Dunkirk evacuation

[alhoon]

More than 300k soldiers were evacuated from France during June 1940 with the use of small ships, that were attacked by the German airforce. However, the Panzers didn't attack.

May I ask why the Panzers didn't attack? What was the strategical reasoning that led the Germans to think it would be better to not persue further?
Were they afraid they would lose the battle against those desperate trapped men and lose ground or what?

[Azog 150]

This happened 70 years ago today by the way.




No one really knows why the Panzers didn't attack. One theory is that Hitler thought that by letting the BEF go he could try and negotiate a peace settlement with Britain. One of his biggest mistakes of the war.

[conon394]

May I ask why the Panzers didn't attack? What was the strategical reasoning that led the Germans to think it would be better to not persue further?
Were they afraid they would lose the battle against those desperate trapped men and lose ground or what?

I think this is all too over done in WW2 history...

Army Group A did not attack because the Senior commanders (Rundstedt, Kluge etc) on the ground got cold feet and where spooked by an unsuccessful UK attack aimed at break out. Army Group B never stopped attacking. So even If Hitler overruled Rundstedt's original halt order I don't think any great Germany victory was in the offing.

The BEF commanders were already moving to evacuate and thus repositioning their troops to such effect.
The weather was still bad thus denying the German army its air support.
The area in question was still going to be in range of UK based air support thus the attack would always have have a more contested air situation that the initial German attacks.
The Belgians were still fighting (at first and there is no reason the local BEF commands would not just have played up the fighting still aspect and noit the hey your shafted but we have some room in the boats for you thing) the BEF could have moved north somewhat under German pressure (especially given Dunkirk was not exactly a profoundly great port with undamaged facilities and its not like beach based evacuations were not occurring)).
If Army group A moved against Dunkirk It seems like they would risk exposing their own flank to UK troops landing at Calais for example.
The operation (evacuation) on the UK side was over successful - seeing as the French troops just went back home to loose clear a less optimal evacuation was still possible and potentially fully useful from a UK point of view.

[tonymurphy1888]

I think this is all too over done in WW2 history...

It was a show of the British spirit the little boats and all.

[Azog 150]

I stand corrected.

[Darkhorse]

Additionally, the sandy beaches cushioned explosions from German aircraft and guns. If the beach was shingle or pebble, casualties, many resulting from the beach material being turned into shrapnel, would have been far far far higher.

[uzi716]

Hitler ordered the troops to stop because he was paranoid of a massive counter attack and that the Brits were luring him in for an attack.

[Nanny de Bodemloze]

There likely is no one single answer, rather a complicated mix of many.

Many respected historians will tell you that Hitler had hopes of pressuring Britain into a less active and more neutral stance (as deluded as that was), and felt perhaps that a whole-scale slaughter at Dunkirk may kill those chances

There other compelling arguments that point to fuel supply as being a major cause of the panzers stopping short...that the offensive had gone so quickly as to far outrun the supply lines, and that conservative estimates in German high command put the allied strength at much more than it was...thus, they feared a counteroffensive against their exposed and fuel-drained panzers.

[conon394]

I stand corrected.

Not really - my point is a bit polemical, I'm sure someone will defend the CW argument.

But I admit I don't buy the bargaining thing its a lot more easy to barging with with the UK if the BEF is destroyed/captured. This came up a year or back and I read over everything I could get my hands on but never posted. Taken day by day I do think its hard not see a couple things.

Army group A was very over extended, and its the senior German field commanders that initialed the halt.
The British commanders had more or less already decided evacuation was the only option and were moving to redeploy to that end.

Thus maybe the German tanks under (was it Rommel?) might have fought their way to Dunkirk but they would have ran into the BEF on the move already and as I noted the UK need only save most of its troops and could still and shifted North where the Belgians were still fighting

It was a show of the British spirit the little boats and all

Exactly but those little boats did not need Dunkirk and they only needed to get most of the UK troops home (and or men from countries like Poland whose governments were not spineless defeatist types) not the French...

[tonymurphy1888]

Exactly but those little boats did not need Dunkirk and they only needed to get most of the UK troops home no the French...

The French didnt want to leave

[conon394]

The French didnt want to leave

They did once they realized that no counter attack from the main French line was in the offing and that the Belgians where waving the white flag and that the BEF was getting out of town.

Look I don't mean to hammer the French the units trapped in the pocked fought well and effectively - its not it was the average Joe's err Pierre's fault his government and high command was inept and defeatist if not in some cases practically pro-German. The key point is just that the sea lift that was very successful taking men who where not in any way critical to the UK - if a third less where taken (no French) - the BEF still is saved more or less and France still falls

[alhoon]

The key point is just that the sea lift that was very successful taking men who where not in any way critical to the UK - if a third less where taken (no French) - the BEF still is saved more or less and France still falls

Well, the people in the little boats propably thought in terms of lives saved, not strategic turnpoints.
There's was no reason to not save that extra 1/3rd of not critical people.

[Janek]

Interesting exchange of views on the subject found in Museum:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=49503

[Nik]

There have been several theories brought forward why the german armour division received a stopping order.
We know it was issued at the 24th of May, 3 days after the french and british counterattacks at Arras, that the formal stopping order was given out by von Rundstedts HQ. At that time, the leading elements of the Armor Division were closer to Dunkirk than the british units. The advance was resumed at the 27th, with further delays through the stubborn defense of Lille by the remnants of the 1st French Army, delaying 7 german division, among them Rommels 7th Panzer Division.
The classical explanations have already been mentioned, the first being that Goering promised his Luftwaffe would destroy the allied forces, or that Hitler wanted to start negotiations with britain. Both are not taken seriously by modern research.
The tactical approaches explain the decision by the terrain around Arras, fears about further allied counter attacks or a the wish to preserve the Armod units for an envisioned southward advance against the rest of the french army.
IRC Frieser expains the halting order by a power struggle between the OKH and Hitler. The OKH and the leading german armor experts saw Hitler as an amateur, and repeatedly ignored Stopping Orders issued by Hitlers OKW. At Arras, Hitler forced the issue and finaly brought the OKH to heel, with the price that the Generals Gort and Blanchard got three days time to build the defenses of the Dunkirchen Pocket.

[Darkhorse]

The vast majority of evacuated soldiers were lifted from the pier by RN destroyers. So naval officers would have had control of who boarded. IIRC there was an order from Churchill himself, to evacuate only standing men. British strecher cases were left behind to make for French, Dutch and Belgian soldiers, seeing as we needed every man we could get.

fun fact.

Germany caputured enough equipment from Dunkirk to be able to equip a whole division with entierly British vehicles and equipment (equipment as in support guns and artillery at least.)

[Janek]

Germany caputured enough equipment from Dunkirk to be able to equip a whole division with entierly British vehicles and equipment (equipment as in support guns and artillery at least.)

any idea what unit would that be? I'm curious since I have seen pictures of various British vehicles./guns etc captured and put to use in France, Greece and specially in Africa but never heard of entire unit equipped with British guns and vehicles

[Azog 150]

What did they do with all that equipment? Put it to good use, put it in reserve or just scrap it?

[Darkhorse]

From what I know they used a lot of it. Mainly in Russia. They also used equipment captured in the desert. especially light vehicles. Not so much armour or anything.

Universal Carriers, Bren guns, Morris C8 (?) Artillery crew vehicles/tractor's were all popular with the Germans. Vickers light tank chassis's were turned into light AA vehicles. A lot of our machine guns and AT rifles and lighter guns and things found themselves in improvised mountings on German halftracks, Horches, Blitz's, and the like. Soldiers always have, and will continue to improvise.

This sort of thing isn't uncommon, in Africa much of our armour was captured Italian armour at one point.

[Darkhorse]

Just something I picked up somewhere. When I get home from work I'll try and find something for you. By the way, British guns, apart from things like the Bren and Thompson, which were valued, I don't think other small arms were used on a large scale.

[Domen123]

Many French soldiers were also evacuated from Dunkierk but not to Britain but to Southern France and they took part in defending France in June.