Polished Poland

[Silesian_Noble]

Thanks. Sure - once I release this mod - why not. I`m considering to turn this into regional campaign set in years 960-1150, involving Polans/Poland, Bohemia, HRE, Rus` and Denmark. Maybe you can help me out a little bit with 10th-11th century German military history (troops, type of weapons/armour)?

That is a great idea, but I have one condtion here: it would have to include a Polabian faction (Obodrites or Veleti) and a Baltic faction too (most likely Prussians).

[konny]

Maybe you can help me out a little bit with 10th-11th century German military history (troops, type of weapons/armour)?

No problem, check out these two threads for our roster:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=281149
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=283169

That's basically it for Germany. Our roster is focused on the 12th Century, so some changes would be needed to make it fitting to the 10th Century:

The imperial army was mostly levy back then, so the "Militia"-class untis would play the major role. The foot seemed to have been rather crappy, properly not more than unarmoured spearmen and a handfull of archers.

In an Ottonian army I would expect everyone who could afford it, and who is better equipped, to be mounted. For the Battle of Lechfeld (955) we hear nothing about German footsoldiers and the like. The backbone would have been the unit we have called Arimanni (a term from contemporary Lombard sources). These would have been well armoured heavy horsemen with spears; no couched lances, this tactics was developed a century later.

Swords would be a rarity in the early periode. Those horsemen used spears in the middle grip or overhead and that way didn't need a side arm, in particular not one that was as insanly expensive as a good sword was. This changed too in the second half of the 11th Ct. with the advent of the couched lance.

You would need some dismounted units for tactical reasons (sieges and the like), but despite some single, overinterpreted, notes from the sources, the Medieval Germans did not develop a tradition of dismounted combat, but were experts in heavy cavalry. There were many examples from the early and high Middle Ages of German armies that were indeed completly mounted, or of battles in which only the mounted elements of German armies actually entered combat.


Concerning arms and armour, better ask an expert for the Ottonian army if I am talking nonsense, but as far as I see it, both foot and horse used first of all spears, later lances and swords for the knights. Later in your time frame, German knights became (in-)famous for using all kind of "unchivalresque" weapons, such as maces and axes, down to small knifes to stabb through vizors.

Germany never developed a true tradition of archery, even though it is said that the longbow (=warbow) was actually a German invention from the Migration Periode. Nevertheless, Germans never were realy famous as bowmen, and the crossbow very quickly replaced the bow as primary ranged weapon. I cannot give you any fixed date for that, in particular because crossbowmen were also called "archers" in the sources. This weapon was known since late Antiquity and never completely fell out of use (for example in southern France as a weapon for hunting), but the widespread use as a war-weapon did not start before later in the 11th Century, originating from Italy.

I am rather clueless on javelins. Throwing spears seems to have been a suitable way of combat for western European heavy cavalry prior to the couched lance, as the Bayeux Tapestry tells us. In the Italian Wars in the later 11th and 12th Century I know javelins are named quite frequently, but only for the Italians. So, at least I am very certain that the later professional German knights, and those elements of their retinue that followed them into battle, did not use javelins.

In armour, it seems they sticked to chainmail first of all. A complete suite was insanly expensive, and with the early levy armies I would expect aromur to be rather incomplete even for the heavy cavalry. The later professional knights did wear much more complete armour, such as mailed leggins, mailed hoods and the like. In general, availabilty of armour is often much exaggerated for prior the 13th Ct.


Around 1100 there was a major change, most likely originating from the couched lance and the according shock tactics. This required more expensive equippment (specially trained horses, a sword as secondary weapon, better shields and armour) and to donate more time in training. This drew a line between any levied richer landowner and a professional soldier. At this point we can speak about knights in a military sense.

It seems in Germany said shock tactics were used at least since the Saxon Wars in the 1070s/80s. During the 12th Century the Germans reached a certain level of perfection in knightly combat, and the levy completly disappeared from the rosters until around 1150 (at this point it became even forbidden to own spears for peasants). So, the units that we have called "the feudal units" and "the mercenary Gleve" would be the correct line-up for a 12th Century German army.

Auxiliar forces, as described, were rather pathetic. Later in the 12th Century, last but not least with the growning cities in western Germany, well equipped and better trained mercenary footsoldiers became of importance, but this would already be outside your time frame.

[HannibalExMachina]

really beautiful, have you thought about varied colours? it would look a bit more realistic compared to the uniform red-white faction color.

[sumskilz]

Nice work thrashing-mad

However, I do have a few suggestions:

I agree with what others have said, having historical color varieties would look much better.

You may consider working with a different mail texture. What you are using now is okay but looks a little bit too much like a silver knit sweater, IMO.

And perhaps most importantly, I think using vanilla style normal maps doesn't do justice to your otherwise nice textures. For example, painted patterns on shields should not look like they are raised off the shield’s surface by several centimeters. I wrote a tutorial on making better normal maps that doesn't require any special programs: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=345554

Just a little constructive criticism. For what it's worth, I wouldn't have bothered saying anything if I didn't think your work is already very promising.

EDIT: And just so you know that I'm not some joker talkin out his arse, here's a link to one of my units using normal maps created with this technique :
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=341275

[sumskilz]

Yeah, my mail texture is too detailed - it looks ok if you zoom in at max, but not so good at longer distances. Probably better suited for 'Mount and Blade' than M2TW (overall my textures are more high-res than vanilla ones).

If that is the problem, try using Smart Sharpen on it set to about 30%. It might look too crisp on the texture but it will be clearer from a distance when in the game. Also, using my normal map technique should give it better definition. If you just used the Nvidia plugin as is (without inverting) then the normal map is actually working against the shading of your texture. The Nvidia plugin makes dark stand out and light recessed so you can see how that is opposite of what you want for the rings of mail.

I use this setting for Smart Sharpen:



EDIT: But with the "More Accurate" box checked.

[thrashing_mad]

If that is the problem, try using Smart Sharpen on it set to about 30%. It might look too crisp on the texture but it will be clearer from a distance when in the game.

Yeah, I thought about trying that.

Also, using my normal map technique should give it better definition. If you just used the Nvidia plugin as is (without inverting) then the normal map is actually working against the shading of your texture. The Nvidia plugin makes dark stand out and light recessed so you can see how that is opposite of what you want for the rings of mail.

Damn - that`s quite a revelation for me

I use this setting for Smart Sharpen:



EDIT: But with the "More Accurate" box checked.

I would definitely give it a try.

[Heathen Storm]

AHHH Thrashing these units are completely and utterly BEAUTIFUL! Do you think... perhaps... If you were okay with it... Could I use these early units in my mod, Heiðinn Veðr (Heathen Storm) If you were okay with it, I would be SOOOOOO happy!

[thrashing_mad]

AHHH Thrashing these units are completely and utterly BEAUTIFUL! Do you think... perhaps... If you were okay with it... Could I use these early units in my mod, Heiðinn Veðr (Heathen Storm) If you were okay with it, I would be SOOOOOO happy!

Thanks. We can talk once I release my mod. However, it will be something bigger than simple rework of Polish roster, so it will take some time.

[Heathen Storm]

Thanks. We can talk once I release my mod. However, it will be something bigger than simple rework of Polish roster, so it will take some time.

Excellent, Thank you!!!! I will add you to my friends and eagerly await the release...

[Legio]

Swietne units
Excellent work thrashing_mad!

[thrashing_mad]

Swietne units
Excellent work thrashing_mad!

Dzięki. More will come in the future.

This is pretty cool, perhaps you could work with the Rzecezpospolita total mod for the early period

Actually, I`ve already made units from period 1560~1600 for PLC, Sweden and Russia. See here. If you will have something substantial made (like map), you could use them.

[Ace_General]

This is pretty cool, perhaps you could work with the Rzecezpospolita total mod for the early period

[danova]

Good job mate, i like it!
.

[Slaytaninc]

A quick question:

What timeframe are these units for?

[thrashing_mad]

A quick question:

What timeframe are these units for?

Around 950-1150.

[Slaytaninc]

Around 950-1150.

Thank you.

Anyways, do you know where I can find information about Poland during the 9th-11th Centuries?

[thrashing_mad]

Thank you.

Anyways, do you know where I can find information about Poland during the 9th-11th Centuries?

Not sure. I was relying mostly on Polish publications, but there should be something interesting in English on the web.

[Wallachian]

Absolutely stunning units! Loved the ones you made for Dominium Mari Baltici also, was sneaking on the forum at work and couldn't stop browsing through the pages, kept saying to myself: ok just one more unit one more unit )

Would we ever see Polish units for XIV-XVth centuries from u?

[kruk84]

Can you show as some new screen ? or information about work progres ?

[Briarius]

These are very, very nice units! Congrat mad! You've got some skills there!