NYT article.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

**Poach** · May 28, 2010, 06:42 AM

Can't speak for the rest of Europe but it's about damn time the UK's bloated and laziness-encouraging welfare system was cut down a few hundred billion pounds. Welfare should be reserved for those in serious difficulties.

**razor-** · May 28, 2010, 06:52 AM

So many retarded generalisations that just reek of bias, these two for example

European standard of social welfare, built by left-leaning governments since the end of World War II.

The development of welfare states after WWII were in many cases done by conservatives, France and Germany being the two largest.

Europeans have benefited from low military spending, protected by NATO and the American nuclear umbrella.

So no Europeans does has nuclear capabilites themselves?, also the development of welfare states was done alongside a big military build-up (in fear of the soviets) in many countries, it was after 1989 spending was cut back, actually while many countries liberalized (classic sense) their economies.

We are in a recesession, many money has been spend on saving failing companies (who are now again slowly beginning to experience growth), it is only natural that we have to work more, get less benefits and pay more taxes for a period. Also we are doing far more to correct ourselves than USA where they are constantly bailing out banks, spends twice as much on healthcare and where every tax increase is met with angry protests. Because we show responsibility towards our economies and take measures to preserve them they way they are, our system is suddenly failing?

**Snoopy** · May 28, 2010, 07:15 AM

Nah. European countries can probably figure out a way to keep the welfare running a while longer after this, though how long before they inevitably begin to fall apart and stagnate is a question of whether the USA collapses too.

**Count of Montesano** · May 28, 2010, 12:02 PM

The funny thing is that Spain, Italy and Great Britain where some of the most active supporters of the US invasion of Iraq and sent troops to support USA in it's war against Iraq. The nations most famous for their "social welfare", "extensive wellfare" and "long vacations" like Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Germany, the Netherlands and Finland are actually doing quite well and are mostly suffering the backlash from the economic troubles in USA and Southern Europe.

We are in a recesession, many money has been spend on saving failing companies (who are now again slowly beginning to experience growth), it is only natural that we have to work more, get less benefits and pay more taxes for a period.

Did anyone even read the article or did they just skim the top half that I published?!? The article interviews economic experts from France, Germany, and Sweden, so this article is not just about the obviously corrupt and failing economies like Greece. It also makes a good case that this isn't an ordinary recession but a long-term problem, as Europe has rapidly falling birth rates that simply can't support the current system. This is especially true with the exploding number of retirees (the US has the same problem but we have higher birth rates and higher immigration rates).

It's certainly fair to point out that the US has it's own problems, but the average expenditures on social programs in EU countries is far outpacing America. Statistics from the article:

Gross public social expenditures in the European Union increased from 16 percent of gross domestic product in 1980 to 21 percent in 2005, compared with 15.9 percent in the United States. In France, the figure now is 31 percent, the highest in Europe, with state pensions making up more than 44 percent of the total and health care, 30 percent.

If you're talking about bailouts, Europe is doing the same thing as America. If you're talking about overall responsibility, American households have reigned in their spending and have dramatically increased overall savings rates. But I think Americans do have valid concerns that policies like universal healthcare and overly generous public pensions simply do not work.

**Thorn777** · May 29, 2010, 10:00 AM

Originally Posted by Thorn777

But I'm sure many Americans read stuff like that gladly.

Originally Posted by Caelius

Karma can be a real

, deal with it is what I say.

Originally Posted by razor-

So many retarded generalisations that just reek of bias, these two for example

Exactly.

Originally Posted by Count of Montesano

Did anyone even read the article or did they just skim the top half that I published?!?

Oh yeah, and allot of anecdotes at that. The "experts" are talking about France btw(which has a system on its very own pedestal), then the author Steven Erlanger who is based in France(who has been accused on other issues for lazy reporting and blatant bias btw) makes giant generalizing and erroneous leaps for whatever reason. But I guess because bad news sells, and because the American/World rightwing drinks that kool-aid all to gladly.

And surely the aging population will be a problem, but its the same story in the US or Japan. At least most of western-Europe already takes appropriate measures(even in France which also has a crazy high savings-rate and fairly good birth-rates btw). For the US and with your republicans creating deadlocks and pandering old people/voters on their own term it will become more difficult to tackle the issue(take the expanding medicare costs for instance). And surely the world economy is a giant mess, but when the ... hits the fan, it counts for all of us. Completely beyond me why the European welfare-state model as a whole is questioned or why people believe there is some "party" going on here.