Eastern civilizations - need advice

[Boriak]

I've played only western civilizations so far and was thinking of trying an eastern this time. From reading the guides and AARs I see that playing one of these is quite different than what I played so far. Can someone point out what I need to be careful about?

[Lordinquisitor]

I`d would be good to know which eastern faction you want to play.. There are some differences here.

Though, in general i`d say that you`ll meet more (good) archers, more heavy cavalry and more horse archers. Sometimes even heavy horse archers! More Maneuvering and a good mixture of units will be needed.

[Anubis88]

I urge you to start ASAP with a horse-archer faction, Pahlava preferably. I was a hardcore infantry player, and like you, i was going into the unknown... And great it was. The Pahlava campaign is still my second longest one, i think I played till 60 BC... (it has been only beaten by my current Romani, which is 27BC).

Anyways, you will have to learn how to use horse-archers to their maximum, once you'll get a hold on that, no army can stop you. Except if it's an enemy army full of HA and Cataphracts... That can be a problem. In my Pahlava campaign the Saka king was near my northern bother for 20 years or sth, with a full stack of some even gold-chevroned units, all Cata's, FM's and Horse Archers... Thankfully the Sarmatians were in a prolonged war with them, so he never attacked me... I doubt i would be able to stop that army, even with overwhelming numbers...

As i said before, you will try a completly new battle plan. If you want a very fun battle, make your army sth like 10 HA ( a few with a lance), a FM, and 1 unit of Catapracts... My favourite battle in EB happend when i had that army. I defeated near Edessa an army of 5000 Seleucids and broke their back forever.

I hope i made you at least a bit enthusiastic about this sort of faction. I was sceptical at the begining, but it really was a campaing that i will never forget.

If you have any specific questions, go ahead and ask

[Boriak]

I started Pahlava and Hayasdan to see their goals and initial position. I see that Pahlava has very little Eleutheroi towns around them to conquer which I believe is the first thing to do before taking on any empires. Hayasdan has several Eleutheroi towns around them but then they are trapped between Seleucids and Sauromatae (could be hard place). I'm still not sure which one of these campaigns I shall play for real.

I did read that these two civilizations have a very complicated government system. I took a look at the Pahlava Reformed Government Guide and it explains the process itself but is this the only way to do it? This would mean one has to spend a ton of gold and time just to get the basic infrastructure working. Where do I get the funds for this? Can I build anything before doing the whole process?

I have a tactical question as well. The cataphracts are suppose to be used in a frontal charge but most enemies the Pahlava or Hayasdan see use phalanxes and charging into those doesn't seem the best idea. So are cataphracts really used in a frontal charge or do I use them in the Macedonian anvil/hammer way to ram in the rear?

[A_Dane]

Personally, i'm seriously enjoying my ongoing hayasdan campaign. Currently i'm at 225 bc or something close to that. I must admit that i've been extremely dependant on mercenaries & my family members for cavalry, as i've never really had time to build any sort of working economy or barrakcs.

However i think that's about to change i'm pretty certain the seleucids won't bother me for a while (conqueored everything from antioch to persepolis) and just slaughtered 3.5k ptollies in 3 battles outside jerusalem (and 1.5k sabas at bostra for that matter, they've got nothing but their garrisons left :p)

looking forward to building up a proper empire & acheiving the reform and then invade asia minor. Pontos is fighting hard with the makedons, and just sacked pella (makedonia has whiped out the getai & eperios).

one of the most enjoyable campaigns i've played atleast :b

[Lordinquisitor]

Phalanxes certainly are dangerous. Usually i try to pin them down with some cheap fodder troops and charge from behind. You can also place one unit of riders in fron of them and on in the rear.. They can turn how they want, one will be able to charge into the vulnerable side.

Personally i`d try the saka. Their campaign might be difficult, but after a few battles you will begin to understand the nature of eastern warfare.

[Faramir D'Andunie]

Phalanxes certainly are dangerous. Usually i try to pin them down with some cheap fodder troops and charge from behind. You can also place one unit of riders in fron of them and on in the rear.. They can turn how they want, one will be able to charge into the vulnerable side.

Carefull with trying that one. If the unit that is pinning them down is too cheap/low quality and the rear charge does not break the phalanx there is a high chance that they will turn to face the flanking unit and cause annoying big casualties.


Eastern factions are a blast. Without counting the eastern greeks, my favourite would be Hayasdan.
Hard starting position and an extremely interesting roster with a good mix of infantry and cavalry.

Also, I would recomment not to spam too many horse archers in your games. Extremely effective, to the point that it slowly feels too easy. Killed my mood for a lot of campaigns in the past.

[Lordinquisitor]

Oh yes, i know. You have to micromanage them. I tend to focus on the faster units first and later i`ll pick the phalanxes apart, one by one. (If i get the choice, hehe.)

Sometimes the phalanxes will even switch to their secondary weapons- Then it`s a cakewalk.

[Horse Archer]

If you want to "ease in" to the Eastern style of fighting try Baktria or Pontos or even the Getai, but jumping straight in a nomad campaign is extremely fun (and hard, especially with the lack of a sound economy). Battles require a lot more spread out maneuvering, and the concept of a "battle line" will start to feel somewhat foreign.

[Xerrop]

Can someone point out what I need to be careful about?

Well the basic difference on the battlefield is that you (should) have no battle-line cause you lack heavy infantry that can engage phalanxes succesful (depends on the faction though, Pontus e.g. has some good and useful infantry).

Your units should surround the enemy ones and take them out one after another by shower them with arrows from all sides. Best from behind of course. So battles are a bit more difficult or should I better say hectic and need more use of the pause-button cause I can´t let the units alone due to the lack of an main battle line. Micromanaging your units it the key to victory and great success.

[Boriak]

I think I will choose Hayasdan. Pahlava has no real provinces to conquer without provoking the Seleucids and I'm not crazy enough to try that.

[Lordinquisitor]

Well, in my experience the seleucids aren`t able to defend their cities. They have too many enemies and your bodyguards are able to crush almost anything.

[Boriak]

The way I see it, Pahlava has a very small army and quite negative profits. How can I fight the Seleucids with no cash?

[A_Dane]

you're not gonna have much cash with hayasdan (or pontos for that matter) either, but in my opinion, Hayasdan is best off income wise, you don't loose that much per turn, and 2 cities very close to your capital you can conqueror, then you can go on to Trebizond & Ani-kamah (most of these cities has mines too). But by then the seleucids will probably come knocking :/

[athanaric]

The way I see it, Pahlava has a very small army and quite negative profits. How can I fight the Seleucids with no cash?

Raid and pillage.

Be prepared to give up settlements you've just taken, siege wooden walled towns with HAs (and wait for the sally), etc. Generally you have to apply a nomadic style of warfare in the early stages of a Pahlava campaign.
Once you have conquered, say, Astauene, Hyrkania, Parthyaia, Gabiene, and one or two more provinces, you can start thinking about reformed governments. By then your income will be in the black, but your armies still small and mostly composed of HAs and FMs.

[Anubis88]

Yet don't forget, that with Pahlava small armies, especially with a few early FM's can beat a full stack of Seleucid rabble.

Don't think that you can't make miracles with the Pahlava. Once you'll get used to it, the army ratio 1:2 for the enemy will be the same as with 2:1 for you with infantry based factions.

The problem with Hayasdan is that you may quickly be attacked by the Seleucids, Sarmatians and Pontos. On the other hand with Pahlava you must only fight the Seleucids and one of the Baktria/Saka. I managed to do a diplomatic revolutionin TW games, where i played the Baktrians and Sakas by once supporting one, once the other, to be in constant war, with few provinces gained or lost. They were to busy fighting each other for more than 150 years, leaving me to slowly engoulf the seleucids.

Also, the Hayasdan units are overal a bit weaker than the Pahlavan ones (except mellee infantry)

[Boriak]

Well, I signed a peace treaty with Sauromatae and Pontos doesn't bother me. But Seleucids came and attacked my capitol. Since I'm trying to RP my gaming, I used forced diplomacy to make them accept a peace treaty immediately. I mean what's the point of attacking your own satrapy? After a turn they attack again. My cash is -3000 so I cannot afford any troops plus I have to garrison the cities. I use three FM on the battlefield but I cannot use just them against phalanxes.

Any advice?

[Lordinquisitor]

If you can`t get enough infantry kill the rest of their army first, then encircle the phalanx with your FM (but don`t charge right at them!). Wait till you have one FM in their back and strike swift and sudden, move back (before they can turn) and strike again and again

Ideally they will always go after the Fm that recentely charged them and another one will be able to get in their back..

[korsakoff]

the really bad thing about eastern factions is thier lack of infantry so yeah if you are fighting phalanxes you are best using cheap infantry to hold them while your horse archers and cavalry can get them from the sides. you could also keep a reserve of infantry to get behind thier phalanxes or use elephants

[A_Dane]

In early game as hayasdan i just mass native hellenic spearmen & some eastern slingers (those guys are absolutely brutal). place the slingers on your left flank, so they can hit the phalanxes exposed right side.
And then just wait until they engage your native infantry, then crash into them from behind.

Also, if they have a general target him with your own family members, if he's gone he won't annoy you & the enemy will most of the time flee when you hit them from behind