whats the point of firearms?

[adecoy95]

perhaps its just me, but for an armor peircing weapon, firearms do not seem to be doing as many kills as javelins do, and on top of that, mortars and that... other cannon (the one with explosive rounds) rarely hit anything at all, and when they do, half the time the men get right back up!

they are very effective against seige equipment tho, so much so that sometimes, when i sally out with some cannons, ordering them to fire at some units will cause most of the shots to hit the battering ram behind them, like magnets .

is that it then? are they not supposed to be used against infantry at all, and instead be used against seige equipment instead? (they are good at destroying seige equipment, so much so that i kinda regret building cannon towers on my cities since it takes forever for the battles to end when they cant bash down the gate)

[Ruprecht]

Hey,



Not sure about the Firearms effectiveness, but my Catapults and Trebuchet's can't hit a Gatehouse or wall unless they are 20 metres away from it, i once lost a seige battle because 3 units of Catapults coulden't manage to destroy a wooden Gatehouse.


Kind of useless but i thought i would share.

[Ichon]

I avoid siege equipment mainly because it slows an army so much and is not reliable. Some battle it gets several direct hits and other battle hardly any effect.

Firearms though can be very nice. Javelins kill more quickly but then are spent and you have to commit your men to melee. Over a long battle firearms are deadly even at beginning units and later more elite units are very deadly. Firearm units basically seem like heavily armored crossbow with slightly better close range power and not as much long range. I've never made entire army of firearms but as Turks I've come close, there is still a place for cavalry but later in the game they are not quite as powerful though really if you are careful you can achieve almost the same effects, just requires more micro and probably you will have slightly higher losses with your cavalry. It only takes a few cavalry passing too close to some polearms to die. Also later in the game most units have much more armor which is when firearms are able to be more appreciated.

[Gogolometro]

Do you see how morale brake in front of line of fire arms?

[Jean=A=Luc]

Don't forget the guns' morale damage, they're great routers.

[Kawee]

Firearms, especially late-game ones like musketeers, are very useful at killing late-game plate-armour-wearing units, especially those pesky French Lancers. Bows are useless, Xbows, although has AP, does not do enough damage, and firearms also does morale damage. You just need to protect them. That's why people put pikemen in front of them.

As for cannons, I don't use them for anything except for assaulting walls. They are too unreliable in field battles IMHO.

[Cyprexinia]

Don't they shot their own men if you put units in front of gunners?

[JorisofHolland]

Don't they shot their own men if you put units in front of gunners?

Yes, most of time they do. Deploying on a hill fixes this, but it is also possible to put your handgunners between the pikes (two rows), so that they are protected by the pikes, don't hit the pikemen when fireing and can retreat quickly.

[Gogolometro]

Thats about vanilla SS. In RR-RC things are great. In fact is the best way to counter a 5 times more expensive cavalry with cheap pikes and shoot.
No need to explain how huge is morale brake when 10 units of gunners fire at once. If cavalry charge, the pikes will get cavalry at stake.
Ideea is use them wise, are professional unitsvery capable and cheap. In war at begining feudal units keep the lead. Cavary are devastating in charge versus almost any units. But after DFK and feudal mounted knights will get good archers, crossbows, and some usefull mercenarys, like swiss or germans.
In europe, when all factions develop good cavalry, the chance to hold field battles are strategic placements, good combo and win with less casualty and few investments. After 1300, feudal units got almost no chance versus urban units. In fact, only germans, france and teutons can develop feudal and castle units with great eficiency but expensive.
Placing on field urban militia of italians, or halebards, pikes, gunners and xbows, will be very efective against any army.
If you try with europeean army to atack the mighty selucks with no guns and pikes, will be a bad decison.
I suggets all keep it simple. In 1100 use any cavalry you have, even very light, is the way to min most battles, charge. Infantry are support units, cheap and defendenders of skirmishers.
In 1200 use any crossbow or javelin, they are the answer to armored generals and cavalry. Use the two handed and feudal units like decesive blow units. Use catapults and magdonels.
In 1300, get most units from citys, are cheap, fast and very eficient. Is the time when mercenarys have a great influence on battlefield.
After 1300-1450 only pike and shoot armys can win most of battles.

[ediko]

That's what I was gonna ask too. Even my archers and javelins usually hit my men if they are behind them.

[Point Blank]

Try RR/RC, has new volley firing animations and attack values as high as 32 for muskets.

[Coeur de Lion]

Try RR/RC, has new volley firing animations and attack values as high as 32 for muskets.

I wondered where those volley firing animations had come from!! +rep PB they are excellent

[Snelhest]

I have to say that firearms feel near useless when not playing RR/RC. The difficulty of lining them up for a shot and time it takes is simply not wort it most of the time compared to crossbows or good arches, which can actually do something when not in a 2 wide line.
Though the killing power in RR/RC is great and works wonders to take down those super heavy cavalry units.

Gunpowder artillery is just pure awesome though, mostly for sieging purposes however. Having 3 companies of catapults barely scratching a stone wall, and then later using heavy artillery to smash down the enemies citadels is deeply satisfying.

[KngGilgamesh]

Camel Gunners are good, same are Elephant Artilleries, Serpentines, Basilisks.

[hpsauce13]

i never used to use firearms or the big guns (except in siege battles) partly because i dont play late campaign that much and never get there in early, and partly because i found them inaccurate, slow and prone to not getting many kills. but then recently i got into the late period with poland and got the serpentine. boy can it really smash armies to pieces. they are best used against armies with alot of foot soldiers ( usually 3 lines, including archers). just get 3 or four, plant yourself at the back of the map and wait. however the likes of basilisks and organ guns arnt suited to field battles, as their too unaccurate (or just suck in the case of organ guns)

as for firearms i tried polands arbequesbiers a few times werent really worth sacrificing a unit of cavalry or heavy infantry for, however i didnt experiment with them or use them in extended battles so dont trust me too much

[JorisofHolland]

Quick cavalry charges can defeat your pike & shot armies, since they can't respond quickly enough. Rather light cavalry than heavy cavalry seems to be the killer.

[Gogolometro]

Yes and no. You got gunners in front and pikes in back. The spears are in front of muskets at least 1-2 meters. Plus add bullets.

[JorisofHolland]

Yes and no. You got gunners in front and pikes in back. The spears are in front of muskets at least 1-2 meters. Plus add bullets.

I meant being outflanked.

[adecoy95]

i also just now noticed that the cannons that are built on walls will fire at enemy units that are inside the walls, just played out a scenario were the cannons killed over half my swiss guard that were in meele with some spearmen that snuck in the gate while it was still open from some cavalry passing through

[Navajo Joe]

Need to soften them up with an artillery bombardment from Serpentines or any exploding ammo artliiery piece,. Once you break up their formation and effect their morale, a well time cavarly charge will destroy them.