Why Napoleon was reluctant to commit the Imperial Guard

[Spartan262]

Well, I have my own theories about this, but I figured it would make for some good disscussion here on TWC.

So post your thoughts on this subject here.

[hellheaven1987]

Largely because it was/is difficult to find replacement for the lost for any elite unit.

[YuriVII]

You mean at Borodino right?

I dont know, he managed to get Russians off the field but I dont know if he coulda routed russians with them either. Very scary to put your best most unreplaceable unit in the biggest meat grinder (at that time) in history.

[Senno]

This thread seems to be lacking a bit of discussion. PM sent to OP, hope to see some more material provided to frame the discussion/debate.

[Nik]

The imperial Guard was not only an elite military unit but also Napoleons personal army loyal only to him, and he needed this force also as an assurance against interior trouble.
From the beginning the imperial guard (still as guard consulaire) was instrumental in the Brumaire coup, forcing the delegates of the national assembly into line.
And after Napoleons grasp for power, he still had a lot of enemies conspiring against him, be it royalist, military or republican/jacobin. For instance, Napoleon had to leave Russia early because rumours of his death had made the situation in Paris unstable and requried his personal attendance.

[Mangalore]

To make something elite you give them funny hats and tell them they are elite. It's bad to send them into a combat situation where everyone realizes that they bleed like anyone else. Thus using elite units only where they can certainly win and multiply their actual combat power with their reputation of being space monsters is important.

Note: doesn't mean that those units weren't better than average or didn't deserve their battle honors but that alot of their clout comes from not fighting while the enemy is still obliged to resist at all costs where they couldn't do that much better than any other experienced unit.

[konny]

To make something elite you give them funny hats and tell them they are elite. It's bad to send them into a combat situation where everyone realizes that they bleed like anyone else. Thus using elite units only where they can certainly win and multiply their actual combat power with their reputation of being space monsters is important.

Good point. In particular in a time when infantry fighting mostly meant shooting each with smoothbore muskets while standing in line, being elite doesn't give you any real advantage.

And of course, knowing your unit would only be ordered to advance when it is a save bet you win would make you much more confident in your commander's decisions (=braver), than knowing you would be the first to sent in as cannon fodder.

[KaRoU23]

Well imperial units were characterized generally for their unrivalred bravery and stamina.... However they were used generally in internal city strifes...Let's take into account the Praetorian unit for example...Rarely did it get out of the city...Now, as for the Imperial Guard, it it what guys above me said...Recruiting a soldier into so high ranks required a lot of effort and training, so they would be in use only in very important manners.

By the way u mean Napoleon's Old Guard (or was the Imperial Guard another unit???)

[Spartan262]

By the way u mean Napoleon's Old Guard (or was the Imperial Guard another unit???)

The Imperial Guard was , The Young Guard (The Young Guard wasan't created until 1809 or 1808 something like that.) The Middle Guard, and The Old Guard. Those units made up the Imperial Gaurd along with the Guard Cavalry and Guard Artillary.

Anyways, I find that it is a bit rediculous at certain times where he could break the enemy or defeat them even more thouroughly that Napoleon wouldn't send in the Guard (As said before a good exaple is Borodino) . I understand that the Guard was hard to replace, but still. Oh and I agree with the statement about the Guard just being regular men, but that wasan't really made clear until Waterloo (Correct me if I'm wrong)

[torongill]

To answer the OP, Napoleon was reluctant, because besides everything else, he was a human and some say he was attached to the Old Guard.
The guard was claimed to be invincible, extremely brave, etc, etc. The whole army held the Guard in, to be blunt, reverence. Now take into consideration Borodino. What if the Guard fails? What if they are forced to retreat? What will be the prospects for the army's fighting spirit?

[Nik]

To make something elite you give them funny hats and tell them they are elite. It's bad to send them into a combat situation where everyone realizes that they bleed like anyone else. Thus using elite units only where they can certainly win and multiply their actual combat power with their reputation of being space monsters is important.

Reputation always had an influence, friend and foe alike, but degrading a veteran unit to clowns with more expensive dresses that simply march in line like everybody else (formulated in extremis) probably falls short from the truth as well.

For one there is the general skill level. Though a musket ball will kill someone the same if fired by a raw recruit or a master marksman, there are things in the equation like reload speed, aiming etc that make the fire of one unit more devastating than the other.
The ability to perform complex maneuver is another distinguishing skill level. To change from Column in line, to reform a skirmisher screen back into a solid formation, keep an extended formation together while advancing over uneven terrain, all under fire, in smoke and heightened stress level is a feat that takes a lot of training. Veterans of several campaigns will be able to draw something off like that far more consistently than green recruits.
Morale is important. A lot of formations broke when receiving several point blank volleys or under the threat of a bayonet charge (look at the Continental army, that consistently broke when faced with british regulars until the french and von Steuben put some spine in their collective back.
Veterans know what they can pull off, and have confidence by having lived through worse, putting them above the rank and file as well.

The Old Guard were surely not invincible, and no gods mowing everything in their path, but man for man, they were above normal soldiers.

By the way u mean Napoleon's Old Guard (or was the Imperial Guard another unit???)

As mentioned before, the Imperial Guards had three level of seniority, with the Old Guards being either Veterans of Napoleons campaigns before he became emperor or units that had spectacularily profen their mettle, like the polish lancers. They were also called the Grognards (for being the only ones allowed to critisize Napoleon and using that privilege to the fullest).
The Middle Guards were veterans from campaigns between 1805 and 1810, with the prospect of rising into the old guard.
The Young Guard were, in Theory, the best recruits in their years, but after the disaster in Russia, their ranks were greatly increased (using hte guard fame to draw in volunteers), though their quality dropped dramatically in several units.

[Mangalore]

Reputation always had an influence, friend and foe alike, but degrading a veteran unit to clowns with more expensive dresses that simply march in line like everybody else (formulated in extremis) probably falls short from the truth as well

...

I didn't degrade anyone but the verterans would have performed just as well or poorly in their old units. The idea of elitism is to a large degree one of psychology for the units herself and the enemy who faces her. Facing the Totenkopf division sounds scarier than reserve infantry division 234 from Styria aside of the latter being probably just recently raised in a hurry.

Esspecially with advent of modern war if regular units rose to a certain level of quality the actual difference when facing each other weren't that great and they could only hope their commanders were up to snuff (usually meaning the commanders bombed the crap out of anyone at a distance before sending them in).

There'd be still a vast difference between green troops and experienced ones of course and what you did in those elite units was to remove any green troops so rose the average. Just alot of "elite" is cloud and mirrors or they are elite because you need them for something else entirely, like guarantee your position as king, dictator or emperor.

[Count of Montesano]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't elite soldiers like the grenadiers of the 18th century and the imperial guard of the 19th selected for superior height and strength? If you've ever been next to a NBA player or NFL linebacker, you'll quickly see that their sheer size is intimidating. Someone who was 5'11" or taller had a distinct advantage over the average soldier who was around 5'6".

As far as why Napoleon didn't commit the guard, I'm not enough of a Napoleonics expert to answer that. Maybe some of the more knowledgable historians on this board can say whether Napoleon deployed the guard in other major battles like Austerlitz or Leipzig. I know he sent the guard to their deaths at Waterloo, but that seems like a last ditch effort.

[konny]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't elite soldiers like the grenadiers of the 18th century and the imperial guard of the 19th selected for superior height and strength?

Speaking for 18th Century Prussian army, height indeed was the requirement in the peace time army. In war usually the most reliable and experienced soldiers were transfered to the grenadier companies. Each battalion had one such company, making two per regiment. The grenadier companies of two regiments were compined to a battalion of grenadiers.

These grenadier battalions often operated detached from their parent units on exposed positions of the battleline. Here being taller than the average guy wouldn't be important, but not running away when the first shells tear your comrads apart would.

[Spartan262]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't elite soldiers like the grenadiers of the 18th century and the imperial guard of the 19th selected for superior height and strength? If you've ever been next to a NBA player or NFL linebacker, you'll quickly see that their sheer size is intimidating. Someone who was 5'11" or taller had a distinct advantage over the average soldier who was around 5'6".

As far as why Napoleon didn't commit the guard, I'm not enough of a Napoleonics expert to answer that. Maybe some of the more knowledgable historians on this board can say whether Napoleon deployed the guard in other major battles like Austerlitz or Leipzig. I know he sent the guard to their deaths at Waterloo, but that seems like a last ditch effort.

Well I'm not sure on the requirements of the Middle Guard, but the Young Guard was the top soldiers from each years conscripts, and the Old Guard soldiers had to be veterans of at least two campaigns and I belive some other requirement.

I'm not sure the Guard engaged at either Austerlitz or Leipzig

[Mangalore]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't elite soldiers like the grenadiers of the 18th century and the imperial guard of the 19th selected for superior height and strength? If you've ever been next to a NBA player or NFL linebacker, you'll quickly see that their sheer size is intimidating. Someone who was 5'11" or taller had a distinct advantage over the average soldier who was around 5'6". ...

There's certainly that but bullets and gunballs don't care and one could say being a bigger target is not helpful at all.

Though up to the early 19th century the effect in the bayonet charge would be greater and more efficient but they could still be mauled badly if running into the wrong kind of enemy position (e.g. trenches and artillery support).

I think the Imperial Guard was exclusively based on merits aka campaign experience, but I guess they had grenadiers or sappers as specialized units who would prefer big guys.

[KaRoU23]

Oh god i knew about these 3 types but i didn't know they consisted the Imperial Guard generally!!! By the way, about the reliabillity of the elite units, i agree with Nik...Reputation, reloading speed and adaptability were very important....We must also bear in mind,that these troops have gone into real heavy training and their morale is building continuously....So does their experience...As for the clothing, elite units were heavily decorated in order to create fear among the opponent, by making them recognise that they are the best of the army, like the Polish Hussars, who had wings in their back.

[Farnan]

Well part of the reason is as long as they didn't lose they had a certain psychological effect. His troops fought harder and longer since they knew the Guard was behind them supporting them if the fight got too tough, and the enemy feared their presence and it hurt their ability to fight. If they would lose a battle they'd lose a level of that psychological effect.

[Count of Montesano]

Well part of the reason is as long as they didn't lose they had a certain psychological effect. His troops fought harder and longer since they knew the Guard was behind them supporting them if the fight got too tough, and the enemy feared their presence and it hurt their ability to fight. If they would lose a battle they'd lose a level of that psychological effect.

Which is exactly what happened at Waterloo.

[Prince of Darkness]

According to the Wikipedia, the Old Guard wasn't as good as the Middle Guard in terms of physical endurance because the Old Guardsmen were generally over 30 years old and considered too old for military service.
But Napoleon did commit his Imperial Guard Cavalry, notable in Austerlitz, Eylau, and Borodino. The French Grenadier a Cheval and Polish Guard Lancers are exceptionally good, been never defeated in battle.
At Austerlitz Napoleon's 4 squadrons each of Grenadier a Cheval and Guard Chasseur a Cheval plus a half squadron of Mamelukes successfully defeated 5 squadrons each of Russian Chevalier Garde, Lifeguard Horse, and Lifeguard Hussars plus 2 squadrons of Lifeguard Cossacks.