Xi Xia dynasty - Unit Previews & Roster Development

[Yelü Dashi]

Thanks to RW the Tangut roster is pretty much ready. I also have enough concept art to begin tackling this roster. The questions I now have are concerning aesthetics rather than unit types, so its time for this thread to deal with those. I will start moving some parts of the posts from the research thread over here where necessary. I am going to start by creating 6 unique meshes:

Meshes:

mesh #1: Foot treaders (commoners)
mesh #2 : Iron Sparrowhawks (nobles)
mesh #3: Regulars (Zhenjun) (nobles)
mesh #4: Enslavers
mesh #5: Tangut Commoners (commoners)
mesh #6: Slave units (2 x Han 1 x Tibetan 1 x Uighur)



These will are now assigned to the roster units RW has laid out (I've added Hanyu Pinyin names where possible as I think thats the best naming convention):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Imperial army:

Hostage sons horse archers : heavy HA [modified mesh #2 – richer looking]
Mount: Iron lamellar horse armour

Iron Sparrow Hawks / Tie Yao Zi : heavy cav (more common than the other two) [IronSpHk mesh]
Mount: Iron lamellar horse armour

Hostage sons guardsman : archers + heavy pole-arm ? [modified mesh #2 – richer looking]


Regulars:

Tangut Regular horseman / Tangut Zhengjun Qibing正軍馬兵: medium HA. [most common, nomadesque, mesh #3]
Mount: leather horse armour

Tangut Regular infantry// Tangut Zhengjun Bubing 步兵: heavy sword and shield. [mesh #3]

Tangut Regular spear man/ Tangut Zhengjun Qiangshou : heavy spear man [mesh #3]

Tangut Regular lancers/ Tangut Zhengjun Gong Mabing : medium cavalry [mesh #3]
Mount: leather horse armour

Foot treaders:

Foot treader archer / Bubazi Gongshou [mesh #1]
Foot treader spear man/ Bubazi Qiangshou [mesh #1]
Foot treader javelin man / Bubazi Biaoqiangbing (most common) [mesh #1]

Irregulars:

Enslaver light cavalry / Qinshengjun Mabing (most common) [mesh #4, no armour, swords]
Tangut auxiliary horse archer Xia Qingji (common) [mesh #5, no armour]
Enslaver camel riders / Qinshengjun Luobing[mesh #4, no armour, swords]
Tangut auxiliary archer/ Xia Gongshou 輕騎 (very common) [mesh #5, no armour]


Slave units:

Charger spear-man / Zhuang Linglang 撞令郎 (common slave units, armor level can be upgraded a lot I guess) [mesh #6]
Charger crossbow-man Han Nushou 弩手(heavy crossbow-mans, fairly elite units) [mesh #6]

[Yelü Dashi]

mesh #1

I have made a start on the "Foot Treaders" or Bubazi which will form the backbone of the Tangut infantry, as mentioned previously they are based on Dangxiang/Qiang tribal costumes (and large part on two Rusichi woodsmen models ) :

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Augustus Lucifer]

Oh, Foot Treaders. I read it without the 'e' at first and was scratching my chin and having odd thought bubbles.

Looks good either way.

[Wundai]

Oh goody goody's!

[RollingWave]

WOW, epic.

I think it would make sense for some of them to have javlin though, since they were noted to fighting up and down mountains in a more skrimisher sort of fashion.

[Yelü Dashi]

There will be three types of Bubazi infantry (swords&clubs, spears, javelins) - this was just a test run, I am following your roster mate !
Glad you're here as I have a few questions to ask over the weekend.

Cheers.

[danova]

Hm mate, this is huge rooster...
.

[Yelü Dashi]

Hm mate, this is huge rooster...
.

This big ?

True, but there will be only six different meshes, with some variations, won't take that long. Already finished mesh #1 & mesh #5 ....and of course, things would go quicker if I had some "assistance"

[danova]

yes this big, but this is Huge...
.

[Yelü Dashi]

yes this big, but this is Huge...
.

lulz...


I'm confused about what kind of horses the Tangut used. In our wiki I selected the modern Hequ breed as the cloest modern breed (known as the Nanfan in our era?), but I am thinking that after the Mongol invasion this horse has probably had such a large admixture of Mongolian stock that it doesn't resemble the original ones.

This quote from the link above is quite interesting:

During the T'ang dynasty (618-917) the emperor established a large horse facility (in the Xia territory) to develop the calvary. To do so he imported large numbers of horses from western Asian countries to use on the local Tibetan stock. Chief among the breeds influencing the Hequ were animals imported from Dawan. Dawan was the ancient Chinese name for the kingdom that included Fergana, home of the Akhal-Teke breed. During the Yuan dynasty (1279-1368), Mongols of the Xianbei tribe invaded the area resulting in Mongolian stock being mixed with the Hequ.

So my question is mainly aimed at RW, are their any sources that comment on the Tangut horses ? As the Khitans are going get the best (and largest) horses on the map, something approaching the famous Akhal-Teke horses or the Ili - so should the Tanguts get the same ? Or something stockier that is a just a hyrid of the Tibetan ponies and more Central Asian breeds ?

[Yelü Dashi]

I'm getting the feeling horses from the Gansu region were pretty good, and distinct (and certainly more attractive) from Tibetan and Mongolian breeds:

[Augustus Lucifer]

Why are the horses not wearing hats?

[Yelü Dashi]

LOL. its a bit like talking to myself sometimes.... Where's RW when you need him ?

[Yelü Dashi]

Some questions:

- Should the Regular troops been armoured with leather or iron
lamellar ? (I know they should have helmets, bracers and foot guards).

- Should the Iron Sparrowhawks have a completely unqiue mesh, or share one with the Imperial Guard (Hostage Sons) troops ?

- I want to make a unit from the guy on the left hand side with giant mace and sword (there is painting in dunhuang of these guys, some sort of imperial infantry bodyguard ?), but I am not sure where they'd fit ?

[Augustus Lucifer]

Why is he wearing a nightie?

THERE WILL BE NO SLEEPING ON THE BATTLEFIELD MEN!

[Marcion]

- I want to make a unit from the guy on the left hand side with giant mace and sword (there is painting in dunhuang of these guys, some sort of imperial infantry bodyguard ?), but I am not sure where they'd fit ?

Well the fact that he has no visible armor and that he was in a grotto painting kind of says he had some ceremonial purpose. Dudes with gigantic maces might make a nice parallel to the Zhan Ma Dao, but they should probably have some kind of armor, and hats that are right side up, and made of metal.

[Yelü Dashi]

And he's got his hat on upside down as as well, as if he's just out bed the wrong way (I'm an expert on these things you know )

[RollingWave]

Some questions:

- Should the Regular troops been armoured with leather or iron
lamellar ? (I know they should have helmets, bracers and foot guards).

- Should the Iron Sparrowhawks have a completely unqiue mesh, or share one with the Imperial Guard (Hostage Sons) troops ?

- I want to make a unit from the guy on the left hand side with giant mace and sword (there is painting in dunhuang of these guys, some sort of imperial infantry bodyguard ?), but I am not sure where they'd fit ?

- I don't have much to base this on, though given the relative comaprason of the armies they were fighting it seems that at least their higher tier troops were iron armored. so I guess we can make the easy seperation of some of the commoner's troops (foot treader, the enslaver units , the light cav and light horse archers etc) should be leather while the more noble or special unit based should be iron.

- Sparrowhawks started out as sort of the immediate retinue of the Xia's founder. so i'm guessing that their armor appearance should be fairly close.

- yeah I guess those guys would be the guards. it would be cool to make them different from the other imperial guard type guys.

lulz...


I'm confused about what kind of horses the Tangut used. In our wiki I selected the modern Hequ breed as the cloest modern breed (known as the Nanfan in our era?), but I am thinking that after the Mongol invasion this horse has probably had such a large admixture of Mongolian stock that it doesn't resemble the original ones.

This quote from the link above is quite interesting:

So my question is mainly aimed at RW, are their any sources that comment on the Tangut horses ? As the Khitans are going get the best (and largest) horses on the map, something approaching the famous Akhal-Teke horses or the Ili - so should the Tanguts get the same ? Or something stockier that is a just a hyrid of the Tibetan ponies and more Central Asian breeds ?

From what I read it seems that the Xia was more famous for it's swords (metal works) than anything. though it certainly was on par with it's neighbors in terms of horsemanship at worse. but were they really better than the Jurchens / Khitans / Mongols? I have to look it up.

[Yelü Dashi]

mesh # 5 Tangut Commoners (i.e. auxilary troops - similar to Jin Alixi)

These will be used for two units, one HA and the other infantry archers (can't decide on the robes colouring) do you prefer the yellow or blue ?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Yelü Dashi]

mesh #3: Regulars (Zhenjun) [DRAFT]

Needs a bit of sprucing up, but I quite like the bracers and shields guards (as mentioned in the historical record) will also add a plume to the helmet . The heavy infantry version of these guys will actually carry straight swords and oblong shields:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: